Deep sand bed methodology

[Scutterborn]

I'm bored. I wanted to start a thread about this a little while back and never got around to it.

I'd like to hear what fellow reefers thoughts, experience and so forth on the utilization of a deep sand bed ( DSB ) for the purpose of a natural nitrate reduction. I'll be updating this post and the next with results to include my own.



-Ben-

[Scutterborn]

Reserved for future results, experiences and myths.


-Ben-

[FireWater]

I think they have a place in a fuge but, not in my display. Can't stand the look of it. Only issue with using one in a fuge set up is you have to have a big enough fuge to make use of it and you have to have a clean up crew in the fuge to continue the benefits if the deep sand bed with out the detrimental effects of too much waste.

My first 2 tanks had deep beds in the display and I saw nothing except issues over time.

[Big_Pun]

i agree with john. a big misconception is that if you just put deep sand bed in your fuge it works like magic. a lot of people have such small fuge areas that its not really doing anything but trapping crude.

ive been bored and want to try something new in my tank, after that article on miracle mud i wanted to try it on my 150

[rrasco]

Most fuges, in general, are too small to be effective. This is also true as stated about DSB, they simply don't have enough surface area or volume to be effective. That's why you see a lot of people run RDBS, remote DSB, in huge containers, like 55 gallon barrels. Most tanks, even with DSBs, are going to get more effective denitrification from the anoxic zones in their LR. Good LR anyways. I've never actually had a DSB, but judging from others' experiences, the benefits don't outweigh the risks to me. There is also some debate as to whether a DSB has a shelf life. Speculation is, in about 5 years, they begin to cause issues, unless renewed yearly by replacing part of the DSB in layers.

[FireWater]

And replacing in layers is where the biggest problems occur. You have no idea exactly what all is being released into you tank water. Picture something like super ammonia.

[rrasco]

The term ammonia-bomb comes to mind.

[Scutterborn]

What issues does this speculation say?


-Ben-

[roscozman]

Do a search for a previous member PING. He was the fuge expert, However I believe he moved to Florida a couple of years ago.

[rrasco]

What issues does this speculation say?

-Ben-

I'd have to do more research to know exactly what issues they run into. The term I've heard thrown around was Old-Tank Syndrome. What that specifically means, I am unsure. Elevated levels or risk of disturbing the DSB and releasing unknown quantities of unknown organics into the water column would be my best guess at the moment.

[BBQHILLBILLY]

I can only speak from my experience. My 75 gallon refugium must have been magic sand. You put a little bit in a tank and it would clear a tank.
I am a strong believer in big sand beds, but like anything else you have to feed it.

[jcnkt_ellis]

I have a dsb in my 150 and I've used the following site, among many, for info:

http://www.4everb.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=28

According to them, the danger is having too deep of a bed that creates an anoxic zone that foster bacteria that creates hydrogen sulfide that is released when disturbed, or if left to finish its cycle, comes out of the sand bed as sulfate.

[rrasco]

I have a dsb in my 150 and I've used the following site, among many, for info:

http://www.4everb.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=28

According to them, the danger is having too deep of a bed that creates an anoxic zone that foster bacteria that creates hydrogen sulfide that is released when disturbed, or if left to finish its cycle, comes out of the sand bed as sulfate.

See, what is confusing to me is that I was under the impression part of the reason people use a DSB is to create that anoxic zone for denitrification.

[BBQHILLBILLY]

I can see how if the sandbed is never touched, that it could become a problem if you disturb it. My sandbeds are allways being mixed between the fish, snails, and other inverts.

[Scutterborn]

The anoxic zone would contain hydrogen sulfide at worst.

The particulate matter or grain size of sand plays a huge factor in properly setting up a DSB. Just like with any other aspect of the tank, planning is key.

I would like to simplify this discussion by focussing on two different methods. The Jaubert Plenumn and the Standard DSB.

The Jaubert Plenumn consist of a depth of 4"-6" of Caribsea Crushed Coral (aroggonite with a grain size between 2mm-5mm). This grain size favors bacteria. Because of the large grain size, oxygen extends deep down into the sandbed. This lower oxygen area is the facultative zone with de-nitrification chemistry in which bacteria convert NO3 to N2. This is nutrient export, as the nitrogen gas molecule is exhausted from the water. With bacteria populations that can double every 30 minutes, these sediments are powerful biological filters. While the composition of the substrate is insignificant to the bacteria, alkalinity buffering is accomplished using aragonite as the substrate.

