Total Freakout!!!!!

[Fegenbush]

My Angel fish that has the problem with her fin has now got white specks on her entire body!! She was fine after feeding vitamins and things but now she even has white film over her eyes and does not look good at all!!! I'm in a panic!!!!
Should I quarintine her or what? Please HELP!!!!147491475014751I just fed and she is still eating so glad about that! My grouper is acting funny too he eat a couple of days ago just a little, and he is usually the pig snatching up everything he can eat from everyone else but he ate one silver side and went and hid and has not cared about eating for two days now! what is going on? any suggestions!!!!!!
PLEASE!!

[Mike]

Test your water... Ammonia... Electric current... ?

[Fegenbush]

Ammonia has been zero and nitrites have been zero but my nitrates have been very high 80-120 around there. I don't know if I sould have done this but I just did a major water change of almost half at around 5:00 oclock! I think that the fish are somewhat stressed right now at 10:00 oclock but the inverts look like they are great. I am going to check the nitrates again right now and see how they are.

[Mike]

I have heard that high nitrates are not as bad for fish as for corals, but I think they can still be a stressor when they get that high. If it is stress inducing the ich, hopefully the water change helps and they keep eating. If the grouper is still not eating, live ghost shrimp may induce a feeding response. Also garlic.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks I just checked my nitrates even after the water change and they are still high and the water has a slight fish smell not bad but noticable should I do another aggressive water change and see how that does?

[StevenSeas]

Ya nitrates are definitely the culprit here. The high nitrates stress fish and they inhibit a fish's immune system and causes them to use more energy for basic bodily functions. This makes it harder for them to fight off diseases that they are exposed to or currently are carriers of. Your angel looks to be covered in cryptocaryon (marine ich) which is much easier to treat and isnt as bad (relatively) as freshwater ich. I would keep feeding with the vitamins/amino acids as before. The amino acids (if a high quality mixture, for an angel I recommed angelixer) will make it much easier for the fish to digest/utilize their food and be able to fight off an infection.

Also the large water change shouldn't be a huge issue so long as you didnt kick up a lot of detrius while cleaning. I would recommend a series of a couple of more small water changes 10-20% over the next week or so to get your nitrates to at least under 40 ppm if not 10-20 ppm if possible.

But I would not quarantine your fish as in this case it would probably be more stressful in this situation and stress is the enemy right now.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks I should I do another water change tonight I don't mind staying up with these guys all night if i need to. I can do another change of half or what ever I'm not sure what you meant by detrius I took a turkey baster and cleaned the rocks off while I was cleaning if that is what you mean then I did do that is there anything else I should do right now?

[Fegenbush]

I fed a small amount of flakes and the angel has not lost it's appetite as of yet, thank God!!!

[Fegenbush]

I feel terrible I trusted one of those miracle products that you guys say not to trust and I have just about killed these beautiful fish! but as long as they are breathing and eating I'll do what ever it takes to keep them alive!!!

[reefreak]

Hey man if it's ick you might want to try a cleaner wrasse they will eat everything off of them and the fish love it!

[StevenSeas]

I would probably wait till tomorrow to do another water change so you dont freak the fish out too much. But I would start mixing salt now so that you are ready. Probably a 20% w/c tomorrow. And yes the detrius is what you would have kicked up while cleaning off your rocks. If you can or have a really fine microfiber pad or filter sock I would put a clean one on now to pick up the detritus and remove it in the morning.

[StevenSeas]

what "miracle" product have you been using? How long?

[Fegenbush]

the way my grouper is acting right now he won't eat anything but when he is feeling good he would eat a wrasse in a minute..:bigsmile:

[Fegenbush]

a product called Aquabella it's supposed to put some kind of nitrafying bacteria in the tank that turns nitates into nitrogen and dispurse through the bubbles is how I understood it. I have been using it since Feb 27th until now and have not done a water change of any kind since then until now. the fish were doing fine until this Satuday when it looked like the bottom fell out and they become sick.

[Fegenbush]

I have a wet/dry sump and I did change the filter in it before turning it back on after the water change. should I change it again tomorrow after I change the water again?

[Fegenbush]

My nitrates are still 80 - 160 according to the API test and yes I know to shake the number 2 bottle for 30 seconds before adding the 10 drops...:wink_smile:

[Fegenbush]

Sorry it's so late guys but I pastor a church here in Kerrville and I was gone counciling a while ago. but now i'm back and ready to work!!!!

