Looking Into Non-Photosynthetic Coral Propagation

[leliataylor]

A friend of mine in Beaverton, Or made a suggestion of propagating corals off the effluent of my seahorse fry tanks. I have a 60 gallon growout tank, connected to a 46 gallon sump and two 20 gallon nursery tubs in the system. The fry tanks and growout tank receive pods and BBS, depending on the age of the fry and live larval mysis. His suggestion was to drain the fry tanks into a frag tank, then into the main sump and back into the growout tank. I was thinking of starting with something I have kept before like zoas or rics, however he is really big on acans. Still in the design/build phase and was looking for suggestions. I love corals and have kept them in the past, however have never had the time, before now, to dedicate myself to this venture. Any suggestions, opinions or criticism is welcome. P.S. I can afford a bottle of vodka. LOL

[Dean]

Making use of the uneaten live food is an excellent idea. How many times per day do you have to feed these little guys?
If I had the opportunity and means for an NPS I would look into a few of the Gorgonians that need constant feeding such as the Yellow Finger and Blueberry Gorg as well as some NPS softies like the Carnation and Flower Tree corals. Maybe a Sea Apple or two?

[leliataylor]

The fry get fed every 3 hours so there is a constant source of food. The way the nurseries are set up the live food gets slowly flushed into the sump. Right now it ends up wasted in a filter sock. I am going to start slow with corals that are easy since it has been years since I have kept any.

I love your suggestions of gorgs, carnation, flower tree and sea apples. Down the road I would like to set up another system that would house photosynthetic softies like nephthea and some of the other species of gorgs.

I took down the nurseries yesterday that were plugged into the system I plan to use. Now I need to finish building a taller stand so the frag tanks can sit underneath the nurseries. I already have everything I need it just takes time to clean everything and put it all together.

I will post pics once I have everything in place.

[leliataylor]

I spent about a hour on the phone yesterday talking with Scott Fellman. He was very informative and made some additional suggestions like sympodium, sinularia, tubipora and nephthea for photosynthetic corals. Too many choices and not enough cash. It looks like I am going to need to set up tanks for NPS and PS softies. I am going to take my time and start slow with a few frags and see how they do. I really hate killing things. I do love some of the corals Reefgen is producing.

[Dean]

Live Aquaria always has some really nice NPS also.

[leliataylor]

Actually I have decided to start with easy softies that like moderate light and flow. When I started to put the system together the light came on. The system I am currently working on will get some indirect sunlight, whereas the other system I am planning is on a back wall and receives no sunlight. Changing my plans, again.

[Dean]

I'm breaking down a tank that is loaded with Xenia, some anthelia, and a green nepthea mini colony that I would like to donate to your endeavor to thank you for your presentation you will be having for the club next weekend. Let me know if you're interested and I will bring it with me.

[leliataylor]

Dean I would love to take them in. It really is too generous, although I would pass it forward. I do have a cycled system that would support them and have a LED arriving tomorrow. I also have some T5's laying around and some PC's.

[Dean]

Awesome. It's all yours. The Xenia is being scraped from the back pane of the tank which won't hurt it but it will have to reattach to rock or something in your tank. I will send you pics tomorrow.

[leliataylor]

Thank you for the softies Dean. They are opening up nicely and lovely.

[Dean]

You're welcome. :)

[leliataylor]

Got a great shot of one of your shrooms. Will post it asap.

[Dean]

The goldish one on the big rock had interesting color. :)
The blueish green one is huge!

[leliataylor]

The goldish one on the big rock had interesting color. :)
The blueish green one is huge!


Dean I keep finding mushrooms everywhere. There is one that is red with bluish stripes radiating from the the mouth (lower left corner of the pic below).

Any here is the big guy.

[Dean]

👍

[Justin]

I like the concept. I ran a NPS tank for awhile due to curiosity and what not. Similar to what Dean proposed, there are tons of corals you can use to help consume the excess nutrients. When it comes to corals, practically anything will love the extra nutrients. The problem is the effect of the extra nutrients, from your presentation it sounds like your are pretty religious with your tank maintenance. For starters, I would propose the following:

Gorgonians- Both non photo and photo will like the nutrients. If you put a simple T5 light, you can offer up the min light they would need to conduct photosynthesis. Most of the food will be live caught anyway

Mushrooms/ Zoas/ Acans- same as photo corals, they will thrive in the nutrient rich waters

Leathers- these guys will absorb all of the nice nutrient byproducts in the tank. I've seen some sumps with just xenias for export!

