Mandarin not looking good =(

[Teeterz]

Hey guys, love the store, new customer here :). Anyways I was in need of some help.

I had purchased a female mandarin on Tuesday. She appeared active and healthy. Even got some tigger pods to go with her. She went through acclimation fine and shortly after found her a secluded spot in the tank. I've had no luck in getting her to eat the copepods, and have even tried various frozen food just in case.

I hoped for the best that she was just stressed so am continuing to attempt to feed her daily. It is now 3 days later however and she hasn't left the sand bed, appears to struggle with breathing, hardly moves and seems to have a sunken stomach :(

Is there anything that can be done as far as a return-for-credit of some sort? I am not familiar with the store's policies on the matter.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Bobby

[350gt]

how long has the tank been up?


I dont work at elegant but more info would help

[Teeterz]

UPDATE:

Mandarin kicked the bucket. Called Elegant Reef on Saturday, there is no refund policy =\

womp womp.

[hobogato]

you will be hard pressed to find a store that has a refund policy on saltwater critters.


UPDATE:

Mandarin kicked the bucket. Called Elegant Reef on Saturday, there is no refund policy =\

womp womp.

[Big_Pun]

UPDATE:

Mandarin kicked the bucket. Called Elegant Reef on Saturday, there is no refund policy =\

womp womp.

so how long has your tank been set up also what tank details, size, filtration and other tank mates. i have what i would call a seasoned tank been up and running a year and have been in hobby a while, and sometimes fish just die for no rhyme or reason. if a fish is doing bad it usually too late. mandarin require a nice seasoned tank that has been up atleast 6 months. but this hobby isnt easy and with some time you will get it down, we have all been there.

[Southern Flame]

so how long has your tank been set up also what tank details, size, filtration and other tank mates. i have what i would call a seasoned tank been up and running a year and have been in hobby a while, and sometimes fish just die for no rhyme or reason. if a fish is doing bad it usually too late. mandarin require a nice seasoned tank that has been up atleast 6 months. but this hobby isnt easy and with some time you will get it down, we have all been there.
Yup I agree, I lost 2 oc clowns one over the overflow and the other died for no reason there is a bit of heart ache in the hobby it bites sometimes but worth it IMHO and Mandarins are one of the expert fish to keep needs a well seasoned tank.

[Louis-210]

Just last week I lost my engineer Gobi of 3 years RIP!!!! :cry_smile:

[MARKIS210]

Just out of curiosity, mandarins predominantly eat copepods/amphipods, so what exactly are they eating while at elegant? Just don't believe they have pods established in the tanks and these are not target fed mandarins, so kinda seems lie your setup to fail if you purchase one there as they are more than likely not going to make it as starvation sets it fairly quickly. I've seen the mandarins there and they are pretty lifeless, not exhibiting natural hunting behavior etc. Juuuuust wondering

[350gt]

Just out of curiosity, mandarins predominantly eat copepods/amphipods, so what exactly are they eating while at elegant? Just don't believe they have pods established in the tanks and these are not target fed mandarins, so kinda seems lie your setup to fail if you purchase one there as they are more than likely not going to make it as starvation sets it fairly quickly. I've seen the mandarins there and they are pretty lifeless, not exhibiting natural hunting behavior etc. Juuuuust wondering


Then that can go for any shop for that matter....


Elegants tanks have been up for over a year I believe, other shops longer.... So I would think they have a pod population.... It doesn't take long for them to get going.....



There is also a reason mandarins are labeled for experts on all the sites I've searched them on.

[Big_Pun]

Just out of curiosity, mandarins predominantly eat copepods/amphipods, so what exactly are they eating while at elegant? Just don't believe they have pods established in the tanks and these are not target fed mandarins, so kinda seems lie your setup to fail if you purchase one there as they are more than likely not going to make it as starvation sets it fairly quickly. I've seen the mandarins there and they are pretty lifeless, not exhibiting natural hunting behavior etc. Juuuuust wondering

what store in town has an actual reef system established with pod populations? I've even bought Ora mandarins that stop eating. fish in general are stress out, they are plucked from ocean shipped half way around the world, then held in warehouse then shipped to lfs they haven't had food in a while, so by not having a system of your own ready you set the fish up for failure.