[StevenSeas]

lol. Well I dont know if there is much more that I would do tonight. Just for fear of risking stressing your fish out further. As far as your grouper goes I wouldnt feed him for about 4-7 days until you get your nitrates under control... Food whether it is eaten or not directly contributes to nitrates. And your grouper can definitely go that long or longer without eating so dont worry about that. His loss of appetite is most likely directly related to the high nitrates that you are seeing in your tank now.

[Mike]

For the ich, try feeding little amounts multiple times a day. Our opinion is that as long as they continue to eat, hopefully they will be fine. Are you only feeding flake or pellets and no frozen? What about nori for the angel? Some PE mysis soaked in garlic might get the grouper to eat. I think you said you fed him a silverside before. How big is he and how much and how often does he normally eat? Does he normally eat the other food in between the bigger silverside meals? Hope things turn around.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks guys I have a preditor tank a Lion fish about 10 Inches a Grouper about 8 inches aa Angel about 5 inches and a Snowflake Eel about 20 inches. I feed frozen silver sides that I thaw out in warm water before I feed them and never have any left over around the tank! these guys can eat I feed the Angel flakes called Omega One from the LFS. I feed about ten to twelve silver sides every two days.

[Fegenbush]

is there ever a time you guys get together for coffee and talk fish stuff, I would like to meet you guys and shake your hand in thanks, no matter how this turns out you guys have really helped me out and I appreciate it!

[Mike]

Those are some pretty big fish and big fish have big waste, hence the high nitrates. Miracle products aside, I think regular WC are the way to go...

[Fegenbush]

thanks this is my first SW tank and I don't want to screw it up! my downfall is I'm a perfectionist not to others, just myself, and I can't stand when I mess things up especially if there are lives at stake...lol

[Fegenbush]

I had some coraline alge growing pretty good for a while there and now it even looks like it is not as much on the sides of the tank as it was. it wasn't thick it was just starting in kind of round specks on the sides.

[Mike]

The club has a monthly meeting. In a couple of weeks we have a clam expert coming from FL to give a presentation. Come check out meeting and meet people.

[SoLiD]

One thing that hasn't been asked is what kind of skimmer do you have? With a Huge Bio Load, I would recommend that you pick up the biggest baddest skimmer that you can afford to get rid of some of that waste before it has a chance to make it into the Nitrogen Cycle (added Nitrates). Perhaps a Super Reef Octopus 5000 or some other Inexpensive Skimming Beast. I actually didn't see any tank specifications such as size tank, mechanical filtration, sand type and depth, amount of live rock, and the list goes on and on.........

http://www.aquacave.com/Reef-Octopus-SUPER-SRO-5000SSS-In-Sump-Protein-Skimmer-P2588C657.aspx

[alton]

Solid advice from everyone, keep doing your water changes. Also with your bio load you may want to look into soft corals like green star polyps, xenia, mushrooms, kenyan trees to help your nitrates stay around 20ppm. The corals I mentioned do not require a lot of light and are normally not eaten by the fish listed, plus are very cheap, sometimes given away.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks guys the specks of my tank are:
75GL Oceanic
a wet/dry sump rated for 125GL with a 2500 GPH Rio+ Aqua pump in it.
a hang on the back skimmer called a Skilter I believe probably not enough
I have about 60-70 LB of live rock.
about 1 inch of live sugar sized sand.
2 Pencil Urchins
17 Blue legged hermits
a Serpent star, a Choclate Chip Star.
5 big Zebra snails.
5 Turbo snails.

[Kristy]

a hang on the back skimmer called a Skilter I believe probably not enough

Yep, there's your problem! Well, that and the miracle potion. Hard to beat the benefits of good old-fashioned water changes, especially on those tanks full of big, messy eaters.

Get yourself a decent skimmer in the sump and do some regulater water changes and you will do right by those gorgeous and expensive fish you are keeping!

[blupez]

Cleaner wrasse do not eat ich. The same goes for cleaner shrimp. The white spot is a cyst formed after the parasite has burrowed into the flesh of its host. They are great tank mates in providing a symbiotic assistance to fish by keeping them clean from necrotic tissue, damaged scales etc. They can eat external parasites but not anything that has made its way into the flesh such as ich.

[Mike]

Your 75g is probably a little tight for these guys also. That is a lot of inches of fish in fairly tight quarters. It might be contributing to their stress levels.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks to all who have again helped me calm down and breathe:blushing: I probably get too panic stricken too fast but when you wake up one morning to see a beautiful Angel Fish looking like a powdered donut I was fit to be tied! Thanks again and I guess I'll have to look for a better skimmer maybe the Reef Octopus SoLid was talking about one that will handle 125 GL or better.

