Lights (again)

[falcondob]

Sorry folks. I know this has been answered in about 10,000 ways, but I would like your opinion on the lights on my system.

I know I am going to add another 400 watts VHO actinic. The questions concern the metal halides. It is time to change the bulbs. I am trying to decide whether or not to modify the type, wattage, and color of the MHs.
I have currently the following:

Tank
300gal GlassCages (96 long x 30 wide x 25 tall)
Shallow sand bed (1/2 to 1 inch of special reef grade sand).
Enclosed hood with 4 - 100 cfm fans, set to temp controller

Lights
4 – 110W Super Actinic VHO (11 hours a day)
6 – Metal Halides, arranged in the hood as follows:

250w/10k | 400w/20k | 250w/10k | 250w/10k | 400w/20k | 250w/10k (all SE)

250Ws are ARO Electronic Ballast, 400Ws are on a Dual PFO Mag Ballast
These are turned in sequence, every 15 min, then on for 6 hours, then off in sequence, every 15 min.

My main emphasis is on SPS. I want growth, but not at the expense of having all brown colored corals.

So....given that...

I have the follow questions looking for opinions:

Stay with SE (mogul) or go to DE (double-ended)?
Upgrade all to 400 watts? 1000watts (only 4)?
Magnetic vs Electronic, besides cost and versatility, does one or
the other give better spectrum and/or bulb life?
In any case, what temperature (k) should the bulbs be?
Can any electronic ballast drive an Iwasaki 6500K?
I don't seem to find 6500K DE bulbs. Do they even make them?

I also still have some frags to trade for bulbs.

Thanks in advance,

John

[mathias]

I have 2 400 watt lights on my 6 foot tank and I always think I should go down to 250 do you see more growth under the 400 than you do the 250...

[mathias]

and also with the 20k bulbs I don't understand having the actnics? is it really that important?

[GaryP]

and also with the 20k bulbs I don't understand having the actnics? is it really that important?

20K = 460 nm light (blue), little SPS pigment production

actinic = 420 nm (violet), good pigment production

John, I was just getting to this point when we talked on the phone the other day. For a tank that deep I would suggest at least 125 watts/sq. ft. That comes out to around 2500 watts. You are around 2200 watts now, so you are in the ball park. Like I told you, going to a higher PAR bulb instead of the 20K will help some.

[TexasTodd]

Hey John, you don't mention what brand of bulbs you are currently using.

This matters A LOT. The "K" rating means little as each manufacturer just puts whatever rating they want on their bulb. :o

Todd

[falcondob]

Hey John, you don't mention what brand of bulbs you are currently using.

This matters A LOT. The "K" rating means little as each manufacturer just puts whatever rating they want on their bulb. :o

Todd

Thanks to everyone for responding. I emailed with Mike Paletta 8) and he believes that I will see significantly more growth with 400s over 250s. Interestingly, he didn't mention Kelvin value, so I emailed him back. When I hear from him I will post his opinion.

Gary, if I go with all 400s and add 400 more in actinic, this is what I should have -- 2400 in MH + 800 in actinic = 3200 watts total. The breaks down to 10.67 watts per gallon or 160 watts per square foot. (the tank is 30 wide x 96 long = 20 sq ft. It is 24 inch deep, I may have told you 24 wide, 30 deep. :wacko )

Todd, when you are right, you are right! >_< Forgot all about the bulb maker. I just got a 400W CoralVue 20K and it is blue. Not blueish, but blue. The XM 20K on the other 400 fixture is, however, not distinguishably different from the XM 250W 10k. Until last week, all the bulbs were 4-XM 250 SE 10k and 2-XM 400 SE 20k.

What bulbs in 250W and 400W (both DE and SE) would you recommend?

What started this discussion is that all of a sudden my SPS growth has slowed to a crawl. All params are nominal (Ca is a liitle low at 400, dKh is 11.5), so the only variable I can think of is the lights. All the bulbs will be 12 months in about 2-3 months. Gary suggessted the lights and a more consistent dosing of 2-part.

Also, Todd, I have an opportunity to get some Luminarcs. Are they really worth the money?

Thanks again.
John

[thedude]

Coralvue Reefllux 10k's for growth. They're all the rage on RC right now and I can back those statements up. I've seen more growth in 2 weeks with these bulbs then I did for a year with a Giesseman 20k. Interestingly enough, I also noticed that Frederick at Coral Reef Bazaar has them locally!

John

[thedude]

Coralvue Reefllux 10k's for growth. They're all the rage on RC right now and I can back those statements up. I've seen more growth in 2 weeks with these bulbs then I did for a year with a Giesseman 20k. Interestingly enough, I also noticed that Frederick at Coral Reef Bazaar has them locally!