[Gseclipse02]

UPDATE:

Mandarin kicked the bucket. Called Elegant Reef on Saturday, there is no refund policy =\

womp womp.


i wouldn't be mad about this ... try returning to a petco or petsmart ( major chain store) they wont, to many variables on your tank to say why it died but one thing for sure was it was alive when it left and it must of seemed healthy for you to pick it out

[The_wolfeman]

I happen to know for a fact that those tanks get dosed with pods once a month so pods aren't an issue.

[jcnkt_ellis]

i wouldn't be mad about this ... try returning to a petco or petsmart ( major chain store) they wont, to many variables on your tank to say why it died but one thing for sure was it was alive when it left and it must of seemed healthy for you to pick it out

Petsmart doesn't carry saltwater and Petco no longer carries a warranty on saltwater fish. When Petco did, they required a receipt and a water sample and did not readily provide for exceptions to those two rules...heck, when I tried it ten years ago the Petco manager went and looked up the purchase history of the fish and informed me that none of that type had even been sold in the last six months :blushing:


That being said, don't do it, bad idea and a waste of time...

[allan]

I've been to elegance quite a few times, they usually let you know if the fish looks good or eating well.

Did anyone talk to you about the status of the mandarin before you committed to purchase?


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[FireWater]

As much as I've wanted fish before I always look at the fish a lot before buying, research to make sure my habitat is right for it, ask the store to feed to see if its eating, check to make sure my husbandry skills are at the level the critter needs, and still cross my fingers it will thrive in my tank. Nothing is set in stone and everything is a variable in this hobby. I have even paid half for a fish as a down payment and asked the store to hold the fish for a little while. As a customer you have to do your work. Sorry it went bad for you.

[Louis]

That is true, we do not offer a warranty or guarantee of any kind on livestock. It is extremely important that all hobbyists do their research and make sure that the fish they are purchasing look healthy. We will always try our best to help you pick a strong specimen and our employees will never deny you if you ask a fish be fed. If they do not eat it may be in your best interest to leave that fish at the store.

Our fish systems are nothing like what a home hobbyist would have. Our stock typically does not stay in our tanks longer than a week, so some fish may not learn to eat prepared food in the short time that they are here, most of the time we are very successful getting all fish to eat something.

Mandarins on the other hand are very difficult to keep even in an established aquarium. There is no way to force that fish to eat nor is there a guarantee that they will eat the pods in your tank. I have seen mandarins go into very established tanks and waste away to nothing.

The "invert" system at the store, where mandarins are kept, has biological filtration in the form of large sponges and many pounds of live rock with a protein skimmer. There are pods in the sump but I don't believe the pod population can handle the 5-10 mandarins that live in the tank every week. With mandarins YMMV, best of luck to you. If you would like to speak to me directly shoot me a PM with your contact information and I'll give you a call.

Have a great week.

Sincerely,
Louis Bueno

[Teeterz]

I did indeed research the fish prior to purchase and understood the level of care necessary.

My tank has a healthy pod population. Only inhabitants are 2 clown + clean up crew. I didn't see any desire to hunt that I could tell. Saw pods pass right in front of her, nothing.

Soo, just bad luck I guess...?

[allan]

I did indeed research the fish prior to purchase and understood the level of care necessary.

Soo, just bad luck I guess...?

Hey bro,

I hate to disagree with anyone, but I feel this is important.

Your assertion that you researched the fish before buying... Well, I'm not suggesting that you did not, but you should heed the advice such research yields. On April 26 you stated that you set up your first reef tank, a 30 gallon tank, a few weeks prior.

All of my research states that you should have six months to a year established tank to be successful with the mandarins.


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[1seahorse]

oh snap! lol

[Teeterz]

Hey bro,

I hate to disagree with anyone, but I feel this is important.

Your assertion that you researched the fish before buying... Well, I'm not suggesting that you did not, but you should heed the advice such research yields. On April 26 you stated that you set up your first reef tank, a 30 gallon tank, a few weeks prior.

All of my research states that you should have six months to a year established tank to be successful with the mandarins.