[hobogato]

i agree with mike, it may be time to start looking for a bigger home for these fish if you are planning to keep them all.

[Fegenbush]

I was hoping to get better expierienced before changing tanks. I have a 125 GL freshwater that I was going to convert one day, but if I can't handle a 75 then I sure don't need one bigger...lol

[hobogato]

well, an overstocked 75 will be harder to care for than a larger tank that is not overstocked.

[Fegenbush]

Your right hobogato, I will start working on the change I need that Skimmer first though. the sump that I have is rated for a 125 so no problem there. the two power heads I have are good enough I just need to take an entire day to change it over. My wife's fish are in the 125 right now. we need to get them into a container temporarily and then clean the tank and get it ready for the SW transition. then do the same with the 75 to make it the freshwater. This is going to be a J O B....lol but can I even change one over in a single day using the live rock and live sand that I have? I think I would need more live sand also.

[Scutterborn]

I just got back into town and I'm catching up on your post. I've got some "rose"? pulsing Xenia if you would like to add it. Free of charge. That should help to slowly pull the nitrates down and help maintain the level. Pm me if your interested.

[hobogato]

yep, you should be able to switch tanks with minimal effect. you will probably want to add some extra live rock as well. if you get some that is well cured and keep it wet enough transporting it home you should be ok to add that as you change it over. you may be better off getting new sand vs reusing your old stuff as there can be some really nasty stuff in the sand bed that you definitely dont want to stir up into the water.

[Fegenbush]

Sure Scutterborn if that will bring my Nitrates down naturally I don't know how to PM anybody so I hope you get this message. I'll try to PM if I can figure it out.
Any way I just checked my water again and found that now my ammonia is zero my nitries are zero my nitrates are acceptable but my PH is 7.8- 8.0 and it is usually 8.2 - 8.4 the fish may still be in shock from the water change again today but this time I didn't stir up the stuff settled on the live rock. is there anything to bring the PH up but time and with only Wal-Mart open at this time?

[Mike]

How does the angel look now? Any better?

To send a PM, at top right is thing called notifications, right next to your name or you can find a post from who you want to PM and click on name and it is one of your drop down options...

[Mike]

We can contribute some kenya tree also as a softie coral to try to grow and absorb some nitrates... do you make it to SA often?

[Mike]

dripping kalk can raise your PH, but be careful not to raise it too high too fast...

[SoLiD]

Your right hobogato, I will start working on the change I need that Skimmer first though. the sump that I have is rated for a 125 so no problem there. the two power heads I have are good enough I just need to take an entire day to change it over. My wife's fish are in the 125 right now. we need to get them into a container temporarily and then clean the tank and get it ready for the SW transition. then do the same with the 75 to make it the freshwater. This is going to be a J O B....lol but can I even change one over in a single day using the live rock and live sand that I have? I think I would need more live sand also.

You Must "Take" Sump, Skimmer, and Product Ratings with a "Grain of Salt" (pun intended). Most manufactures pad or over estimate their product to justify a higher asking price. The ratings will give you a general idea but don't hold them to it. I have a "Heavily" stocked 40 Gallon Breeder with a 30 Gallon Sump. I run a skimmer rated for 160 gallons and it has worked well for me. That said, nothing beats having a higher total water volume, good ol'water changes, and having plenty of live rock.

-David

Here is something I read a while back that has stuck with me throughout the years:

The Solution to Pollution is Dilution.

[Fegenbush]

OK I just checked my water this morning and here are the results:
Salinity is ---- 1.024
PH----------- 8.2
Ammonia----- 0 ppm
Nitrites------ 0 ppm
Nirtates----- 80 ppm
So to me it seems that the water is OK other than the nitrates but they are lower then they have been this past week.
the urchins, snails, hermit crabs, and starfish seem to be doing fine. my lion fish's eyes are starting to cloud some and the grouper looks Ok but his appetite is not at all what it was. Now that being said I remember they all were doing fine UNTIL I bought a new pack of frozen silver sides. I thawed them out and put them in a different container and threw the plasic bag they came in away so I don't remember the brand. Could it be that these silver sides are bad? and have made them all sick? can fish get food poisoning? that is the only common factor to link these fishes behavior even the angel fish would pick some of the silver side out of the tongs, so they all ate the same thing and thats when I noticed now that I think back the grouper who will eat till he almost pops took one fish and went and hid and has not really been the same since. Anybody have some answers for this?
You guys are the greatest!!!!

