Interesting thread advocating for us to clean our sand

[jcnkt_ellis]

So, I came across this thread and it started to change my outlook on how sand beds work:

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/reefkeeping-made-easy-what-was-not-explained-160389.html

The gist of it is that everything, all the way down to the bacteria, poos and the best way to clean the poo is to siphon/clean the substrate. It goes on to explain that the side effect of poo left in the tank is phosphates.

Moving deeper, they make the argument that algae is not efficient at absorbing phosphates or other excess nutrients and reactors, that do not get fresh material regularly, add to the phosphate problem.

Since I have a small fishless tank that needs to be low nutrient, I've been following the advice presented and do not use anything but an ato. With weekly water changes and substrate siphoning, I have a healthy thriving sps reef. It's anecdotal for sure, but the above article quoted enough scientific articles for me to pause and really read what they were saying.

[rrasco]

Here's my sand bed story: My tank was doing 'good'. Corals were all growing and had excellent PE. I can't even remember the last time I had to clean my glass, but I had algae growing on one rock and on my sand, it was impeding my corals and had to be stopped. I could not get it to stop growing no matter what I did. It's important to note all the rocks in my tank, except this one, I dipped in a bucket of h2o2 during my long-standing battle with this foe. I never had any sand sifters nor siphoned the sand due to the abundance of corals calling it home. I finally decided that this rock along with my sand bed must have bound phosphates and as they were released into the water column they were immediately being metabolized by the algae nearest. It was time for new sand. I ripped up my sand bed and removed this rock from the DT. The sand I removed was DISGUSTING. I siphoned what I could and what came out of the sand confirmed my thoughts, it had to be a likely contributor to my algae woes. I can't say with certainty this was my only problem, since I actually removed all of that algae in this process, but the little bit that was growing here or there has receded and doesn't seem to be surviving like it once did. I'll hold out for a final conclusion, but I seriously debated going bare bottom after this. I like the natural look of sand too much, so I put new live sand in. This time around I am making an effort to stay on top of sand bed maintenance, both through siphoning and critters. Only time will tell.

[Big_Pun]

I've had better results with cleaning my sand bed. I also clean out my sump of poo, I see no reason to let it sit

[jcnkt_ellis]

Prior to this additional research, I was a fan of DSBs and letting it all sit. Now, I siphon. What surprised me even more, though, was the argument that refugiums do not really do anything, and reactors create problems if they are not properly maintained with fresh material. In the end, the only piece of equipment that is really advocated is a skimmer.

Siphoning the substrate when doing weekly/biweekly water changes + a skimmer is all that is needed, so they say. At that point, the cost of owning a reef is greatly reduced.

[ramsey]

I'm also a fan of stirring and siphoning the sand bed. Interesting about the refugiums.

[Paul28]

Everyone has there way in this hobby to make it work everytank is deferent some have luck some don't me ive been lucky my tank is almost 9 years in November and ive never messed with my sand bed but I tell you what WOW the stuff that live in my tank ive never seen before and the way all my rock are attached by crazy little sponges I don't like to kill the little worms and baby star fish that live though out my sand bed if food hits the sand bed is neat little pods little worm things come out of the bed to eat no food wasted but that's just me love my little worms in the bed :)

[jcnkt_ellis]

In all honesty, siphoning should not kill all those little critters. I'm a big fan of them myself. It's just that at the end of the day, those critters poop too and if its not being siphoned its just sitting there....

It's the crux of the DSB system, you eventually reach the point of no return where your sand is so loaded with poo in various stages of decomposition that any disturbance of the sand will release all those built up toxins into the water column and cause a crash.

[Paul28]

the little baby worms and star fish will get sucked out and will die in the bed and make dead spots they cant move through there little holes anymore and they die if messed with it will make little black spots in the bed I don't know its me it will kill them

[Paul28]

o yeh it will happen one day your rocks to its called old tank syndrome it sucks I found a great way to prolong old tank syndrome it is Waste Away but that just me it worked for me it broke a lot of detritus in my sand bed down great product

[jcnkt_ellis]

At the same time, those little critters moving through the bed are pushing the poo deeper. They help migrate the waste to the bottom of the bed where it can't be sweeped up by the powerheads and flushed to the sump where the skimmer waits. Then, as time moves on, the poo fills up the bed from the bottom to the top. It's call "old tank syndrome" as well as other names when your sand bed fills up with poo and the only advice given is to pull out the substrate and start fresh. If you siphon from the beginning and get the poo out, there is no need to refresh the substrate.