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This tank, in my opinion, has the sand life/pods capable for supporting 1 mandarin. If there is somewhere I went wrong in not giving it what it needed, I'm open for improvement. I do feel at a disadvantage and that it didn't even have the chance to thrive granted the sunken stomach and inactivity =\

[allan]

Perhaps, like John stated, got to really pay attention to the fish ore-purchase.

Don't confuse pod population with seasoned tank. There is a lot going on in a system that is identified loosely as seasoned... A system that has been running for a year vice one that was set up last month. Any one of these conditions may have influenced the fish not to eat or move.

I've had my current system up since late December last year, and will not be in the market for a mandarin (I actually want a male and female) until late this year or early next year.

It bites that you lost the fish, it happens. I've lost a few fish in the last few years. All I can offer is that along with the research, interview the store employee when you have a fish in mind. Most will feed the fish so that you can see them eat. This wouldn't be feasible with the mandarin.

It is a really pretty fish, the red and green mandarin, and they are so cheap most folks leap into it before their tanks are ready to support the fish. Not saying yours was or wasn't, only that I believe the rating is intermediate to expert care for a reason. They can be difficult to keep.

Best of luck to you, bro.


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[Teeterz]

All I can offer is that along with the research, interview the store employee when you have a fish in mind. Most will feed the fish so that you can see them eat. This wouldn't be feasible with the mandarin.


This is something I'm definitely learning from this. From now on, always asking for staff to feed the fish.

[MARKIS210]

Didn't mean to rustle any feathers questioning elegants system, it was just a question that I dont think Louis minded disclosing. Also to answer your question about if there are any lfs that have established systems with mandarins exhibiting normal behavior, yes. Not naming names, but yes I have seen many stores with mandarins in a healthy state. This is clearly ALL of Teeterz fault because he is a noob and did not have the knowledge to properly purchase a fish. Teeterz, for future reference, treat a lfs as a used car dealer.

I'm sorry to those that are going to be offended by this and flame the crap out of me but this
"There are pods in the sump but I don't believe the pod population can handle the 5-10 mandarins that live in the tank every week."
does not fall in line with this IMO
Welcome To MAAST (http://www.maast.org/content.php?5-Welcome-To-MAAST)
Our Purpose:

1. Encourage the growth of the marine aquarium hobby in South Texas

2. Educate and inform members and the public about care, keeping and propagation of marine invertebrates and fish

3. Prevent abuse to marine animals in general, and to conserve the marine environment by promoting intelligent, planned reef management systems

4. Promote higher standards of health and care provided by local commercial outlets

5. Organize workshops, seminars and discussions related to all aspects of the hobby

6. Raise and generate funds and create financial resources to meet these goals; and

7. Coordinate with and support similar societies devoted to like-minded interests.


Commence rage.

[Zen Reef]

I used to go into ER and ask a ton of questions about saltwater and the leave with freshwater supplies. I didn't even have a saltwater tank and Louis still took the time to explain and answer all my questions. A comment was made about wether or not the OP was asked about his system. While that would be appreciated, it shouldn't be expected. It's the buyers responsibility to initiate a concern or question. I could only imagine a retailer asking a list of questions before selling you something. Makes no sense.

[The_wolfeman]

I'd love to hear names of stores that are housing 5-10 mandarins at or time and have a sufficient pod population. And all running off the sane sump.

[MARKIS210]

I have been to multiple stores, both in SA and ATX, and observed healthy mandarins exhibiting hunting behavior. I do not know their setups/specifics.

[Louis]

Mark, I don't keep mandarins at the store. I sell mandarins at the store. And my intention is to tell YOU how to properly care for them at home. The mandarins are given every chance to live at the store where I exercise proper feeding of the correct sized and type of food to all animals (fish, inverts, coral, plants, etc) - and husbandry by keeping water parameters at appropriate levels.

I don't buy mandarins to keep them long term, i house them for only a few days until they sell out. In that time they are offered clean systems, proper water parameters, and food. Whether they eat or not is a blessing or a means to an end. This holds true for every single animal that goes through the store. I have given them what they need while they live at Elegant Reef Hotel. What YOU do with them is entirely up to YOU.

