Lethargic Yellow Tang

[fixedwing]

Hey Guys/Gals,

I'm currently QTing a yellow tang and over the course of the past 48Hrs he's been a little out of it. I checked my parameters that day and my ammonia read somewhere between .25 - .50. I thought I was doing a good job with the water changes, but I guess not. Over the past two days I did 50% water changes each day and the ammonia levels are back in check, but he's still lethargic. He stopped eating prepared foods two days ago, when the ammonia levels were elevated, and stop eating nori yesterday. He hasn't touched anything today. Also, partitioned off in the QT is a Tomini Tang and he seems to be loving life. It's just the yellow that's chilling. Oh and he tends to have these sudden twitches. Even though my ammonia levels are in check I just bought some AmGuard by Seachem to put in as a "just in case" kind of thing. Today marks the 15th day he's been in there and up to this point he's done great. Any ideas??

Oh and he doesn't have any visual signs of a parasite and the copper level has been at .5 - .6 mg/L based on two different testing kits (Salifert and Seachem).

Thx

[Southern Flame]

Have You tried garlic?

[fixedwing]

Yup, I even soak it in a container for at least a day.

[Southern Flame]

Dang, I got a really good response out of my blue hippo with the garlic guard and garlic extreme. And now all the bugger wants to eat is formula 2 pellets and a lil nori soaked in garlic. Speaking of have u tried feeding him formula 2 flakes or pellets? But I didn't use copper I hyposalinity QT my hippo at 1.016 and fresh water dipped 2x because of ick

[allan]

I've never run a QT, is it normal to have am readings?

Any ammonia is bad news.


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[fixedwing]

When I bought him he was eating Omega One pellets and brine. Since I've got him home he's only been interested in brine/mysis and hasn't been interested in the pellets. I just tried though and he was interested for about a sec, but still didn't eat.

You mentioned something I haven't tried though. I have the nori that has garlic in it, but have never soak it. I'm a little afraid to soak it though. Won't it just fall apart once you put it in the tank or do you just do a quick soak and place it?

Thx for helping

[Southern Flame]

20282Ammonia is normal in a QT that is running no filter media I water change my hippo everyday. I soak my nori with garlic extreme overnight in fresh saltwater in a covered Tupperware and I put it on the clip I don't have a prob with it falling apart but I have the sushi nori from HEB just keep what u have soaking refrigeratored and it will stay good I go thru a sheet every few days

[fixedwing]

Allan, yes I agree any ammonia readings are bad news and I'm pretty sure that's the culprit. Since I'm just starting back I didn't have the option to seed a spare sponge, ceramic blocks, etc and because of this the only way I can combat ammonia are a lot of water changes. I'm guilty of not doing enough and I now know I'll need to do more in the future.

[fixedwing]

SF,

So you're doing daily water changes. How much water do you change(%)?

I'm going to start soaking my nori now and hope the guy has a feast in the morning.

[Southern Flame]

About 75% to keep ammonia at 0 my QT is 10 gal but I wanna try and keep my QT water as pristine as possible with no filter media. And I fed metro and focus soaked food for any underlaying infections/parasites

[fixedwing]

Wow, I need to pick up the pace a little. You using any form of bacteria in a bottle or filter?

[Southern Flame]

Nope, I keep water made in a brute container and water change with fresh water never from the DT

[fixedwing]

The only problem I see with these large water changes on a daily bases is consistently maintaining my copper levels. I'm assuming you're not using copper... So you combat diseases through medicated foods? Never heard of Metro, is this it?

[Southern Flame]

2028420285Metronidazole and focus

[Kristy]

You are on the right track with monitoring the ammonia and fighting it, but in my experience it is the nitrite that is really hardest on the fish. You've got to prevent the ammonia from converting to nitrite. Buy some prime, use it religiously according to the instructions and do the water changes after you dose the Prime. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Sherita]

When holding a fish in qt, daily water changes are necessary to maintain water quality.