[Fegenbush]

Well things are somewhat looking up my Grouper just ate his fill of new frozen krill that I bought, so I'm very encouraged with that! I guess from here it's baby steps and alot of TLC but I don't want to love these fish to death!...lol:bighug:

[Bill S]

Feeding silversides is like dropping a dead fish in your tank. The grouper that will eat until he "almost pops" isn't doing your tank much good - much of what he eats just passes through. Same with the lionfish. These fish are BIG poopers. I would strongly suggest some aggressive water changes to get the nitrates below 40ppm. 20ppm would be better. And feed a little more carefully - don't stuff them.

[Big_Pun]

I agree with bill. water changes and slow down on feeding. they do not need to eat their fill of food.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks I didn't mean I feed them that much...lol maybe ten good silversides total and I never just put them in they grab them out of the tongs as fast a I can put them in.But the grouper is hard to get by he's fast as heck at feeding time.
He is eating fine now the angel fish looks like swimming death, the Loin fish isn't eating but it's only been a couple of days so I know it isn't bad yet but his eyes are clouding over. The Eel is not eating either but it eat good a couple of days ago too so maybe they are going to be alright. I have done two aggersive water changes in the last two days of more than 30% each so the water is looking better. I just bought and installed the skimmer from Big_Pun it is an Sea Side Aqauatic CS1 it is foaming great right now so I'll see how that helps, it can't hurt.

[Bill S]

10 silversides is like putting 10 dead fish in your tank - eaten or not eaten.

Eyes clouding over are NOT good. If you change 30% times 2, that only drops the the nitrates down to 40. Right now, you NEED to be under 20. Healthy fish can tolerate nitrates better than yours. And if you are continuing to feed - especially silversides - it's going to keep popping up towards 100. If you are going to continue to feed 10 silversides at a time, you need to think about getting a pallet of salt delivered to keep up with this.

[hobogato]

i agree with chris and bill, that is probably way too much food if you are giving them that much every day. you may also consider varying their diet a bit as they would eat many different kinds of prey in the wild.

[Sherita]

What Ace said. 10 silversides is way too much food, particularly given every other day. Predators need a varied diet in order to thrive. A 75g tank is pretty small for the size of fish you have, but until you can upgrade you need to aggressively work on getting those nitrates under control. Your fish are already stressed, the high 'trates is not helping the situation at all. Upgrade on the skimmer as quickly as possible, cut down on feeding and vary the diet for your fishes, run a carbon reactor if at all possible, and water changes routinely and frequently.

To give you an example, I also run a 75g predator tank. Inhabitants are: 18" zebra moray, 5" red dwarf lion, 6" marine betta, 2" flame angel, three nps rock nems. I feed every three days, 1tablespoon full of pacific krill, chopped clams/mussels, or chopped fish flesh (for the lion, angel and betta), and a 1" x 1" chunk of thawed food for the eel (this can be squid, mussels, clams, octopus, table shrimp, human grade fish). Twice a week I clip a small piece of nori to the glass in case the angel wants to graze, sometimes he does, sometimes the urchin gets it. I do weekly 10% water changes, run a LARGE refugium, a carbon reactor that is changed twice a month, and a skimmer rated for 200+ gallons. My 'trates are rarely near 20, but if I see them creeping up I do an immediate water change.

If your angel has ich, a cleaner will not help. You will either need to qt and treat with hypo or copper, or leave it in the tank and reduce stress as much as possible and hope for the best.

Good luck with your fish. The first order of business needs to be getting those nitrates down, and upgrading the skimmer. A high quality food is another necessity, get some good quality frozen food, in a variety. And offer your angel nori a couple of times a week.

[Fegenbush]

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You.....:) I appreciate the advice and will try to do better by these fish! Big_Pun gave me a couple of pieces of soft corals to get started too.

[Fegenbush]

you guys are right I have my new Skimmer installed and going....Check
I have started some soft corals to help with nitrates......Check
I have changes to Krill and a preditor blend.......Check
I haven't fed as much in the last three days.....Check
the only thing I need to ...Check .....now is the water quality again
I will let you know in a bit.
Thanks to all you guys hope to see you at the Clam Discussion on the 14th.