Calling someone a noob is disrespectful and that's not the type of criticism I want in the Elegant Reef forum. If you can't treat people the way you want to be treated please feel free to stop looking at and replying to this thread.

As for the constructive comments; The advise given in this thread is based on experiences of many hobbyists. I recommend these guidelines for anyone that wants to purchase animals for their aquarium. Good luck guys.

[Big_Pun]

do you come from doing freshwater tanks?

[SinisterLou]

Well spoken Louis

[Teeterz]

I don't mind being called a noob. Hell I'll admit I am a noobie. I was, however, unaware of the hit or miss factor being so high for the fish's survival post-purchase.

[LuckySingh]

Established tank with pods will help but new fish is always in some kinda shock when they get introduce to a new tank ...depending upon ur acclimation regime u can either calm the fish or even stress em more ......
Every fish goes through a new tank syndrome shock ...some makes em some dnt ...
I hve seen healthy fishes not making when introduced to an established tank ...
Every fish reacts different ..I am not saying u did something wrong its just the nature ...
Mandarins over all r not meant for every one for variety of reasons mainly for their sensitive nature and habitat ....
U just hve to be responsible buyer

On the note I bought mandarin from Louis like a year ago ...toughest fish I hve in my tank ..
Went through 2 crashes sucker is still alive !!!lol


Thanks
Lucky Singh

[Andresm]

Louis on a serious note, lol can u please hold two mandarin for me. I need some for my tank!! Tks always can trust ER for fish and help

[alton]

Louis and Dan do there best to bring in quality animals. Like other stores they sell what they receive from there wholesellers. Most of there fish come from quality marine which is the most expensive large whole sale place in the US. What that tells me is that Elegant Reef tries to provide San Antonio with the best fish in the trade. My Regal, Chevron, and others have come from Quality. Are they perfect, no not hardly but pretty good. I wish I could say this Mandarin will be the last fish you will ever lose, but I would be lying. I am sorry about your loss , it's always tough because we all care so much. Mark hopefully we see you as a Charter member soon. And Teeterz hopefully you will not let this get you down and try again.

[Big_Pun]

I don't mind being called a noob. Hell I'll admit I am a noobie. I was, however, unaware of the hit or miss factor being so high for the fish's survival post-purchase.

yea that's why no store will offer guarantee on salt water livestock. it's a different ball game than fresh, so many ways to foul a system it's hard to offer money back. you learn to tell what a healthy fish looks like and what a bad fish is. if you question a fish and know it's not great looking why but it and get mad it died?? I've told many customers I would buy that fish personally many times. if you stick with the hobby I promise there will be many ups and downs but in the end I love this hobby.

[Zack]

yea that's why no store will offer guarantee on salt water livestock. it's a different ball game than fresh, so many ways to foul a system it's hard to offer money back. you learn to tell what a healthy fish looks like and what a bad fish is. if you question a fish and know it's not great looking why but it and get mad it died?? I've told many customers I would buy that fish personally many times. if you stick with the hobby I promise there will be many ups and downs but in the end I love this hobby.


Well put chris

[Louis]

It is indeed difficult to keep. When choosing a mandarin I look at several things. The back of the fish should be round and the belly should at least be flat. If the back has visible bone structure that fish is starving. Color should be sharp and clear. Dull colors indicate large build ups of mucous which can mean the fish is stressed out.

I would love to say that every fish that arrives at the a fish store is destined to live. The truth is that these animals are caught in the ocean, shipped half way across the world, and then sit waiting at a wholesaler. The wholesalers will not always have bulletproof specimens and sometimes the fish turns out to be a runt or a sickly fish. On the rare and unfortunate occasion that this happens that fish has only a small chance of living. This is why proper selection is so important when purchasing fish.

Mark mentioned that you should treat fish store employees as used car salesman. Maybe that's the way most stores operate but I take much offense to that statement. We started The Studio with nothing but customer service and proper husbandry in mind. My employees know how I feel about this hobby and my business. And to see someone assume that ER is only out to sell you things you don't need or can't keep upsets me.

If you have been to the shop you should know what we're all about. If you haven't been then I invite you to come down and see why ER is a completely different experience here in SA. If you let us help you and are genuinely interested in this hobby we will do everything in our power to help you succeed. That's just the way we do things. We treat people like we want to be treated.