[jcnkt_ellis]

Rocks actually shouldn't suffer from old tank syndrome if they have proper flow on them. The bacteria on the surface of the rocks breaks down the waste on them and as they die, the still living bacteria shoves them off the surface of it.

[Paul28]

the old way was always deep sand bed now the new fab is use bacteria to fight bacteria first was Vadka then Bio pellets , now the add this to fight of this bacteria in a bottle to fight this I love Waste Away is my prefered bacteria

[Paul28]

Rocks actually shouldn't suffer from old tank syndrome if they have proper flow on them. The bacteria on the surface of the rocks breaks down the waste on them and as they die, the still living bacteria shoves them off the surface of it.

one day your rocks will take on so mutch phosphate it ill start to release and cant hold more if you are not taking your phosphate out your nitrogen cycle will not remove phoshates

[Paul28]

one day someone will come up with a bacteria to remove phosphates instead of just absorbing it into a media and are little sea worlds will great :)

[Paul28]

At the same time, those little critters moving through the bed are pushing the poo deeper. They help migrate the waste to the bottom of the bed where it can't be sweeped up by the powerheads and flushed to the sump where the skimmer waits. Then, as time moves on, the poo fills up the bed from the bottom to the top. It's call "old tank syndrome" as well as other names when your sand bed fills up with poo and the only advice given is to pull out the substrate and start fresh. If you siphon from the beginning and get the poo out, there is no need to refresh the substrate.

yeh if you start from the start cleaning it allways keep up on I yeh that's a great way of doing it but both methods work

[Paul28]

to tell you the truth if I did it again I would only put 1 inch in so I get reflection to the bottom of my corals get light and regular clean it on water changes, I wish I could put no sand but then your corals underneath wont get reflected light

[jcnkt_ellis]

My problem with saying that both systems work is that the DSB system is inherently flawed. Depending on bioload and thickness you could go close to a decade, maybe more, without cleaning out the poo. However, eventually the bed will be full and there is no guaranteed safe way to remove or replace it.

Also, your rocks filling up with phosphates is directly proportional to the amount of poo you have in your tank. If you are siphoning out the poo and have good flow on your rocks, they will not fill up. The surface bacteria on the live rock break off the top layer of rock in order to free up the phosphates the rock traps. When the bacteria dies or poops, the phosphate is offloaded in what's called bacterial flock. If the rock has good flow around it, the flock will be lifted away from the surface and it will settle on the floor of the tank where it can be siphoned or left to stew. Nature, in its own way, ensures the rock doesn't become over saturated with phosphates if it is cared for properly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Paul28]

My problem with saying that both systems work is that the DSB system is inherently flawed. Depending on bioload and thickness you could go close to a decade, maybe more, without cleaning out the poo. However, eventually the bed will be full and there is no guaranteed safe way to remove or replace it.

Also, your rocks filling up with phosphates is directly proportional to the amount of poo you have in your tank. If you are siphoning out the poo and have good flow on your rocks, they will not fill up. The surface bacteria on the live rock break off the top layer of rock in order to free up the phosphates the rock traps. When the bacteria dies or poops, the phosphate is offloaded in what's called bacterial flock. If the rock has good flow around it, the flock will be lifted away from the surface and it will settle on the floor of the tank where it can be siphoned or left to stew. Nature, in its own way, ensures the rock doesn't become over saturated with phosphates if it is cared for properly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
you cant say its Flawed if your saying that everything in this hobby is flawed what works for 1 may not work for another , and for Phoshate you put phosphate in everytime you feed the more you feed the more phosphate it get in a lot of ways, yeh in nature were the water is changing every second why are we doing this anyway everyones tank is deferent my sand bed has never been messed with in almost 9 years and my tank is STUFFED what works for me might not work for others its part of the hobby everyone does deferent ways ??

[rrasco]

the old way was always deep sand bed now the new fab is use bacteria to fight bacteria first was Vadka then Bio pellets , now the add this to fight of this bacteria in a bottle to fight this I love Waste Away is my prefered bacteria

Waste Away, and other similar products, provide bacteria that "attack and dissolve" organic wastes.