[Fegenbush]

Well I tried everything I could but I think is was too much too late at 7:45 P.M. wednesday night my Angel passed away. I would take time to grieve more but I still got a sick Lion to try and save. He is doing better but not out of the mariana trench yet. his eyes are still a little cloudy and he hasn't eaten in three days but he ate good three days ago so I think as far as hunger he'll be alright for now. I have also installed a really good really big Skimmer the Sea Side Auqatics CS1. I have also done what the LFS has told me to do when I went to get some meds.
I'm using ERYTHROMYCIN by taking water out of the Main Tank about 2 1/2 gallons mixing the meds per insrtuctions putting the fish in the mix for an hour and then putting them back into the tank after replacing the water removed with fresh SW that has actually helped in small water changes and has brought my nitrates to between 40 & 80 which is better than it has been since I've had this tank. I've only had this tank at my home for two or three months, but it was an established tank for three years or more. But the nitrates have always seemed high. I'm workin on it. How much does stock cost in Instant Ocean.....:clown:

[SoLiD]

A Seaside CS1 is a good skimmer for a 75 Gallon tank, and probably a world better than what you had, but I believe it isn't enough to handle your current bio load even without the Emperor Angel. That's just my opinion. I also seriously doubt you will ever see your nitrates below 40 ppm; there just isn't enough total water volume. Just be sure to do "Weekly" water changes of at least 10%; because you are fighting an uphill battle with those big poopers in your small set up. Good Luck and please don't be discouraged. Continue to gain knowledge and experience, so that you plan accordingly to help you to be successful.

[Big_Pun]

bio pellets will get your nitrates down. they would be perfect for a fowlr
tank. from first hand experience(not because unsold it to you) but that skimmer is a beast and handle fully loaded 75 easily. thats why im running the cs-2 on my new set up. if you need any help with bio pellets let me know.

[Fegenbush]

I have made a decision to take the grouper out of the tank and to the LFS he is great but also the reason that I have to feed so much. Every time I try to feed the Eel with the tongs the grouper will come from one end of the tank to the other before you can blink or react and snatch what ever you got in those tongs. I have tried feeding him on one end of the tank while trying to sneak some food to the eel on the other and that booger still snatches everything until he's full he will wrestle anything. Many times when the Eel does get food He grabs the other end even up to putting the eel's head in his mouth to get it away from him....lol It's funny to watch and I have to push him away with the tongs but I know that it makes me have to feed more than I should, so I guess I will try lightning my bio load. Any adive on this?????

[SoLiD]

bio pellets will get your nitrates down. they would be perfect for a fowlr
tank. from first hand experience(not because unsold it to you) but that skimmer is a beast and handle fully loaded 75 easily. thats why im running the cs-2 on my new set up. if you need any help with bio pellets let me know.

Not trying to argue, so please don't be upset. Please, just look at the facts.

Small total water volume not matched for the total size, weight, feeding requirements of the fishes and eel.
High Nitrates even after multiple water changes.
Big Fish with big appetites = Lots of waste.

Those big guys should be in a minimum of 180-240, or pollution will always be a concern. Still think a CS1 will handle a 180. I think not. It simply can't keep up and it wasn't designed to run on a 180 gallon system. Thus a bigger over sized skimmer to try to compensate for such a small water volume. But oh well, I guess I'm just upset because it has always been a dream of mine to have an Emperor Angel "Thriving" and not just living in an aquarium. It was the ultimate fish on my list before I knew what type of set up I would have to put together for it to thrive. I know that mixed reef systems are what I want so I will never own one. To each his own. :cry_smile:

[SoLiD]

I have made a decision to take the grouper out of the tank and to the LFS he is great but also the reason that I have to feed so much. Every time I try to feed the Eel with the tongs the grouper will come from one end of the tank to the other before you can blink or react and snatch what ever you got in those tongs. I have tried feeding him on one end of the tank while trying to sneak some food to the eel on the other and that booger still snatches everything until he's full he will wrestle anything. Many times when the Eel does get food He grabs the other end even up to putting the eel's head in his mouth to get it away from him....lol It's funny to watch and I have to push him away with the tongs but I know that it makes me have to feed more than I should, so I guess I will try lightning my bio load. Any adive on this?????

