1 1/4 check valve

[lildingy]

Can anyone recommend a bulletproof 1 1/4 check-valve that can be mounted vertically?

[Scutterborn]

I've always heard this about check valves.... 60% of the the time, they work every time... I don't know if there is such a thing as a " bulletproof check valve". There will be all sorts of nastys that will coat the inside of the pipe that could cause a failure in the valve.

[Big_Pun]

get a George fisher check valve. you can clean them. didn't see 1 1/4 though maybe you can use another size http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/catalogsearch/result/?q=george+fisher&x=11&y=13

[zerreissen]

What is it exactly that you're trying to accomplish? Do you have a diagram?

[lildingy]

I am trying to stop the flow back to the sump when power is down from the return. The tank drains bout 25 gal when the power is down, sorry at work atm so no pic or diagram.

[zerreissen]

Ahh, ok, that one is easy. What you can do is drill a small hole in your return piping just below the water line to break the siphon when the power goes out, this has worked pretty well for me.

[lildingy]

Well I drilled the tank so its not a siphon, tho that does gimmie a thought about adding some 90s to maybe keep it fromgoing down quite so much

[klwheat]

He doesn't mean a siphon overflow. How is your return setup from the sump to the tank. If the tank is above the sump (most common), anytime you have the return submerged, and power goes out, you have a siphon created and that is what causes the 25gal backflow you're worried about. Once the water level drops to the point where air enters the line, the siphon is broken. The simple solution is to drill a hole in the return line under the "normal" waterline, but NEAR the waterline, so that when the backflow starts...it only drops a small amount before air enters the system and breaks that siphon.
Hopefully, that explanation makes sense...lol pics would be better, but I'm at work too!.

[lildingy]

I probably should just wait till I get some pictures, but the returns are drilled 3.5 I.ches below the water surface, there is no siphon going. But I think (very scary) if I turn the plumbing up, past the waterline, then down I can keep alot of the water in the tank, will just have to have the licline near the surface to suck air.

[rrasco]

There is most definitely a siphon being created. I have used check valves with success, but they are far from bulletproof, especially in a reef.

Under normal operation, water is pumped up the return line and into the tank. When power is lost, the water still in the return line free falls back down the return line. This creates the siphon. Similar to how you can create a siphon by sticking one end of a tube in the water and sucking on the other end. It will continue to siphon until air is introduced to break the siphon. This will occur from either draining your DT until the return nozzle is exposed to air, or through the use of a siphon break; which is what has been suggested to fix your problem and is really the only bulletproof method available.

The problem you are going to encounter is that your returns are an abnormal distance from the surface of the water meaning you can't simply drill a hole in the return like most setups do, the water still has to drain enough to introduce air into the siphon break.

Here is the only picture I could find of my return line with a water level. I don't use a drilled hole for a siphon break, instead, my return nozzle is positioned just under the water line so when power goes out the tank drains minimally before air is introduced and the siphon breaks.

15431

[lildingy]

Ok, I am not one to argue, but there is no siphon. The water drains till it hits the bottom of the bulkheads. But with that being said, I am gonna make a siphon now to raise the waterlevel when pumps are shut off.

[rrasco]

Nobody is arguing. If you have a return line that is submerged under the water level and your sump is below your DT; you indeed have a siphon. This is simple physics and a concern in EVERY tank with a sump. I'm assuming you have a 1.25" return line because you're asking for a c/v that size, the siphon probably continues to drain until it reaches the bottom of the bulkheads because 1.25" creates a strong siphon. I'd still like to see pictures of this when you get a chance.

Can you explain what you mean when you said you are going to create a siphon to raise the water level when the pumps are off?

[lildingy]

Ok here is what i got atm.
15433
15434

Hand this is my theroy on how to keep as much water from draining using a siphon.

sorry for the very crude drawing.
15435

In theroy with a "standpipe" that goes above the waterline the water level should stay the same as soon as air gets sucked in from the top locline. Anyone see any issues besides restriction one the pump?

By the way I hope no one is upset or thinks i am ungratefull, I just didn't have any pictures of it to explain my self further, I am very gratefull for the advice i have recieved from everyone. And i am really looking forward to meeting some of yall come july.

[Scutterborn]

Rrasco, He's got pics in the "lurker finally committed" post. Looks like a calflo overflow. I would use locline to run up closer to the water level and then angle back down. Any water, whether through a bulkhead of overflow box, that is below the water line will reverse drain
back to the lowest point until air breaks the siphon. That's why you will want to keep your returns as high as you can to break the siphon whilst the water level is still high.

[Scutterborn]

I just saw your post after I finished posting mine. The way you have the locline setup will break the siphon because the top will draw air and cut the drain. I assume you will run the top return angled slightly as to not cause a geyser effect though! Lol. I just had to give ya a hard time on your drawing. lol!!

[lildingy]

:) I was hoping i could simulate natural rainbows....

