RO canister exploded...what a mess.

[mkengr45]

Well, in comparison to Allen's ordeal this may seem minor but it sure got me frustrated. I use a big tub and a Pinpoint Salinity monitor to make the water for my water changes. I dial it in to 51.5 mS (1.0250 SG) on my salinity probe before changing the water. My RO system was switched on since the salinity was a bit high. I came out to the garage and heard a waterfall sound...immediately cursed, and shut off the main water supply. After inspecting everything I found this....pretty disappointed. Anyone ever had this happen?
http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y315/spanky4888/f7f8b979d958989d852ee8e07b31aff7.jpg

[Gseclipse02]

Its very common around this. Time of year

[mkengr45]

Yeah...I went from calm to furious in an instant, but I'm kinda explosive like that. Luckily I have a complete backup system on hand. My garage does not get very cold, I have a heater in there since we sometimes keep racecars in the garage in the winter. Doubt my garage got below 60 degrees F.

[FireWater]

Lots of variables. Never had it happen to me. I do shut off the water to my RO unit since I figured out that my float valve only likes to float every once in a while and looked my garage. Three times.
Any sunshine hitting the canister? Drop it or hit it? Might have been a defect since manufacture?

[mkengr45]

No sunshine, no hits, no drastic temperature fluctuations. In the winter it is not uncommon for us to keep a racecar or two in my garage, so it is temperature controlled....just trying to get my backup system working now. When looking at the back of the RO membrane I have the left as the waste side and the right as the good side (on its way to the resin canister) is this the sme as you folks? I made the mistake of taking it apart before taking pictures or notes, AND I've been drinking whiskey so I'm really looking for some easy info here folks...

Randy

[mkengr45]

I turn on the supply valve and only have flow out of the "good" water line...nothing out of the waste water line. I'm going to try and make a schematic real quick. I hooked up the new system just like the old one. It's not like this is my first rodeo, but I'd love for someone take make it easy and say "hey, stupid, switch these two lines and your good"....anyone, please.

[mkengr45]

It's literally an identical copy of the old system, I'm starting to suspect membrane or cartridge problems. Or, of course, user error!

[mkengr45]

FYI, all the little flow restrictiors are in the same location.

[BBQHILLBILLY]

question why is your waste water line blocked?:bigsmile:

[rrasco]

The one on the cap of the membrane is the input (right side in picture). The good water is the centered outlet (lower left) and the waste water is the offset one (upper left). At least that's how mine is hooked up.

18106

[mkengr45]

question why is your waste water line blocked?:bigsmile:

It's not...next!

[BBQHILLBILLY]

I would be surprised if this temperature prob. I would put my drink on the water pressure. What does your gauge read and has the city checked the water pressure?
That would be 2 simple cause you switched the lines.:bigsmile:

[BBQHILLBILLY]

This is quite interesting. The normal operating water temp is supposed to be 77. The only I can find is to put a heater in a 5 gallon bucket to 80 degrees and run the tubing through it and hopefully temp will get close to the 77. and turn down the pressure.

[mkengr45]

Not sure what the problem is. I have spares of everything, and have this one hooked up just like the other one. Not sure what to try next...

[mkengr45]

I've been doing this for 15+ years and have never had this happen...

[mkengr45]

Someone tell me an easy answer please...next step is to put all new filters in the system.

[mkengr45]

What a piece...I'll check it out in the morning.

[Big_Pun]

call me I know what it is

[Big_Pun]

if your getting water only through good water line then your flow restrictor may be clogged. the system will seem to run fine, pull off restrictor and blow in the inlet side and see if air comes out.

[FireWater]

I'm late to the party. I agree with Chris on this one and think it is a clog in the flow restrictor or clog in the membrane.
If you still have my number call me if you need help.

[bugj51]

why not just replace the canister that broke with one from the backup?

[Big_Pun]

why not just replace the canister that broke with one from the backup?

the threading is different a lot times. they may look similar but companies like to make you buy their parts.

[mkengr45]

Figured it out. This new system had some funky manifold/distribution block that had no diagram and was not very intuitive looking at it. I disconnected all the lines and blew through them...the left hole came out through the middle, middle flowed to two other holes, and so on and so on. No idea why it was in there...just came with a bunch of stuff I bought. Changed out DI resin and am pumping out ZERO TDs water now. Tinkering with the idea of putting some of my other canisters in series in the system...try to prolong the membranes life...maybe run two of everything, including membranes. Thoughts? Waste of time and space?

