sicce 5.0 vs Mag 12**** testing in progress ****

[Gseclipse02]

im doing a very basic heat comparison on the pumps i filled two five gallon buckets with tap water from the same faucet (started off at about 76 degrees )

Pump info via aqua cave

Model: Syncra 5.0
- All pumps come with ceramic shaft, threaded intake & discharge, flow regulator, and compact size
- 1,321 gallons per hour
- 12.6 feet shut off
- 105 watts / 120 volts
- CE & UL listed
- 3 year warranty
- Comes w/ 6ft. cord
- Pump Dimension:
- Inlet: 1" threaded, Use hose size: 25mm x 32mm
- Outlet: 1" threaded, Use hose size: 21mm x 26.5mm


Mag-Drive 12 Specifications:

- Flow Rate: 1,200 GPH
- Power Consumption: 110 Watts
- Pump Size (L x W x H): 6.4" x 4.5" x 4.6"
- Outlet Size / Inlet Size: 3/4" MPT / 3/4" FPT
- 10` grounded power cord
- 3 year manufacturer`s Limited Warranty

[Gseclipse02]

lets just say after 1.5 hours the results are NOT what i was expecting ...

[Gseclipse02]

after 1.5 hours

mag 12 =82.7 degrees
sicce 5.0 85.5 degrees

[hobogato]

really??!!

[Europhyllia]

how do you adjust for the different flow rates?

[Gseclipse02]

really??!!

promise you lol

[Gseclipse02]

how do you adjust for the different flow rates?

for the extra 121gph im not to sure ..... my next project will be to take my mag 18 off of my 180 and do the same test

[hobogato]

you had them oriented the same way, with the same amount of surface agitation?

[Europhyllia]

I am not sure why that would be so surprising?

One pump pushes 1320 gph the other 1200 gph

So the 1320 pump moves 10% more water.
If the 1200 pump warms the water to 82.7 degrees then 10% more would be 91 degrees.

(this is of course totally simplified - even if the mag would be able to push more water I doubt it would heat it to 90 degrees because much of it is just ambient temperature I am sure ;) )

My point was really just that you are not comparing the same type of output pumps. :)

[StevenSeas]

I am not sure why that would be so surprising?

One pump pushes 1320 gph the other 1200 gph

So the 1320 pump moves 10% more water.
If the 1200 pump warms the water to 82.7 degrees then 10% more would be 91 degrees.

(this is of course totally simplified - even if the mag would be able to push more water I doubt it would heat it to 90 degrees because much of it is just ambient temperature I am sure ;) )

My point was really just that you are not comparing the same type of output pumps. :)

Actually it should just be a 10% increase of the change of temp not the final temp. this is .67 so 83.4 degrees

Also I think it should be more about efficiency of the pump. ie gph/change in T

[Gseclipse02]

you had them oriented the same way, with the same amount of surface agitation?

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/gseclipse02/180g%20tank/IMG_0143.jpg

[Europhyllia]

you're right of course. I didn't see JT gave the starting temp :)

[Gseclipse02]

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/gseclipse02/180g%20tank/IMG_0145.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j11/gseclipse02/180g%20tank/IMG_0146.jpg


im sure some one will say the fitting i have on the mag is the reason for temp differences but yea lol

[StevenSeas]

I am surprised by these results thus far. the sicce uses 5 less watts puts out 121 more gph and more heat, that just doesnt seem like it adds up. I guess it could be due to the better thermal epoxy that sicce uses to remove heat from the pump resulting in warmer water and an overall cooler pump vs a cooler water and warmer mag pump?

[Europhyllia]

let's all buy the heat reducing PVC fitting! lol

Nice experiment. Looking forward to seeing where this is going. :)
Have you considered posting curves?

[Gseclipse02]

let's all buy the heat reducing PVC fitting! lol

Nice experiment. Looking forward to seeing where this is going. :)
Have you considered posting curves?

im in on the fittings lol


what exactly do you mean ?

[Gseclipse02]

these may be better for comparison but i just used what i had ...

mag 7, 700gph
Model 3.0, 714 GPH

[justahobby]

The Mag is running cooler??

Looks like I'm late in the game. That's what I get for opening a page and then walking off before responding.

[StevenSeas]

or mag 9.5, 950 gph
sicce 4.0, 951 gph

Also a head to head comparison on head pressure would be nice instead of just comparing graphs.