[leliataylor]

I agree the goldish one is very cool. What is with the big dark one under the overhang on the big rock?

The finger leather is really starting extend itself as well.

The top of the big rock reminds me of a flower garden. Is that sympodium on the opposite side of the big rock from the GSP?

I feel like a kid in a candy store.

[leliataylor]

Thanks so much for the info Justin. It coincides with what I have been reading and others have advised me. I want to get some gorgs, acans, additional zoas and leathers, however I will wait until the corals I got from Dean are well established. I have a couple of other systems that I could place a inline frag tank on. First I need to learn more and improve my skills.

Adding frag tanks inline with nursery tubs seems like a win win for the fry and the coral. The fry provide food for the coral and in exchange the coral reduces the nutrient load on the system. It fits into the same principle of having live mysis in nurseries. The shrimp help keep the tubs clean by consuming excess food and supply the fry with live food.

[Dean]

I agree the goldish one is very cool. What is with the big dark one under the overhang on the big rock?

The finger leather is really starting extend itself as well.

The top of the big rock reminds me of a flower garden. Is that sympodium on the opposite side of the big rock from the GSP?

I feel like a kid in a candy store.

Not sure which big dark one you may be referring to.

The blue polyps are called blue snowflake polyps. I think they are very pretty. Some don't like them because spread quickly but I am a fan.

Did the Elephant slug make the trip okay? I've had that big guy for a couple of years. Very neat and very harmless. He's a great algae eater.

[leliataylor]

You made me laugh at myself when you asked about the Elephant slug. When I first saw the dart coloration on the rock a Sunday morning I thought it was just that, dark coloration on the rock. Today it was much larger so I knew it was alive. I just pulled out a high powered pen light and it is the Elephant slug. It looks like a beautiful piece of black velvet and is very much alive. It is now moving out from underneath the overhang and I will try to get a picture of it. There is also a bumble bee snail in there.

[Dean]

He is a super neat critter! It's a shame you usually only see him at night.

[leliataylor]

The only times I have seen him is when I am running actinics, the rest of the time he stays hidden. Tell me what I need to do to keep him happy.

[Dean]

Absolutely nothing. He just grazes on the micro algae on the rock work and glass. He was about the size of a dime when I got him. He's a big ol thing now. :)

[leliataylor]

He is more like silver dollar or larger size now.

[leliataylor]

The Elephant slug still seems to be very happy, although I have not be able to get a picture of him. I did rearrange the location of some of the corals today. The anthelia and nephthea were not looking like I liked. They are already looking much better, although my clown fish were nipping my fingers while I was working on the tank.

A couple of pics of the nippers and corals.

[leliataylor]

Hey Dean, the finger leather is extending its polyps and the zoas have opened up nicely. What is the zoa colony on the big rock that has a teal colored ring (large polyps)? Very pretty. I decided to supplement them with Reef Roids since there are only two fish in the tank at the moment. Also, any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I did buy a programmable LED fixture for the tank and it will arrive on Saturday.

[Dean]

Those are morphed Wow Palythoas. They didn't like the original lighting and never really took on there full color. They will take food items as large as small pellets and mysis so if you wish to feed them you have a few options. :)

I'm glad everything is thriving for you. There are 5 or six different types of palys and zoas on that big rock along with several different mushrooms.

[leliataylor]

Thank you for your response. All but one of the mushrooms opened. The slow shroom finally opened up today. I had to laugh at the finger leather and the anthelia, they were both reaching for the sky and waving today. I still keep finding more zoas and palys on the big rock that I did not realize were there. I am up to 6 right now.

Another question. Is the large colony of brown zoas with green centers a protopaly? It looks just like this. http://www.saltyunderground.com/images/Protopaly_close_up_B_3_25_12.jpg

Since I introduced the corals to the tank my clowns are upfront all day long and keep trying to chase my hand away. I guess I am going to have to set my QT back up and get them their own nem, along with a few more fish.

[Dean]

Yes those are a type of protopaly. Commonly known as Green Button Palys. There was a rhodactis mushroom that was too close to them and stinging them which kept them closed up for a while causing them to loose most of their green coloration. They will green back up though. They like to be fed the same foods as the Wow palys.