Randy

[SABOB]

I've heard of running 2 DI resin canisters, not sure 2 Carbon Blocks or 2 Sediment filters is necessary


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sherita]

Two membranes is most likely a waste of money. The first membrane in line will catch all of the crud, and you will wind up replacing it just as often. Extra carbon blocks probably won't do much, unless you are dealing with chloramines in your water. Two DI canisters simply allows you to run twice as long.......when the first canister exhausts, the second takes over.

I actually have a housing added on to my system, because I do have chloramines in my water. My system goes like this:

sediment filter
catalytic carbon (refillable cartridge)
carbon block
chloramines carbon block
ro membrane
DI resin (refillable cartridge)

Because of the chloramines, I have to be religious in my filter changes. Otherwise it will get through the prefilters, and destroy the membrane (and my tanks).

But, to answer your question, no, extra "stuff" won't really serve any purpose. Other than to cost you money at every filter change. You won't get more volume, two 100gpd membranes does not equal 200g a day, it still only equals 100g a day, plus your flow restrictor is also going to keep you at whatever it's rated for. Put your spare parts on a shelf, and keep them for when you need them. :)

[Big_Pun]

sorry Sherita but in the right conditions two membranes kicks arse. I run the brs water saver where the waste line of on membrane feeds the input of a second membrane and then you merge the good water line with a wye. I then run them into a dual canister, I can make 300-400 gallons before di is done. so I get 150gpd with the waste out put of a 75gpd. the water pressure needs to be above 65psi plus going into the ro membrane for it to work.
also I purge the RO membrane before water gets to DI to avoid TDS creep and high TDS water going into DI when water is first run through

[Sherita]

Chris, how do you deal with the flow restrictor?

I'm surprised you only get 500g out of your di resin, is your cartridge one of the smaller ones? I have a high tds going into my system, and I get at least 750g out of my di resin. Strange.

[Big_Pun]

I'll explain it lil better. I waste half the water as I would filling my 55g barrels. so twice as fast but less water out the waste line

[Big_Pun]

Chris, how do you deal with the flow restrictor?

same restrictor for a 75gpd filter its on the waste line of second filter. I know it sounds funny but the restrictor is still letting the correct amount as it would for a 75, so requirements are the same no diff for two filters.

[Sherita]

I'll explain it lil better. I waste half the water as I would filling my 55g barrels. so twice as fast but less water out the waste line

So, what is your tds coming out of the membranes going to the di resin? I'm really curious what the tds is coming out of the first membrane compared to the second membrane.

Edit: Chris, pm me on this conversation. We are hijacking the op thread. Not cool :)

[mkengr45]

Hijack away...I'd like to hear details too.

[BuckeyeHydro]

No sunshine, no hits, no drastic temperature fluctuations. In the winter it is not uncommon for us to keep a racecar or two in my garage, so it is temperature controlled....just trying to get my backup system working now. When looking at the back of the RO membrane I have the left as the waste side and the right as the good side (on its way to the resin canister) is this the sme as you folks? I made the mistake of taking it apart before taking pictures or notes, AND I've been drinking whiskey so I'm really looking for some easy info here folks...

Randy

Here's a generic plumbing diagram:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/BuckeyeFS/4stage.jpg

[BuckeyeHydro]

No sunshine, no hits, no drastic temperature fluctuations. In the winter it is not uncommon for us to keep a racecar or two in my garage, so it is temperature controlled....just trying to get my backup system working now. When looking at the back of the RO membrane I have the left as the waste side and the right as the good side (on its way to the resin canister) is this the sme as you folks? I made the mistake of taking it apart before taking pictures or notes, AND I've been drinking whiskey so I'm really looking for some easy info here folks...

Randy

Here's an easy way to understand (rather than try to memorize and remember) which port on the RO membrane housing is waste water, and which is permeate (RO water). This is a cut-away showing how the RO membrane seats into the RO membrane housing:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/BuckeyeFS/Cutawaylabeled_zpscb411126.jpg

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/BuckeyeFS/ROmembraneports.jpg

Russ

[BuckeyeHydro]

This is quite interesting. The normal operating water temp is supposed to be 77. The only I can find is to put a heater in a 5 gallon bucket to 80 degrees and run the tubing through it and hopefully temp will get close to the 77. and turn down the pressure.

Membrane manufacturers test the performance of their membranes under a standard set of conditions:
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd293/BuckeyeFS/ROMembraneFactorySpecs-1.jpg

Filmtec tests @ 50 psi, other manufacturers at 60 or 65 psi.

Realize that these are only test conditions. Nothing says 77F and 50 psi are "ideal." Membrane performance, in terms of rejection and flux (or speed of producing water), varies with temperature and pressure. So you can get a membrane to perform differently by changing these variables. It really isn't practical to change feedwater temperature, but it is easy to change feedwater pressure.