Teeterz, if you have questions or need help with anything feel free to contact me and I will get back to you as soon as possible. Don't beat yourself up over this fish, it happens to all of us. If your tank is not yet 8-12 months old then give it some time. Remind me of this thread when your tank has matured a little and I'll make sure to take care of you.

Have a good night. I'm going back to my position as a MAAST observer.

Regards,
Louis

[ducati996]

It is indeed difficult to keep. When choosing a mandarin I look at several things. The back of the fish should be round and the belly should at least be flat. If the back has visible bone structure that fish is starving. Color should be sharp and clear. Dull colors indicate large build ups of mucous which can mean the fish is stressed out.

I would love to say that every fish that arrives at the a fish store is destined to live. The truth is that these animals are caught in the ocean, shipped half way across the world, and then sit waiting at a wholesaler. The wholesalers will not always have bulletproof specimens and sometimes the fish turns out to be a runt or a sickly fish. On the rare and unfortunate occasion that this happens that fish has only a small chance of living. This is why proper selection is so important when purchasing fish.

Mark mentioned that you should treat fish store employees as used car salesman. Maybe that's the way most stores operate but I take much offense to that statement. We started The Studio with nothing but customer service and proper husbandry in mind. My employees know how I feel about this hobby and my business. And to see someone assume that ER is only out to sell you things you don't need or can't keep upsets me.

If you have been to the shop you should know what we're all about. If you haven't been then I invite you to come down and see why ER is a completely different experience here in SA. If you let us help you and are genuinely interested in this hobby we will do everything in our power to help you succeed. That's just the way we do things. We treat people like we want to be treated.

Teeterz, if you have questions or need help with anything feel free to contact me and I will get back to you as soon as possible. Don't beat yourself up over this fish, it happens to all of us. If your tank is not yet 8-12 months old then give it some time. Remind me of this thread when your tank has matured a little and I'll make sure to take care of you.

Have a good night. I'm going back to my position as a MAAST observer.

Regards,
Louis
This is what I call stepping up to the plate ive had nothing but great experience at this store

[MARKIS210]

Teeterz, did ER asks about your tank setup? Because if they did, they shouldve advised against purchasing this fish as i'm reading everyones replies regarding your tank setup.

I realize you are a sponsor, and I also realize no one is going to reason with what I have said. I used the used car lot reference in response to the YMMV comment you made, so you kinda set yourself up for that one. Like a used car lot, its up to you to do your reseach/inspection of the fish.

[Teeterz]

Nah, nobody asked about my tank. I was kind of hoping to strike a convo with a fellow seasoned enthusiast =\

[350gt]

Sometimes lfs's are not the best place to ask opinions....

I know for a fact elegant would be honest but I've heard other shops give some awful advice to other newbs though...

When I first started, I was told to add a dkh booster to my water when topping off by another lfs..... I followed for a little while but backed off eventually...


eitherway, here is a good place to ask for opinions.....

[jcnkt_ellis]

Mark, have you been to the store? I've talked to Louis and the other guys at the studio on several occasions about hard to keep animals and they have always asked about the condition of my tank and have never lied about the difficulties of keeping the animal alive. They have integrity and I would be remiss to say otherwise.

[FireWater]

Teeterz, just use it as a learning point. A hard and unfortunate point to learn from though. There is a lot of good info to be had in this thread. Please don't ever be afraid to ask questions or tell about your tank while in a store. As some have said, a LFS may not be the best place to learn or ask, but any reputable store will be able to help you make conscientious decision.

[polarbear]

All I have to say is that Louis at ER has been very helpful everytime I go by his studio. Actually everyone that I have talked to there is willing to help. We talk about the different fish and he even gives advice on how to handle problems in my tank. It would be easy for him to just sell you anything you wanted but that's not what his shop is about. They actually take the time to help you understand what the problem could be and help figure out a way to take care of it. I've been to the studio several times to just look around and ask questions just to walk out of there empty handed. Not once has anyone there ever made me feel unwelcome or like I had to purchase something. They are all there to help becuase they love their job and the hobby.