[leliataylor]

I was able to break off the rock they were on the first day and moved them to another rock. They are beautiful with a bright green oral disc and surrounding tissue. The shroom in question is the one that finally opened up today.

It looks like I am going to need to setup my QT again. The clowns need a nem and the corals need more fish.

[leliataylor]

Here is the picture of Larry The Limpet that I promised, hanging out under a rock overhang. A head of the WOW paly morph and a hitch hiker (I think) on the smaller rock near the big mushroom. I will try to get some pics of the protopalys, they are really bright green.

[leliataylor]

Dean this is all your fault. I bought your corals a nice LED fixture and built a mounting bracket to hold it. The ceilings in that room are vaulted and I wasn't into trying to hang a light over a existing tank. The finger leather took one look at the new light, raised its arms in the air and gave me a show of polyp extension I had not seen before, as did several others.

[Dean]

Haha. That's great! I'm glad they are doing well for you Cheryl.

[Davie118]

Its entertaining reading your posts about your excitement over the coal :)

[leliataylor]

It has been over 10 years since I have kept any corals. Got so focused on seahorses I had no time for corals. I still love them and it is fun to see the advancements in coral propagation. 10+ years ago people were struggling to keep acros alive. Back when I first started corals were next to impossible to grow. Once I got better at corals I moved to the world of seahorses. A friend of mind, told me not to long ago, if you can raise seahorse fry you can raise many other genera. That is the joy of working in this field. Things we could not raise or were considered difficult to raise can now be propagated. I truly love the advancements we have made in captive breeding programs. It is because of the hard work by dedicated people that we now have aquacultured species available.

[leliataylor]

Hey Dean I told you they turned green.

Also I have renamed the spaghetti leather to "Fuzzy" finger leather (and it is not because the photo is fuzzy).

[Dean]

Everything is acclimating very well to your tank Cheryl. I'm glad they are doing well for you. :)

[leliataylor]

A couple of questions. pH is 8.2 day and night, dKH is 7, PO4 is 0, NO2 is 0, NO3 is 30, NH3 is 0. Had two small areas that developed cyano which is in remission and some bryopsis developed on the Wow palys, which is also almost gone. My questions are the finger leather likes to raise up with higher flow as do the mushrooms. The palys are extending beautifully. I am running two powerheads on the tank and alternating their flow. What was the system you kept them in like i.e. flow and circulation and what were your water parameters?

[Davie118]

Pretty sure he had your stuff in the 29 gallon biocube. Just a return and 1 powerhead i believe.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

[Dean]

They were in my 29 gallon Biocube. Stock return pump and an additional 500 gph circ pump. Flow could have been described as moderate. As far as parameters. I only checked when the tank told me to. Lol. Not often. I did keep up religiously with water changes but also had a heavy bio load.

[leliataylor]

Another question. I am starting to get a true bryopsis outbreak. I am carbon dosing, however it will take some time to be truly effective. I am considering magnesium dosing. What are the implications of carbon dosing and magnesium dosing simultaneously?

[Davie118]

http://www.3reef.com/threads/bryopsis-learn-what-it-is-and-how-to-kill-it.100365/
I started reading this as I did not know what bryopsis was. Idk if this helps.

Sent from my LGLS740 using Tapatalk

[Dean]

Bryopsis is probably the only outbreak that I never had to deal with in that tank. I'm sorry to hear it has made its way into your system. Carbon may remove the elements in TechM that are effective in killing off bryopsis. I would stop running carbon until you are know longer battling the bryopsis. Or are you referring to carbon dosing such as vodka dosing?

[leliataylor]

Thank you and yes it does. Right now it is still very small, however it is not the soft GHA that is easily removed. I ordered some Kent Tech M and it will be here on Thursday. This stuff is tenacious. I need to knock it down before it gets out of control.

[leliataylor]

Dean, I am vodka dosing.

Right now it is only on the paly frag plug and on the Fire and Ice zoa colony. It is less than 1/4 of a inch long.

[Dean]

I have no experience with carbon dosing. Hopefully someone can chime in and help you out. Bill S are you around sir?

[Justin]

I have tried both Carbon dosing and Bio Pellets before in my tanks. I also am dealing with a case of Bryopsis that has been unchecked for the last couple of weeks due to a house move and my tank still at my old house. Back to your questions:

The Vodka dosing is similar to vinegar dosing that I have done in past. Mainly, you are providing a food source for bacteria to consume your nitrates in your tank. I think there is something called the bacteria cycle where bacteria consume 4 parts NO4 and 1 part PO4 when they consume a carbon source. By skimming them out, you get rid of their byproduct and them, thus allowing stronger individuals to breed in your tank and further consume your DOC's.