[Gseclipse02]

I am surprised by these results thus far. the sicce uses 5 less watts puts out 121 more gph and more heat, that just doesnt seem like it adds up. I guess it could be due to the better thermal epoxy that sicce uses to remove heat from the pump resulting in warmer water and an overall cooler pump vs a cooler water and warmer mag pump?

do you think by making it an external pump it would make a difference? if so ill drill my sump tomorrow if i have time and try to get some results on that

[Europhyllia]

Like this: let's see where this is going. Just by plotting your figures now it looks like the curve for the mag is steeper than the rise for the Sicce so there's still a chance that in a long term experiment the lines will cross. Or maybe not lol Time will tell. :)

http://www.dominopads.com/gseclipse.jpg

[Europhyllia]

these may be better for comparison but i just used what i had ...

mag 7, 700gph
Model 3.0, 714 GPH
The Mag 3.0 is not a good comparison. It's more of a reactor pump than a return pump. Head pressure is much lower than the lower gph rated Sicce 3.5

[StevenSeas]

do you think by making it an external pump it would make a difference? if so ill drill my sump tomorrow if i have time and try to get some results on that

I think it could make a difference. I seem to remember when talking with the rep on these that they are recommended for external but can be used internally very easily. or i could be way off LOL

but instead of drilling your sump you could just run PVC up and over the side of the buckets to the pumps.

[Gseclipse02]

Like this: let's see where this is going. Just by plotting your figures now it looks like the curve for the mag is steeper than the rise for the Sicce so there's still a chance that in a long term experiment the lines will cross. Or maybe not lol Time will tell. :)

http://www.dominopads.com/gseclipse.jpg

i dont think ill have time to do all that...

[Europhyllia]

just give us the temps and the times. I already got the spreadsheet opened ;) (I just read the 2 hour values from the picture)

[Europhyllia]

or just tell us the temps in the morning ;)
all I am saying is the pink line and the yellow line are getting closer to each other.

My idea is that a stronger pump may heat up faster than a weaker pump but that a more efficient pump may have less heat increase over an extended period of time as compared to a less efficient pump.

Could be totally wrong of course :D

[Gseclipse02]

mag= 85.3
sicce=87.9

we can use the time stamps on the post

[Gseclipse02]

or just tell us the temps in the morning ;)
all I am saying is the pink line and the yellow line are getting closer to each other.

My idea is that a stronger pump may heat up faster than a weaker pump but that a more efficient pump may have less heat increase over an extended period of time as compared to a less efficient pump.

Could be totally wrong of course :D


got you i was thinking the same thing kind of but will see in the AM

[Europhyllia]

see I was wrong again already.

I'm going to bed. I'll check in the morning for new numbers :)

[StevenSeas]

well that one just screwed up the pretty graph lol. The sicce increased by 1.7 degrees in that time span v. the .9 that the mag 12 did.

I know you are using the digital probe on the thermometer but are you putting it in the same spot relative to the pump in each case? As far as depth in the water and how close it is to the pump.

[Gseclipse02]

mag= 85.3
sicce=87.9

we can use the time stamps on the post

.8 more of an increase on the sicce


i was thinking about this also these results could be way off due to being used pumps ? i just got the 5.0 from ace and he used it as a return i used my mag as a salt mixer ...


think that might have an effect ?

[Gseclipse02]

well that one just screwed up the pretty graph lol. The sicce increased by 1.7 degrees in that time span v. the .9 that the mag 12 did.

I know you are using the digital probe on the thermometer but are you putting it in the same spot relative to the pump in each case? As far as depth in the water and how close it is to the pump.



could be off a few inch's there close to the top at the beginning my mag almost ate the probe lol

[StevenSeas]

Ya I bet in a 5 gallon bucket it wouldnt even make too much of a difference except maybe keeping the depth the same? IDK thinking bout it now I dont know how much of an effect it would have.

on a side note I dont think I have seen a thread grow this fast

[Gseclipse02]

Ya I bet in a 5 gallon bucket it wouldnt even make too much of a difference except maybe keeping the depth the same? IDK thinking bout it now I dont know how much of an effect it would have.

on a side note I dont think I have seen a thread grow this fast


you haven't read one of the politic threads than lol

[Europhyllia]

I think it's cool. We are about to learn something here. :)

[Gseclipse02]

I think it's cool. We are about to learn something here. :)

when i get broad at work im going to look at all the pumps we sell and try to find a few different pumps that are near the same GPH and compare them all

[alton]

I have a current meter here at work, it may be interesting to see if they both draw the amperage/watts they advertise? Also it would be interesting to put both in a 100 gallon tank run a hose up 6' and plug them into a switched outlet (which I have) and see which one fills up a 5 gallon bucket first? I know for a fact that a mag12 will not be close to that 1200GPH. Sometimes I get bored too.

[hobogato]

very cool stuff here folks, thanks for starting this jt!

[Europhyllia]

I have a current meter here at work, it may be interesting to see if they both draw the amperage/watts they advertise? Also it would be interesting to put both in a 100 gallon tank run a hose up 6' and plug them into a switched outlet (which I have) and see which one fills up a 5 gallon bucket first? I know for a fact that a mag12 will not be close to that 1200GPH. Sometimes I get bored too.

As soon as I woke up I thought: oh I can't wait to hear what alton has to say about this! lol

[CoryDude]

.i was thinking about this also these results could be way off due to being used pumps ? i just got the 5.0 from ace and he used it as a return i used my mag as a salt mixer ...


think that might have an effect ?