Southern Flame is using hyposalinity to treat her fish that has ich, rather than using copper. However, in order for hyposalinity to be 100% effective, the salinity needs to be at 1.009/1.010. Any higher than that, and you run the risk of just reducing the parasite load, rather than eliminating it. Those of us who have fish that are sensitive to copper (angels, butterflies, and some tangs) use hyposalinity if ich is present.

Anyway, sorry for the highjack. Yes, you need to do daily water changes to keep up with waste byproducts in qt.

[SoLiD]

^^^ Nail on the head Sherita. Thanks for making things clear to those who were unclear that Salinity needs to be 1.010 to be truly working. Most who haven't done a true hypo-salinity treatment\quarantine, don't understand how the small amount of salt that is required for your water to be at 1.010. :)

[Southern Flame]

Yea, ik hypo needs to be at 1.010 but my fish couldn't take the stress of it I tried twice lowering it and he quit eating lowest he would eat was 1.014 but he has been ick free since the second freshwater dip. But he is still in QT to make sure he don't go and infest the DT :)

[Sherita]

Tiphanie, unless you lower the sg to prophylactic levels you will not be rid of ich. The most common site of ich infestation is the gills, where it cannot be seen. Also something that needs to be noted, unless all fish are removed from the dt and put into quarantine, you will never get rid of ich in the display. Lowering the sg too quickly can cause distress in certain fish, it should be done slowly, and increasing the sg should be done VERY slowly.

OP, how is your fish doing today?

[Southern Flame]

Tiphanie, unless you lower the sg to prophylactic levels you will not be rid of ich. The most common site of ich infestation is the gills, where it cannot be seen. Also something that needs to be noted, unless all fish are removed from the dt and put into quarantine, you will never get rid of ich in the display. Lowering the sg too quickly can cause distress in certain fish, it should be done slowly, and increasing the sg should be done VERY slowly.

OP, how is your fish doing today?
Yea my hippo been QT since two weeks before Easter I'm slowly raising the salinity up so I can monitor him for signs of illness that way I can treat him accordingly. http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?76017-Regal-Tangs-Poisionous

how is your fish doing today fixed wing?

[fixedwing]

Thanks for all the replies and great input. I'm over two weeks in on a copper treatment, so I'd hate to change it mid coarse to hypo and have a setback. I just need to dial in the amount of drops I need to maintain the .5 after each water change.

I put the garlic soaked seaweed into the tank this morning and he seemed very enticed, but I still didn't see him eat any. That's not to say he hasn't when I wasn't around. The soaked seaweed made a mess though, so I need to find some that will stick together. Good thing I'm doing a water change today ;). SF, you mentioned you don't have an issue with your nori falling apart, which you purchased from HEB, which brand did you get? On a positive note, he seems to be a little more active, so maybe it's just a matter of time before he indulges.

I'll keep you posted.

[Southern Flame]

Thanks for all the replies and great input. I'm over two weeks in on a copper treatment, so I'd hate to change it mid coarse to hypo and have a setback. I just need to dial in the amount of drops I need to maintain the .5 after each water change.

I put the garlic soaked seaweed into the tank this morning and he seemed very enticed, but I still didn't see him eat any. That's not to say he hasn't when I wasn't around. The soaked seaweed made a mess though, so I need to find some that will stick together. Good thing I'm doing a water change today ;). SF, you mentioned you don't have an issue with your nori falling apart, which you purchased from HEB, which brand did you get? On a positive note, he seems to be a little more active, so maybe it's just a matter of time before he indulges.

I'll keep you posted.

i bought the nori at HEB it's in the sea food section

[fixedwing]

Sherita,

You mentioned that angels are sensitive to copper treatment. My next round of QTing will be an angel of some sort. I'm thinking about a Watanabe or a Shallowtail. Would it not be a good idea to copper treat these guys? I was going to take a little different approach and was going to start seeding some ceramic blocks today and was going to give them a month to soak. Hoping this would cut down on the frequency of water changes. Does anyone have any experience with ParaGuard?