There shouldn't be a problem with you dosing both Mg and Vodka in your tank to your inhabitants. Just note, that the Mg actually doesn't do anything to the Bryopsis in your tank. There is an excess additive in Tech M that is known to take out Bryopsis. It has worked for me but in a limited fashion. The problems with Bryopsis are many but here are a few:



The stuff is extremely strong and very resilient and able to feed off of the smallest amounts of NO4 and PO4 and reduced lighting
Once it takes root in your system, it's next to **** near impossible to wipe out. You will always be dealing with remnants in your tank for as long as you keep your current system to include; rocks, livestock, plumbing and equipment. The stuff has an amazing ability to withstand extreme measures and come back to life. I nuked my rocks and started with clean sand and what not, and it still came back. I was able to keep it back with a foxface rabbitfish, great CUC and Tech M.
The amount you dose with Tech M is insane. The largest size on Amazon retails for like $35! I went through 3 of them on a 40 breeder with a 10 gallon sump
Make sure you take your carbon out of the system as the carbon will filter the actual chemical that weakens Bryopsis out of your tank.
I read on several forums where H2O2 works, let me tell you it doesn't really work that well. It ****es off your coral for a bit and does kill lesser algae but Bryopsis is the Juggernaut of Algae


The website I link below is a calculator that helps figure out how much to dose in your tank to reach a safe level. I would suggest you slowly build up to a Mg of about 1800-1900. When I dosed that much, I saw no ill effects on any of my livestock. Once you have Mg at that level, you need to keep it there for about 3-4 weeks. Once it starts to hit week 3, you should notice the Bryopsis changing from a dark green to a very light green to eventually bleach white and die off. It is at this point, you really need to be on top of your mechanical filtration, any remaining fragment will eventually add to your DOC and be food for any bryopsis spore remnants.

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

I wish you the best of luck. I myself, will go to battle soon on my Bryopsis problem when I move my corals over to my new tank. Everything will be new but because remnants will be on my coral frags and I don't want to cut my coral bases, I will probably have an outbreak again if I don't watch my DOC's. The beauty in this beast is that if you see if re-emerging, you can guarantee that your NO4 and PO4 levels are high enough to allow it grow.

[Davie118]

I realize now that my 20 gallon tank had bryopsis. I have the same rock in my 125 now but I killed and recycled that rock. I was constantly pulling that stuff off. I thought it was just maco algae that got in the tank.

[leliataylor]

Thank you all for your replies. Thank you Justin for the link and the info. Right now my PO4 is at 0 with a new Salifert kit. Used the same kit on another tank just to check it and it read .1 ppm. My NO3 is slowly dropping and I am already skimming wet. I have also reduced the light cycle and increased the flow. Currently I am running a 100 micron filter sock on the tank and may switch it out to a 50 micron filter pad. I will also do another water change today. This morning the longer strands on the frag plug are turning brownish, so I am heading in the right direction.

I have dealt with this stuff before which is why I am jumping on it. Once it takes off there is no stopping it. Years ago I bought a used tank, bleached it and let it dry in the sun. It had a history of bryopsis. Set the tank up with dry rock and dry sand. Within 2 months I had a fuzzy green tank.

[leliataylor]

The Kent Tech M arrived today and I did the initial treatment. Nitrates are down to 15 (I am going to get another brand of nitrate test kit for comparison) and PO4 is still at 0. I won't say this stuff is in remission, however it is not spreading and the growth rate has slowed. The Vodka dosing is driving my skimmer nut, which is what should be happening.

On the plus side, getting up close on a mushroom.

[leliataylor]

It is working. The nuisance algae is turning brown and slowly melting and the corals are all looking much better again.
Current parameters are Dkh 9.6 (slowly bringing it down), Alk is also high at 3.42, Ca=380, PO4=0, Mg is about 1600 and pH=8.3. I also added a emerald crab and 5 hermits to help mow this stuff down.

[Davie118]

I am glad its working out :)

~Greg

[leliataylor]

I am glad its working out :)

~Greg

Thank you Greg. The Emerald crab took out all of the filamentous algae that I had on the rocks. The cyano is gone. GHA is dead and the bryopsis is not growing and slowly receding. The interesting thing to me is how much the corals seem to be loving this. The polyp extension on the finger leather and anthelia is amazing and the leather seems to have almost doubled in size. I will try to get some pics of them tomorrow.