John

PS: Forgot to add. The bulbs are white with a hint of blue unlike XM 10k's which to me look far too yellow.

[falcondob]

Coralvue Reefllux 10k's for growth. They're all the rage on RC right now and I can back those statements up. I've seen more growth in 2 weeks with these bulbs then I did for a year with a Giesseman 20k. Interestingly enough, I also noticed that Frederick at Coral Reef Bazaar has them locally!

John

Are these SE or DE bulbs? 250w or 400w? What brand and type of ballast?Where is Coral Reef Bazaar? (pardon my continuing ignorance) How do they compare in cost to XM, Radium, or Ushio?

John

[thedude]

Ok,

They currently make both SE and DE bubls but Sanjay Joshi has only reviewed the SE version of them as of present. Results of his tests can be seen here http://www.reeflightinginfo.arvixe.com/

I personally still like Magnetic ballasts. Although they consume more electricity and produce lots of heat, I think they drive the bulbs harder producing a more energy.

Coral Reef Bazaar is an online site operated by a MAAST member Polkster. His website is www.coralreefbazaar.com . Before I knew he carried these bulbs, I ordered mine from www.acropora.net

Cost on these bulbs is actually really good at about 65 a bulb.

John

[falcondob]

Ok,

Coral Reef Bazaar is an online site operated by a MAAST member Polkster. His website is www.coralreefbazaar.com . Before I knew he carried these bulbs, I ordered mine from www.acropora.net

Cost on these bulbs is actually really good at about 65 a bulb.

John

Thanks for the info and links. I will certainly visit each one. I knew that Polkster had a lighting company, I just didn't know (or remember, senior moment, don't ya know).

Take care,
John

[NaCl_H2O]

John, you know you are asking the single most "IMO" question in reefkeeping ... so I'll add my #0.02 worth, IMO ;)

I once ran 3x400w 6500K Iwasaki's. Good growth, but coloration is horrible (Yellow) and coral coloration suffered. You would have to pour a ton of actinic at the 6500s to get anything decent, IMO. The PFO mag ballast wil drive the 6500K Iwasaki's. I believe 6500s only come in SE.

I am trying out a CoralVue ReefLux 10k 400w, and I am about to pull it out. This bulb is really blue, IMO.

400w 10Ks: I have now run CoralVue, Ushio, and Hamilton; Hamilton is probably my favorite so far - but still not ideal. I was hoping the CV ReefFlux was going to be the answer ... but it isn't for me.

IMO 250w in a 25" deep tank with a 1" sandbed isn't enough - I would go to all 400w.

Mag vs. Electronic: I am running all PFO Mag ballasts. I bought an electronic 400w and tried it out - I didn't see any difference with my Hamilton 10K Mogul bulbs. Also, the Electronic messed up by X10 controls.

SE vs DE: I have no experience with DE, but lots of folks like them. Remember, DE bulbs require a glass filter for UV.

Hope that helps some?

[brewercm]

From my experience so far between DE and SE. The coloration of the 10K XM was very different, much brighter light with the DE's but much more yellow. Unfortunately that's the only difference I can state so far since those are the only two of the same bulb, same K rating I used in different types.

[falcondob]

John, you know you are asking the single most "IMO" question in reefkeeping ... so I'll add my #0.02 worth, IMO ;)

Yes, I know. But even in the most contentious of discussions, there is usually a thread of commonality. Hope springs eternal. :angel


Hope that helps some?

Absolutely. One of the few advantages of getting older is the loss of bravado the prevents you from admitting ignorance and allows to accept and use every bit of information you can get. (Especially, at the price of aquarium lights. Ouch, ouch, OUCH!)

Thanks for input Steve.
John

[falcondob]

From my experience so far between DE and SE. The coloration of the 10K XM was very different, much brighter light with the DE's but much more yellow. Unfortunately that's the only difference I can state so far since those are the only two of the same bulb, same K rating I used in different types.

Thanks. I appreciate the comments and I can concur with your observation of the XM 10k DE and SE. The 10k XM DE is the only double-ended bulb I have had and I didn't have it very long.

I keep reading that bulb for bulb the par of the DE is greater than that of the same SE. So, I keep reading.......

John

[Henry]

here is my experience with lights and equipment. More so on the equipment side. I have 2-250watt se 20k and 2-250watt se 10k. All bulbs are XM. I have two aro electronic ballast and a mag pfo dual ballast. I have a one 20k and one 10k on the pfo and a similar pair on the electronic ballast. The pfo ballast side looks dimmer. I have switched the bulbs to the other ballast with the same results. I'm looking to replace the pfo ballast soon.