As for the mandarin loss I have had 2 pass away on me becuase my tank was not mature enough. I took people's advise and waited over a year to buy another one. I currently have one in my 90 gallon tank who is doing well. I have had it now for about 4 months. It's hunting for food all of the time. I still have to add pods to my tank even with it being over a year old already.

[don-n-sa]

Teeterz, sorry about the loss of your mandarin, losing any creature that we bring into our homes can be deflating...especially when we spend hundreds to thousands of dollars and countless hours trying to provide a healthy environment. I personally have lost countless fish in my 20+yrs and every time it makes me question myself on what I could of done differently.

I have purchased directly from the wholesaler , from many online stores , but mostly here in SA at the LFS..and I have lost at least one fish from every source. Early on I just chalked it up to bad luck or blamed it on the LFS, now if it happens I reflect on how the fish looked in the store. Was it eating? How was the color? Was it stressed? How long was it at the store? I can say with confidence that most of the losses were my fault. The biggest and most common mistake we can make is not properly acclimating.

I now ask a standard set of questions when I purchase a fish. How long has it been since it arrived? I try to stay away from buying a fish in the 48 period of arriving at the LFS because of the fish having to acclimate into new environments 2 times so close together is too stressful. I also ask the LFS the temp and salinity of the tank of which the fish came from...these last 2 are key. Most of the time a LFS will keep the salinity lower than our home tanks and the temp will usually be much lower as well. The bigger gap on these 2 means a LONGER acclimation period for you to do. I have found the best way is to float the bag for at least 30 min, and then do the drip method for an hour. When I stick to this I rarely lose a fish.

The pressure of putting your fish in your tank by your kids can make you rush this step but you must stick to this if you want to give your new fish the best chance of survival. A fish that has not been properly acclimated can take days or extreme cases weeks to die. My last loss of a fish came from Elegant...but it was completely my fault. I underestimated the power of an established tang and added a beautiful powder brown that was double the size of the atlantic blue. Me and my son watched in horror as the Atlantic blue shredded the PB in minutes. The PB was hand picked by Dan and out of impulse I bought him and put in my 150g thinking since the PB was double the size it wouldn't be a problem. I pulled the PB and put him in my fuge after 5 min but it was already too late. I felt really bad...not because the money, but because I was the cause of this beautiful fishes death.

In the last 20 years I have seen many LFS come an go and I must say that Louis and his Elegant Reef team are among the best. You will not find anyone who cares about the hobby more than he does, and based on his responses on this thread he is also a stand up guy as well. As for a return policy for an LFS on livestock, it just would not make business sense. There are too many variables and most of them come from the buyer making mistakes. I can remember a customer many years ago trying to return 2 dead clownfish to one of the LFS here because her son just had to have nemo in his goldfish bowl....yes freshwater. I really hope this helps and good luck.

[ramsey]

I just wanted to concur with everything everyone else is saying. Sadly, losing live stock in this hobby happens. Fish and inverts die sometimes with no warning signs. It's just part of it. You just have to do the best you can when you get them (acclimation and quarantine). It sucks to lose stuff, but you're going to have to accept that it happens to everyone, even the most experienced and seasoned.

I've been happy every time I've been into or made a purchase from ER (just wish they were closer to me!). Louis is a stand up guy and has always been honest and helpful. In fact, everyone that I've dealt with there has. I can say that there's only a couple of places in town that I've gotten great service at, ER being one.

[Myke7]

Sorry for your luck with the Mandarin, Ive been looking for a mated pair for a long time. I have researched and researched these cool little fishes. I have read about captive raised that eat frozen food and special foods made for mandarins. And with all this info I went into ER about a month ago with the idea of ordering a HIGH DOLLAR pair of the captive raised ones and instead of just ordering them and taking the money, Louis took the time to share some information I had not seen in all my research. Armed with this information I am working toward being able to house my pair soon.

I quickly learned 16 years ago the hard way this is like any other hobby you get involved with, there are people that will sell you anything to make a buck and that includes hobbiest and shops. Its your responsibility to research your purchases. Ask questions. And find the guys that want to see you succeed. You and You only are the god of your little eco and remember every choice you make will effect what you already have and what your getting.

We all make mistakes, but if it was easy what the heck would we all talk about.