[Dean]

The one time I dosed Tech M the SPS in my tank reacted the same way. The loved it! Growth and polyp extension was definitely accelerated.

[leliataylor]

The one time I dosed Tech M the SPS in my tank reacted the same way. The loved it! Growth and polyp extension was definitely accelerated.


Time for me to do more research. What is it about the Kent Tech M that accelerates growth and polyp extension? Everybody talks about Ca to enhance coral growth on the stonies, but what is the deal with Mg? It is suppose to bind to calcium carbonate and prevent a precipitate. It is also believed that Mg is incorporated into the skeletal structure of stonies. However, if this was totally true why does it accelerate growth in softies? It may be due to its effects on maintaining stable levels of Alk and Ca. Just thinking out loud.

[leliataylor]

Here is a photo of the "fuzzy" finger leather.

[leliataylor]

I have at least 5 new buds on the anthelia. They are less than 1/2" long right now. I will try to get some pics once they get bigger. I also keep finding more little mushrooms everywhere. I have a tall vertical rock in the tank with a lot of holes and ledges so I am moving them there. I also moved the rhodactis mushroom to a large rock of its own and it has doubled in size.

[Davie118]

Cool. I am finding whatever fell off your rocks in my tank lol.

~Greg

[leliataylor]

LOL. Funny how saltwater creatures communicate. You know you are about to start finding seahorse fry in your tank along with a lot more little mushrooms and some anthelia. When one starts making little ones all the rest do the same. Have some 8 day old fry, another very pregnant male and another one that is doing his best to get pregnant. All in different tanks in different rooms in my house. They always gang up on me like this. I was getting distracted with the corals and my seahorses decided they wanted center stage. I have never had a tigertail make fry in the summer until now.

[Davie118]

Must be something in the water. Lol. Well thats the saying.

~Greg

[Justin]

lol, nice timing on the comment Davie118!

[leliataylor]

You two are too funny. I always thought it was about Chemistry, not the water. My seahorses love Kenny G "I'm in the Mood for Love". Anyway here is a pic of Rhoda.

[leliataylor]

Now that I can see the tank again I realized that there are also tube worms in the tank. Not a very good pic, but it will have to do for now. LOL

[Davie118]

Yay! New life!

~Greg

[leliataylor]

One anthelia came of the plug and has established a new home elsewhere. Right next to it is a small one about 1/2" long so they don't seem to hate their new home too much.

[leliataylor]

The nuisance algae is pretty much gone, which is a good thing. I did buy a mushroom that I will add to a seahorse tank once it clears quarantine. It is a lovely dark blue that I couldn't resist.

[Davie118]

Glad the algae problem subsided. That is a very blue mushroom!

~Greg

[leliataylor]

Glad the algae problem subsided. That is a very blue mushroom!

~Greg

Thanks Greg, I am glad the algae has melted. I know I will have problems in the future with this stuff and will need to stay on top of it.

Actually I found the blue mushroom by accident. I was at a LFS and they had a breeder net floating in on of their tanks. I looked and saw a number of blue mushrooms and some ricordea. This one caught my eye because it was the deepest blue I have ever seen so I took it home. It was only about the size of a quarter and has spread out to well over the size of a silver dollar. I hope it will make more deep blue mushrooms.

[Davie118]

Don't let my wife see the shroom.....she loves blue. Our house is blue, at one point all our vehicles were blue, etc..

~Greg

[leliataylor]

This is what vodka dosing does to your skimmer in a 12 hour period, it turns it into a volcano. LOL I do believe I have a over abundance of DOC's at the moment.

[leliataylor]

Well I am slowly making head way on establishing softies in all my adult seahorse tanks. My DSA 65 received a Reef Breeder Photon (compliments of Alton and I love it), I have added a Pink Fairy Dust Zoa frag (compliments of LMAR) that has added 3 new heads, a mushroom rock (compliments of Justin) and have mushrooms everywhere, and my most recent addition is a nephthea I found at my LFS in Boerne. After acclimating it and dipping it I added to a tank and it went from laying on its side all curled up to this within 2 hours. I am taking it one coral at a time and not adding anything new until I am sure all the ones I already have are happy and growing.