A deep sand bed (DSB) should be 4" minimum, composed of a grain size between .5mm and 1.5mm. This smaller grain size will provide de-nitrification conditions at a shallower depth. The most important thing about this grain size is that it provides optimum conditions for the worms and other micro-inverts. The inhabitants of the sand bed process nutriants and convert it to food. Both larvae and free swimming adults feed the inhabitants of the display tank.


-Ben-

[FireWater]

I can see how if the sandbed is never touched, that it could become a problem if you disturb it. My sandbeds are allways being mixed between the fish, snails, and other inverts.

The whole point of a DSB is to not disturb it.

[Big_Pun]

i have 1-2 bed and i vacuum it every other water change, i like to see all that gunk go down the hose to the street! easier than letting bacteria figure out how do it lol. just seems to risky to let it sit there even if i did have a deep sand bed, if it only takes a couple months to get that dirty cant imagine what years of collected crud would do.

[FireWater]

The anoxic zone would contain hydrogen sulfide at worst.

The particulate matter or grain size of sand plays a huge factor in properly setting up a DSB. Just like with any other aspect of the tank, planning is key.

I would like to simplify this discussion by focussing on two different methods. The Jaubert Plenumn and the Standard DSB.

The Jaubert Plenumn consist of a depth of 4"-6" of Caribsea Crushed Coral (aroggonite with a grain size between 2mm-5mm). This grain size favors bacteria. Because of the large grain size, oxygen extends deep down into the sandbed. This lower oxygen area is the facultative zone with de-nitrification chemistry in which bacteria convert NO3 to N2. This is nutrient export, as the nitrogen gas molecule is exhausted from the water. With bacteria populations that can double every 30 minutes, these sediments are powerful biological filters. While the composition of the substrate is insignificant to the bacteria, alkalinity buffering is accomplished using aragonite as the substrate.

A deep sand bed (DSB) should be 4" minimum, composed of a grain size between .5mm and 1.5mm. This smaller grain size will provide de-nitrification conditions at a shallower depth. The most important thing about this grain size is that it provides optimum conditions for the worms and other micro-inverts. The inhabitants of the sand bed process nutriants and convert it to food. Both larvae and free swimming adults feed the inhabitants of the display tank.


-Ben-

Does it say anywhere in your research about size relation of DSB to tank size or are they just basing using a DSB in the tank?

[Scutterborn]

A remote or sump location seems favorable. In the event that we would lose power, the oxygen levels present in the water column would be exhausted much quicker through chemical diffusion wherever a DSB has access to it. Also, as you implied earlier in your post, aesthetics come into play.


-Ben-

[Scutterborn]

I would like to simplify this discussion by focussing on two different methods. The Jaubert Plenumn and the Standard DSB.

The Jaubert Plenumn consist of a depth of 4"-6" of Caribsea Crushed Coral (aroggonite with a grain size between 2mm-5mm). This grain size favors bacteria. Because of the large grain size, oxygen extends deep down into the sandbed. This lower oxygen area is the facultative zone with de-nitrification chemistry in which bacteria convert NO3 to N2. This is nutrient export, as the nitrogen gas molecule is exhausted from the water. With bacteria populations that can double every 30 minutes, these sediments are powerful biological filters. While the composition of the substrate is insignificant to the bacteria, alkalinity buffering is accomplished using aragonite as the substrate.

A deep sand bed (DSB) should be 4" minimum, composed of a grain size between .5mm and 1.5mm. This smaller grain size will provide de-nitrification conditions at a shallower depth. The most important thing about this grain size is that it provides optimum conditions for the worms and other micro-inverts. The inhabitants of the sand bed process nutriants and convert it to food. Both larvae and free swimming adults feed the inhabitants of the display tank.


-Ben-

It should be noted that this is quote from a friend of mine who is considerably smarter than I. Lol. We've spoken at length in this exact regard.




-Ben-

[FireWater]

Hydrogen sulfide can be wicked stuff. Also, when diluted in water it becomes hydro sulfuric acid.

We could talk for days on that issue alone.

[FireWater]

It should be noted that this is quote from a friend of mine who is considerably smarter than I. Lol. We've spoken at length in this exact regard.



Man, you really do like Allan don't you?