Possibly...


I have a current meter here at work, it may be interesting to see if they both draw the amperage/watts they advertise? Also it would be interesting to put both in a 100 gallon tank run a hose up 6' and plug them into a switched outlet (which I have) and see which one fills up a 5 gallon bucket first? I know for a fact that a mag12 will not be close to that 1200GPH. Sometimes I get bored too.

I'd be interested, too, to see if there's any resistance thats upping the force needed to turn the impellors? That would result in an increased wattage. Wonder if the results would be different with pumps right out of the box?

I measured my mag 12 at 6ft of head pressure and the amount was about 800gph, nowhere near the amount they advertised.

[Gseclipse02]

time =130 AM

sicce 91.8
mag 89.1

[Gseclipse02]

right now
sicce 96.3
mag 93.2

[Europhyllia]

I measured my mag 12 at 6ft of head pressure and the amount was about 800gph, nowhere near the amount they advertised.
Wow that sucks! I noticed the Sicce spec sheets actually showed lower rates than the Mag advertised but perhaps the mag rates include more wishful thinking then?

[CoryDude]

Yeah, I tested them at 4ft, 5ft, and 6ft heads when I was setting up the Hiatt. The graph on the spec sheet was at least 100-175gph off from what was actually being moved. But, I believe they were testing the flow through 1" piping instead of the 3/4" I was using, so that factors in a little also.

Still, this is a pretty cool thread JT.

[Europhyllia]

http://www.dominopads.com/siccecomp.jpg

[StevenSeas]

Karin how are you doing that graph and inserting it? It looks way diff than the one I have set up in excel...

[Europhyllia]

Karin how are you doing that graph and inserting it? It looks way diff than the one I have set up in excel...
it's possible I plugged in a number wrong.

here's what I got:
11341

my formulary for the imaginary 1320 mag is (mag12 value - 76) * 1.1 +76

[StevenSeas]

ah i see what it is. your units of time are just 1 even though more or less time may have elapsed.

[Europhyllia]

correct. I am just looking at how close yellow and pink are getting. Not trying to fill in the gaps of no reporting at all. :)
If you are going through more effort for this feel free to post yours instead :)

[StevenSeas]

this is what I got. http://i932.photobucket.com/albums/ad161/aggiereefer12/siccevmag.jpg

[ErikH]

I wonder what the true power draw is on those two pumps you are testing, not related to manufacturers specs, but our own.

[Big_Pun]

wouldn't a better test be to just put it on your tank for a week each, and chart temps. I think a small body of water on those big pimps is an inaccurate test, who would use a pump that big to move 5 gallons of water.

[ErikH]

I would think it would be more accurate due to less volume of liquid. A larger body of water, especially a tank with halides, would make the test wrong. Running them side by side is the only way to go because the conditions are exactly the same. :D

[Europhyllia]

The real question now is: how much water are they really moving (each) and how much power are they using?

[ErikH]

****KILL-A-WATT****

It's that time JT!

[Big_Pun]

I would think it would be more accurate due to less volume of liquid. A larger body of water, especially a tank with halides, would make the test wrong. Running them side by side is the only way to go because the conditions are exactly the same. :D

isn't that what I said? using them in the same tank, would be a controlled test.

[Europhyllia]

but different ambient temp, etc. (other factors could play into it)

[StevenSeas]

isn't that what I said? using them in the same tank, would be a controlled test.

There is just too many variables that play into it to attribute it just to a pump. Also with it being a scale test (just like how mythbusters do it :wink_smile: ) you are able to say that any variables affecting one affected the other. The only difference would be the pumps. Also by doing some math one should be able to figure out how much heat one of these pumps would add to a 100 gallon tank, something they are more likely to be used on.

[Gseclipse02]

isn't that what I said? using them in the same tank, would be a controlled test.

the big one for me is outside temps ....

[Europhyllia]

okay enough chit chat. We need Alton to undertake some serious testing now!

[kkiel02]

Wow great thread JT! Anyone want to trade two 5.0s for some mag drives? JK BTW

Next I say we do Tunze vs Koralia vs Vortech. I had to throw the Vortech in there even though I hate them because its their claim to fame, which ought to make sense having their driver on the outside and all.

[Big_Pun]

Wow great thread JT! Anyone want to trade two 5.0s for some mag drives? JK BTW

Next I say we do Tunze vs Koralia vs Vortech. I had to throw the Vortech in there even though I hate them because its their claim to fame, which ought to make sense having their driver on the outside and all.

nothing compares to vortech!!!! lol

[SoLiD]

Nothing compares to the noise of a vortech... nice powerheads, but loud... That's why I prefer the Tunze 6055, 6105, 6205, and 6305. Dead Silent. :)

[alton]

For testing JT what about Saturday morning at Jasons? I also have a 100 gallon tub that I can fill up and setup a couple of buckets at my house for testing, let me know.