Probiotic bacteria metabolizes inorganic carbon along with no3/po4. This bacteria is then removed through foam fractionation (i.e. skimming). Vodka, vinegar, sugar and biopellets are that inorganic carbon source.

Eco Balance is Dr. Tim's probiotic bacteria.

[Paul28]

Yep love my Waste away cleaned the poo up in my tank :)

[jcnkt_ellis]

Yes, and bacteria also poo so those products are just making the waste product smaller and enabling a longer time for buildup to occur. After all, there is always some waste that settles out of the water column before it can be removed by skimming.

Paul, I'm enjoying the conversation with you. No ill will is intended. You're just the only one who has responded and argued consistently.

Personally, at the end of the day I rather discuss this and walk away with the correct method that works for everyone then the method that works for X so far, but may not work for Y, and didn't work for Z because he somehow didn't have the same parameters as X...

[Paul28]

:) haha the day someone comes up with the super method lmk plz

[FireWater]

Years ago a wise reef keeper told me to do multiple smaller changes each week. I adhered to that principle and never had issues. I then got lazy and brave with all the new "it" products. I slacked on maintenance thinking my hard earned money spent in products would carry me through. Nope.

I still believe the best method is removal via water change. Adding bacteria and other items after establishing the tank does not alleviate the situation and only masks it. <my opinion and my opinion only.

[jcnkt_ellis]

Only a matter of time...we reefers are already recognizing that there are at least 3 biotopes: the low nutrient, aka SPS, the high nutrient, aka Softy and LPS, and the balancing act, aka Mixed Reef. Who's to say that our discussions won't lead to at least one full proof method for one of those three...

[FireWater]

I would love to agree. However, I don't feel as if the market will allow one simple method. Lol.

[FireWater]

Oh, and I did stir my sand all the time. Won't have to worry about it for a while after this weekend.

[jcnkt_ellis]

Lol, john, my current routine is what your describing and I'm thrilled with the results.

It would seem that at least everyone agrees with water changes, btw, and that is very marketable for all the salt manufacturers.

By the way, if you read 20 pages or so into the thread I posted they get a little off topic and talk about how DSBs were endorsed because they were very marketable and lucrative for the company's involved. Don't know how much is true, but it was interesting reading ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Paul28]

Years ago a wise reef keeper told me to do multiple smaller changes each week. I adhered to that principle and never had issues. I then got lazy and brave with all the new "it" products. I slacked on maintenance thinking my hard earned money spent in products would carry me through. Nope.

I still believe the best method is removal via water change. Adding bacteria and other items after establishing the tank does not alleviate the situation and only masks it. <my opinion and my opinion only.

Hah love t John yeh water changes are the way wish that was the only way wow this would be easy

[Paul28]

I cant talk tho I got real LAZY on my waterchanges

[Paul28]

who is going to invent the first bacteria to remove phosphates will be the winner tho

[Big_Pun]

Yep love my Waste away cleaned the poo up in my tank :)

I love dr Tim's!!! too

[Bill S]

who is going to invent the first bacteria to remove phosphates will be the winner tho

I run a Hiatt. Removes both nitrates and phosphates.

[FireWater]

I need a nano hiatt.

[Paul28]

well that just got my wife to scream at me by google image that word woo

[Big_Pun]

I run a Hiatt. Removes both nitrates and phosphates.

I forget about that system, any way to scale it down?

[Paul28]

ahhh that's right I rember that you were talking about it at the frag cut meeting

[rrasco]

who is going to invent the first bacteria to remove phosphates will be the winner tho

Technically, they already exist, given the right conditions.

[ramsey]

Technically, they already exist, given the right conditions.

Yep. Bacteria use both nitrate and phosphate. Look at the Redfield ratio. It's not exact, but similar. There's a big thread on RC talking about dosing nitrate to lower phosphates in an ULNS.

With that said, water changes, stability, detritus removal (including stirring and siphoning sand) and good feeding habits have given me the most success.

[alton]

My 200 ran from 1999 to around 2009. I placed pictures of the early years and towards the end. I ran a wet dry with bio balls with the same sand and rock. Over the years I would add additional sand, rock, and corals . My nitrates when I switched over to my 300 where less than 5ppm probably 2 to 3ppm. People worry too much about crap

[350gt]

I never clean my sand....... Tank has been up over 3 years.... Phos and nitrates are high but the tank is thriving...