[thedude]

Yeah I'll admit that the Reeflux are sort of blue. For me, that's an added bonus, as I like the blueish tint to the water much better than a yellow one. To each his own I suppose. One other thing that I hate about XM are their quality control issues. One batch of bulbs will be great and have a great color, then the next batch is all crap.

[falcondob]

Yeah I'll admit that the Reeflux are sort of blue. For me, that's an added bonus, as I like the blueish tint to the water much better than a yellow one. To each his own I suppose. One other thing that I hate about XM are their quality control issues. One batch of bulbs will be great and have a great color, then the next batch is all .

Yes, unfortunately, that is a common thread I am finding. Lots of people leaving them for that exact reason. I personally had one, not just die, but died where I heard it upstairs. I expected to come downstairs and find metal halide body parts strewn across my aquascape. Luckily, it just barely held together in its death throes.

John

[TexasTodd]

Hmmm, I'd say my Reeflux 10k's are NOT very blue. Are you sure Steve that you have the Reeflux and not the std. 10k? I hope they don't start running in to color temp variations like the XMs have!

Gary and I had a talk about this on Friday morning.

I keep trying and trying, eventhough I know better, to find that perfect bulb! In acuality the best thing to do is find the best MIX of bulbs. Especially if you have the opportunity with a larger tank.

Here's what I'm going to use. 2x400w Reeflux on HQI pfo ballast in LumenArcIII reflectors (and yes John IMO they are worth every penny), 2x250w XM 10k on HQI ballasts, 1x400w "not sure yet" on std mag ballast, 2x72" VHO and 1x48"VHO.

The only "what if" is that if these darn XM10k's keep breaking, I'll switch the 250's to DE pendants from Sunlight Supply ReefoptixIII+'s and either the AB 10kk or the HIT BLV 10k. More expensive but good 420nm still, but not as much as the xm's have.

Todd

[GaryP]

Todd,

Didn't you used to use Ushios on your corner tank? If so, what was your experience with them?

[TexasTodd]

The Ushios are good bulbs IMO. The growth was the best of any bulb I've used. I had great yellows, oranges, pinks, and blues.

My purples, teals, and greens were not good under Ushios. But, these colors show best with VHO 03 so the Ushio 03 combo should be a pretty good set up. The Ushios are expensive though although I've NEVER had one go bad on me inside a year. I did see noticable changes though, when going 12 months on Ushio and then changing to a new bulb, which leads me to believe they are better switched out at something less than one year.

Todd

[GaryP]

Thanks for your input Todd. What time frame would you recommend for bulb change out on Ushios? That definitely needs to be input into my cost vs. benefit calculations.

I am planning on using at least 440 watts of VHO actinic on the new tank. I may bump that to 660 watts.

[TexasTodd]

I wish I knew Gary. I never tried any less.

I didn't loose any corals on switching out at 12 months, but the colors would improve pretty quickly upon a switchout.....a noticable change.

Todd

[NaCl_H2O]

Todd, it is definately a ReeFlux! Mark (The Other Guy) was here and saw it - he was quite surprised too since he just started running ReeFlux 12Ks (250w I think) and my 10K 400w look bluer????

[TexasTodd]

I'd return that bulb Steve. Mine are very close to an XM 10kk look.

This is what others on RC have seen too. Although I and most run them on HQI ballasts so that could change the color. No way at all would I call these "blue" looking.

Todd

[thedude]

I have a DE version of the 10k Reeflux and it looks white with a blue tint. XM bubls just look flat yellow to me and I don't care what kind of growth you get with them. You have to flood so your tank with so much supplemental lighting that it's not worth it to me. In DE bulbs, I really like the BLV bulbs and AB bulbs like Texas Todd suggested and actually like the Aqua Connect bulbs the best. The main problem with them is their Giesseman-esque price tag.

Yeah I've not seen a reeflux bulb look yellow yet. I've seen them look rather blue before burn in and if you watch when the bulb fires, it starts out HUGELY blue and whitens out as it brightens. I run a magnetic ballast.

John

[TroyPham]

i've used ushio's on my tank for years and love them. they produced the whitest of all the bulbs i tryed with no failures. i'm gonna try hamilton bulbs on the new tank but 6.5k's for growth along with t5's and vho actinics. i think with the combo is should give me good growth and color. if the hamilton's don't work well i'm gonna switch back to ushio 10k's

i currently have 3 new de ushio 10k's for $69 if anyone wants.

my lighting on the new tank will consist of

2-250se 6.5k mh 4hrs
1-400se 6.5k mh 5hrs
4-54wt t5 2 blue plus and 2 10k 8hrs
2-110wt 03 vho's 12hrs

thats my current plans.
if the 400 is to much i'll switch it to a 250