[Scutterborn]

Man, you really do like Allan don't you?

You're so misled! Lol!

:)


-Ben-

[Paul28]

My sand bed was 4 to 5 inches but over the past 7 years ive never done anything to it so it is like 3 inches now but in this past year i took out like 1 inch on the front veiwing and add another inch so im at 4 to 5 inches now i belive in it just NEVER EVER mess with anything more then a half inch in the bed or below that area will turn dark for about a month or 2 i dont want to know what will release if i stir it but i have alot of luck with mine i got chitens to millions of britstars to little red worms and alot of other goodies in my bed it will be 8 years in Nov this year i think the sweet spot in dsb is around 6 inchs thats my opinion sorry run on and misspells m labor for life :)

[koa25]

There was a member that mentioned putting Mangroves or other plants with roots into the DSB to help break up that zone of nasty towards the bottom of the DSB. Is this a good idea? Sounded good to me when i read it.

[Paul28]

the mangrove will out grow your tank after year or 2 then what try and pull it out might crash the tank with what ever is down there

[koa25]

Touche... Well answered good sir. ha ha

[Paul28]

o im sorry if i came off touche i cant word things for crap haha :)

[Scutterborn]

Paul, what can do to get a cup of you micro fauna infested sand!?! And an orange nem...


-Ben-

[koa25]

No touche like well played. Or good response. You were good. No worries bro.

[Scutterborn]

Lmbo. He means "touché" not touchy.


-Ben-

[BBQHILLBILLY]

For those that have traveled over seas to Francie, this is America. Land of the Brave. I agree touchy.

[Paul28]

Paul, what can do to get a cup of you micro fauna infested sand!?! And an orange nem...


-Ben-

i could grab some sand from my sump 6 inch bed but i cant go too deep :)

[Paul28]

haha i cant spell for crap hhahahahah

[Scutterborn]

Paul, what can do to get a cup of you micro fauna infested sand!?! And an orange nem...


-Ben-

So, um, ahem...

:)


-Ben-

[Paul28]

you know your bad off when your 9 year old corrects my wording she is like no dad its like this hahah

[Paul28]

So, um, ahem...

:)


-Ben-

you want one real bad, when the next split lets see what happens :)

[Scutterborn]

I really do. That was thrown in more for a grin for ya. I am seriously looking for a small cup of sand containing various critters though.


-Ben-

[Paul28]

yeh i can give you a cup of sand off the top dont want to go deep :)

[BBQHILLBILLY]

so its better to put maybe 2 inches LR rubble below the sand bed, or 5 inches of sand, no rubble?

[jcnkt_ellis]

I'm going down to Port A. in May and bringing with enough equipment to safely keep alive and transport random critters, algea, etc...(all legally collected of course). So, what about collecting a cup of sand or so off Padre Island on the side facing the gulf to increase diversity in a DSB? I'm talking at least as far out as the second sand bar, that's what...at least 200ft from shore +/-. I don't have access to a boat or dive gear so anything furhter out is beyond me.

[Paul28]

not shur i have no rubble this hobbie is try it till it messes up :) and try new things that work the rubble might work better no clue

[jcnkt_ellis]

so its better to put maybe 2 inches LR rubble below the sand bed, or 5 inches of sand, no rubble?

You need an anerobic zone (low oxygen content) for denitrifying purposes so, imo, 2 inches of LR rubble below the sand bed would destroy that zone. 5 inches of sand, no rubble, imo, would work best. The idea, as I understand it, is to keep from using too fine of a sand, or too deep of a bed, in order to prevent an anoxic zone (no oxygen content) from forming underneath the anerobic zone.

[Paul28]

yeh if your sand is to fine it will harden to a dead zone

[Paul28]

back in the late 90s i had a deep sand bed made of kids play sand omg that was a mistake haha

[Scutterborn]

i could grab some sand from my sump 6 inch bed but i cant go too deep :)

That's perfect. The fauna I'm searching for lives in the top layer.


-Ben-

[kkiel02]

Sorry just skipped through this so bear with me. I think for nitrate reduction it is much safer to use a turf scrubber. You hear alot of tanks having trouble in the long run with a dsb so I would just use use the scrubber approach. You don't have to worry about a tank crash down the road. All you have to do is scrape away algae every so often.