[Scutterborn]

Hahahaha!!!!!

[rrasco]

Okay, so you have a 1.25" return line wyed off into dual locline returns? I'm not sure I follow your train of thought on 'making a siphon', but that drawing looks like it will work. That's best practice, to keep the returns as close to the water level as possible to minimize the amount drained through the reverse siphon.

Looks like you're running a bean drain as well. :thumbs_up: If you have problems tuning the drain just right I would suggest a gate valve instead of the ball valve. Ball valve will work, gate valve just works better because it allows for more precise tuning. Been there, done that.

No hard feelings buddy, I just don't want you to end up with an indoor pool and a dry reef. That's never any fun.

[lildingy]

The return is an 1.25 split into 2 1" one on each side of the tank then each one will be split at the bulkhead into 2x3/4 LocLine. Well that is the plan anyways :)

Ya know how to make God laugh don't ya, just tell him/her your "plan"

[rrasco]

Out of curiosity, what kind of pump do you have pushing this?

[lildingy]

I don't... well not as of yet. The wify and I are trying to do a little reasearch before this purchase. I do know i want it external to help keep heat down. I tested it with a Pondmaster 1200 gph. It filled it faster then i could get water from the hose. But i am sure that that pump will not hold up to saltwater. Any suggestions or experence with pumps would help alot, I just feel i have bothered everyone with so many questions up to this point, I needed to be a bit more informed before i brought this one up.

[Scutterborn]

Dude, that's why we have a great club. Ask away!!

[lildingy]

Do you think i still would need a c/v with the moar recent design? probably wouldn't hurt just to be safe huh?

[Scutterborn]

I not gonna run them. Seems like if you build it right, you shouldn't need them. Just one more place/thing to leak, fail, be a flow restriction...

[rrasco]

I was thinking since you already picked out the plumbing you knew what you were supplying it with. I think most externals like pan world and iwaki use 3/4" whereas reeflo uses 1.5". I have two reeflo darts, and while I like them, they inevitably end up leaking because the seals go after awhile. They're relatively easy to replace, but I don't like the idea of replacing parts as part of a maintenance routine. I'm not sure if stepping up from 3/4" to 1.25" would be good (assuming you went with a pump that had a 3/4" outlet and based on your current plumbing), I don't have experience doing so. I do recall reading on RC that actually gets you better flow in some circumstances, assuming your pump has enough horsepower to begin with.

FWIW I actually prefer internal pumps. They are not loud, in my experience, I never had a really big one though. The biggest I have pushes around 1200-1300 GPH. And while they do add some heat, I don't think it's that much. I guess that is dependent on the pump though.

Having said that, how big is your sump? Are you going to run a skimmer? It is possible to push too much water through the sump to the point that it will inhibit your skimmer's ability to skim. If you are planning on a fuge, that is also something you want to limit flow through. Just some things to keep in mind when selecting a pump.

Don't feel bad about asking question, that is why we're here. We're all a little fish crazy.

[lildingy]

I am sorry that my build is over 3 different forums, http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?70947-First-large-mixed-reef-suggestions-fer-a-beginer/page2 On this page shoud be another perdy crude picture of my sump design. I was planning on putting a tee and a valve on the full siphon of the bean overflow to feed the fuge, with a internal pump feeding the ****** skimmer i got from Mr. Allen.

The volume of the sump/fuge should be about 40/50 gal.

[rrasco]

Is that still your current sump design? The first thing I noticed is skimmer/return chamber. I would recommend having the skimmer in a chamber that does not fluctuate water levels. It will effect your skimmer's performance. The return will vary in water levels due to evaporation. This can be semi-controlled with an ATO, but I would still suggest isolating those chambers. My skimmer sits in the intake. Here is my most recent sump design. It was designed for external. Had I designed it for internal, the fuge would span the entire depth of the sump, but I need a way to connect an external pump, hence the odd design. Intake/skimmer is on left, return is L chamber, fuge is chamber on right. Fuge is slightly taller than the other chambers. Return pump to DT, small powerhead to feed fuge which simply overflows back into the return chamber.

I have no idea how the T and valve will effect the full siphon. It may not at all. You may want to search the Bean thread on RC or ask that specific question there. Lots of experienced folks with the BA overflow there, including the man himself.

15436

[lildingy]

Well it is my current thought, now i second guessing myself. I am debating on making the sump/fuge larger now. I guess it would be over kill to get another 125 for a sump huh.... I am gonna have to build a new base cabinet to house anything larger or to hide the skimmer. I was planning on running the skimmer externally with the pump in the return chamber and the return going back into the fuge intake to help control flow through the fuge. I really am starting to second guess my whole setup now :( kinda glad i havn't pulled the trigger on having the sump built yet. I bought a couple 250 metal halide fixtures and ballast for $35 bucks and am in the process of converting them for aqaria use.