Russ

[BuckeyeHydro]

Figured it out. This new system had some funky manifold/distribution block that had no diagram and was not very intuitive looking at it. I disconnected all the lines and blew through them...the left hole came out through the middle, middle flowed to two other holes, and so on and so on. No idea why it was in there...just came with a bunch of stuff I bought. Changed out DI resin and am pumping out ZERO TDs water now. Tinkering with the idea of putting some of my other canisters in series in the system...try to prolong the membranes life...maybe run two of everything, including membranes. Thoughts? Waste of time and space?

Randy

I would add additional prefilters ONLY if you have a particular water quality issue you're trying to address - such as heavy sediment loads that clog your sediment filter faster than you'd like, or chloramines. Otherwise, stick with one good quality sediment filter and one good quality carbon block.

Russ

[BuckeyeHydro]

sorry Sherita but in the right conditions two membranes kicks arse. I run the brs water saver where the waste line of on membrane feeds the input of a second membrane and then you merge the good water line with a wye. I then run them into a dual canister, I can make 300-400 gallons before di is done. so I get 150gpd with the waste out put of a 75gpd. the water pressure needs to be above 65psi plus going into the ro membrane for it to work.
also I purge the RO membrane before water gets to DI to avoid TDS creep and high TDS water going into DI when water is first run through

Remember that what folks call "waste water" really would be better thought of as "flush water" in that this water serves the important purpose of internally flushing the surface of the semipermeable membrane to keep the membrane from fouling/scaling.

When you configure a system with two membranes in series (the waste from the first membrane going to the "in" port on the second membrane), for this discussion let's say it's two 75 gpd membranes, the system behaves like you have a single long (75 gpd x 2) 150 gpd membrane.

Now - if you use a proper flow restrictor, that is, one for a 150 gpd membrane, you'll have about a 4:1 waste to product ratio. Sounds familiar, right?

If however you don't change the flow restrictor - meaning you keep using the same restrictor you were using when you just had one 75 gpd membrane, then you'll see a waste to product ratio much lower than 4:1. But remember that the recommendation for a ~4:1 ratio comes from the membrane manufacturer. They are telling you that you need about a 4:1 ratio to keep the membrane flushed and keep the membrane from fouling or building up scale. Run the system with a lower ratio and you will foul/scale the membrane(s) quicker than would have otherwise been the case.

Instead of adding a second membrane to lower that ratio, you could have just changed out your flow restrictor ($4) instead. This is a much less expensive approach to get you to the same endpoint in terms of saving on waste water.

Now, to confuse things just a bit. Filmtec specs call for the 4 to 1 ratio on the basis of assumptions about the water that will be supplied to the membrane. If you have very soft water you MAY be able to get a decent service life from the membrane running at a ratio lower than 4 to 1 (e.g., 3 to 1). Remember that the waste water from the first membrane is about 25% harder than your tap water.

Bottom line: If what you are after is reduced waste water, experiment with a different flow restrictor for $4 instead of messing around with a second membrane plumbed in series.

As a side note, you can also lower the ratio by increasing the pressure delivered to the membrane (with a booster pump), because flow restrictors are sized assuming you are providing factory spec conditions (50 psi and 77 degrees for Filmtec membranes). Increase the pressure and you'll drive more water through the membrane and viola - less waste water. But as I mentioned above, if you do this (just like over-restricting a membrane) - the lower the waste to product ratio, the shorter the lifespan on the membrane.

Makes sense?

Russ

[OrionN]

These canister should tolerate normal household pressure fine. It break, where it is, likely due to crack on the canister due previous drop or whatever banging on it before. I have use RO system for 20+ year ans this is the first I have heard that it "exploded".

[Big_Pun]

so Russ your saying for water geek like me lol using a adjustable flow restrictor would be ideal to get the proper waste ratio? I'm about to set a new system with the new membranes and want to do this right. I ordered a new Ro housing and forgot the fittings so I need to place a order.

[BuckeyeHydro]

The adjustable flow restrictors are OK, as long as you check them frequently. They tend to not stay in precise adjustment on these low flow (relative to big commercial RO's) systems.

Russ

[Big_Pun]

The adjustable flow restrictors are OK, as long as you check them frequently. They tend to not stay in precise adjustment on these low flow (relative to big commercial RO's) systems.

Russ

so a 150gpd restrictor would work with the new high rejection membrane ?

[BuckeyeHydro]

You should use a 75 gpd restrictor with a MAXR membrane - but you are running two in series, right? IF so, then either a 100 gpd restrictor with cold water/low pressure, or the 150 gpd restrictor with 50+psi and 77F water