[Southern Flame]

That's the nori I get

[Sherita]

I don't have any experience with paraguard, so I can't help there.

Many angels are very sensitive to copper, and will not survive treatment with it. If you are going to qt an angel, either go with hyposalinity (1.009 for four weeks, or at least two weeks after you see the last spot on the fish, whichever is longer), or look into using some of the quinine solutions. Wetwebmedia.com has several extensive articles on the use of quinine for ich, as well as a lot of good info on the use of hyposalinity.

I use hyposalinity for ich for anything that needs it. I have an extensive qt system, and everything I buy goes into qt before it goes in the tanks. I only treat if there is an issue, otherwise they are just observed for at least 4 weeks. To ensure no cross contamination, don't use any nets, hoses, pumps, buckets etc between tanks. I have a separate set of those items that are used just for my qt, and nothing else.

Quick notes on ich, and ich treatment: if you do not remove ALL the fish from your dt during ich treatment, you might as well not remove any of them. If one fish in the dt has ich, they all have it, whether you can see it or not (ich infests the gills, and you sure can't see it there). To have an ich free system, you must qt all new fish and corals religiously for at least four weeks. If you have ich in your dt and you have removed your fish for treatment, the tank needs to stay fallow (with NO fish, or any other new additions) for a minimum of 8 weeks. And, there are no "reef safe" treatments that are effective.

Hyposalinity cannot be used for sharks and rays. Copper cannot be used on eels, and many tangs, butterflies and angels also respond very poorly to it. Quinine based treatments seem to be tolerated well by all tangs, butterflies and angels, I don't know how well it would be tolerated by sharks or eels.

Good luck in your battle with ich, it's a reefkeepers nightmare. And all it takes is one slip, and you are right back where you started.

And despite vehement claims otherwise, it is very possible to have an ich free system. But you have to work at it.

[fixedwing]

Sherita,

My DT is actually going on line in the next week or two and the fish I have in the QT now will be the first set of fish to put in there.

The fish I have in QT have never had visual signs of parasites and I'm going to be an advocate of QTing everything I get for my new system. I've suffered big loses in my past setups and don't want that to happen again. My tank is going to be more coral driven, but I'd like to keep a few fish for the obvious reasons.

In addition to QTing my fish I'm also going to QT all my corals. I have three sets of the basic items so I don't cross contaminate. QTing is a little time consuming in the front end, but I'm a firm believer it will pay off.

I've seen the yellow nibble a little bit, so hopefully he'll eat when I feed a little later today.

[Sherita]

I think we all get bit in the fanny at some point about qt. Been there, done that.........lost a ton of livestock.

It sure sounds like you are on the right track to a healthy tank. Hopefully the yellow will decide to end his hunger strike soon.

[fixedwing]

Well I tried posting an update yesterday, but the site was down.

I've noticed, what appears to be some kind of an erosion, appearing around his eye and head. I'd say the color is a lighter orange. I've included a photo with some circles around the areas of concern. Sorry, it was the best pic I could get, he wouldn't sit still enough. Is this anything to worry about and if so, what would it be?

Throughout the day yesterday I never saw him chow down, but he did pick a few times. His behavior is about the same. Could it just be the size of the QT tank or maybe the copper? I have a 20L partitioned off in the center, so he only has a 15" x 12" area. I was thinking about partitioning the tank the long way or corner to corner, allowing a longer swimming area. Do you think this would help? He was at the LFS for approximately 3-4 weeks in a tank not much bigger than the area he's in now.

[Southern Flame]

I would def stop the copper treatment IMHO I don't really trust the stuff as its a poision and could be why your tang isn't eating its suppressing his appetite. I personally would monitor him in copper free water and watch his behaviour to see if there are any changes. And the erosion sorta sounds like HLLE