Of course the reason most dsb crash is because they are normally in the sump which is normally pretty low flow. This allows detritus to get down in the sand. Your dsb should have super high flow so this cannot happen. Ping was the man with these dsb back in the day. Wish he was still here. Hope that helps some.

[Scutterborn]

Kevin, the algae turf scrubber thread is on the list of many I plan to make topics on.


-Ben-

[Paul28]

I was thinking of trying to make 1 there to **** pricey to buy i was thinking a bucket and pvc and a screen of somekind

[Scutterborn]

I'm going down to Port A. in May and bringing with enough equipment to safely keep alive and transport random critters, algea, etc...(all legally collected of course). So, what about collecting a cup of sand or so off Padre Island on the side facing the gulf to increase diversity in a DSB? I'm talking at least as far out as the second sand bar, that's what...at least 200ft from shore +/-. I don't have access to a boat or dive gear so anything furhter out is beyond me.

I would never consider adding any measurable amount of sand that could be collected by those means off of the Texas coast. Out beaches are brown for a reason. The water flows from the Mississippi River through the deltas of Louisiana. All that sediment and waste from this influx spreads along our coastline.


-Ben-

[kkiel02]

I think mine was $20 to make. Super easy if I did it. :)

[rrasco]

You need an anerobic zone (low oxygen content) for denitrifying purposes so, imo, 2 inches of LR rubble below the sand bed would destroy that zone. 5 inches of sand, no rubble, imo, would work best. The idea, as I understand it, is to keep from using too fine of a sand, or too deep of a bed, in order to prevent an anoxic zone (no oxygen content) from forming underneath the anerobic zone.

Are you sure that is correct? I'm of the understanding denitrification only occurs in anoxic zones. Anaerobic is the biological reaction of organisms living in anoxic zones.

I agree about using sand and not rubble. Good live rock (read: very porous) can also provide many anoxic areas for denitrification to occur. This won't occur in rubble like it would a nice piece of LR.

[rrasco]

Oh, and I have made a few ATS. They are cheap if you have pumps and PVC laying around like I did. Less than an hour to build. I'll keep my feedback regarding them for the ATS thread. :)

[ramsey]

I would never consider adding any measurable amount of sand that could be collected by those means off of the Texas coast. Out beaches are brown for a reason. The water flows from the Mississippi River through the deltas of Louisiana. All that sediment and waste from this influx spreads along our coastline.


-Ben-

Not to mention the risk of undesirables in the sand.

[Scutterborn]

Oh, and I have made a few ATS. They are cheap if you have pumps and PVC laying around like I did. Less than an hour to build. I'll keep my feedback regarding them for the ATS thread. :)

Gracias! I'll likely create that thread sometime this weekend to avoid detracting from this one.


-Ben-

[CoryDude]

The Joubert method has been around for almost twenty years. There's a reason it isn't more popular.

Or, you can package up a dsb into a reactor and run a denitrator like me. It's way more efficient that way.

[jcnkt_ellis]

Are you sure that is correct? I'm of the understanding denitrification only occurs in anoxic zones. Anaerobic is the biological reaction of organisms living in anoxic zones.

I agree about using sand and not rubble. Good live rock (read: very porous) can also provide many anoxic areas for denitrification to occur. This won't occur in rubble like it would a nice piece of LR.

I may have been slightly off on terminology, but since pictures work best for me with how DSBs work here is what I was refering to:

http://i47.tinypic.com/vyp7hv.jpg


The yellow and black caution bar represents the 6" mark in DSBs, I believe.

[rrasco]

I may have been slightly off on terminology, but since pictures work best for me with how DSBs work here is what I was refering to:

The yellow and black caution bar represents the 6" mark in DSBs, I believe.

No worries, just making sure we are providing accurate information is all. I verified my statement before I posted it to make sure I understood things correctly. LOL

[Paul28]

I may have been slightly off on terminology, but since pictures work best for me with how DSBs work here is what I was refering to:

http://i47.tinypic.com/vyp7hv.jpg


The yellow and black caution bar represents the 6" mark in DSBs, I believe.

thats a nice pic of it love the yard gnomes cleaning out the hydrogen sulfide dead spot haha

[BBQHILLBILLY]

very nice indeed like the pic

[Scutterborn]

thats a nice pic of it love the yard gnomes cleaning out the hydrogen sulfide dead spot haha

That's the secret to an effective DSB. :)


-Ben-