You are learning grasshopper. :bighug:

[Fegenbush]

Yeah SoLid I am learning but I should have learned before I bought... and on another note I have a real nice Choclate Chip Starfish about 2 1/2 inches and now I have read where they will eat soft corals like Xenias for dinner! He's going with the grouper...lol Not because I don't like him I would love a tank full of beautiful fish but alas I should use wisdom, I need knowledge first, because without knowledge wisdom cannot thrive. Any way I am learning and thanks to this forum site I have taken great steps. I'm going to SA tomorrow to do a wedding rehersal Groupie and Patrick (from Sponge Bob) are going with me....:bigsmile:

[SABOB]

Don't be too hard on yourself, We've all made mistakes. The key is to learn from them,so you don't keep repeating the same. You sound like you are learning,ask questions here and do lots of research.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Kristy]

Agree, we've all made our share of mistakes and the learning curve is steep in this hobby. You definitely seem like you are trying to do right by your animals and that shows that you and your tanks will be just fine. We all make some mistakes in the beginning. The folks who learn from those mistakes are the ones who go on to be good responsible reefkeepers. Look forward to meeting you at the meeting next weekend.

PS: Gotta figure it was only a matter of time for that grouper anyway, right? Thoise things get ridiculously big and there's not many aquarists who have an appropriate setup to offer a fish of that size. This might be sooner than you'd hoped to rehome him, but this day was definitely coming.

[Sherita]

Very wise decision if you ask me. Now your eel will get proper nutrition and you can concentrate on getting those params under control.

[hobogato]

:thumbs_up: i agree

[Sherita]

Don't thump on yourself, we have all screwed up in one way or another. No one is born knowing how to do this, we all learn by our mistakes. I am very sorry to hear that you lost your angel, that's heartbreaking :(

Like everyone else said, learn from your mistakes (and the mistakes that the rest of us make!) and you will be just fine. It takes time and experience, but being willing to listen and learn is half the battle already won.

Keep working on that tank, and if you need help just ask. Someone here will be happy to help you.

[Fegenbush]

Thank you all for your words of incouragement I started to get really down on myself and I have always known that Sw tanks were for the rich and famous but here I am right in the middle of owning one. OK I take the responsibility seriously I will do my dead level best to make this work because I love the ocean I have dove the depts of it all around the globe and always wanted part of it in my home. Well here it is, and now I have a mini ocean in my living room. Awsome. but on top of having it, I want it to be healthy and happy so here we go. Thanks to all of you "MAASTards" (no pun intended) your stuck with me and I'm glad I'm stuck with you all. I have a lot to learn and I may post forums in the wrong places or not know what SPS or LPS means or LFS or some of the other terms are but I will learn. actually I do know what all of the ones that I just listed are, but only because of you guys on this site. I'm not giving up, I never give up, but my finances limit me, so as long as MAAST will take me I'll take MAAST you guys are the greatest!!!!! Joseph the Diving Pastor...:bighug:

[Fegenbush]

What did the fish say when it hit a cement wall?................................DAM!!!!:clown :

[Fegenbush]

Let me know where meeting is going to be I really want to make it!!!

[Scutterborn]

Saturday is the next mtg. How bout an update?

[Mike]

Was wondering how the lion fish was doing?

[Fegenbush]

Sorry So late with the reply Mike and Kristy and All But I have been absolutly beside myself! the lion fish as the Angel seemed to get better and then take a drastic turn for the worse and now I have the Lion QT'd and he is not feeling really well at all. He hasn't eaten in four or five days even live food! I don't know what to do!!!!!!! I suck at this SW stuff and I don't know why I seem to be doing the right things but they don't seem to be working like they should! Should I break the tank down and start over, Cleaning everything really good and then returning the corals and urchins and snails and such back into the clean tank? Maybe that Microbial stuff I put in there is working against me I just don't know. The Eel seem to be Ok though his appetite isn't what it was before.
My PH 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates are still 80+
even after the extensive water changes I have done.
by the way when I take the Lion Fish out of the tank and into the QT my net smelled like dead fish!!!
Any advice at this point would be a God send!

[SoLiD]

Sorry to hear that you are still fighting these issues. It can really wear a guy down worrying so much. I've never had a predator or FOWLR system so I can't really advise you on what to do there, but in a Reef type system you definitely want to keep things stable and on a constant. Try skimming extra wet and replacing the water it draws out with the appropriate amount of salt water. Skimming wet does pull out salt along with the fresh water so you have to monitor your salinity closely. It might help??? Sorry I couldn't offer more help.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks I can't figure this out yet. But I won't give up

[BSJF]

Sometimes trying too hard isn't the answer. Do what you can for your fishies, but don't put yourself through so much stress. This is a hobby and you are supposed to enjoy doing it. Sometimes, you can't save fish. I have tried and tried, and honestly, I rarely medicate any more, the strong fish make it, others don't. I have killed as many fish as I have saved trying too hard. Not to mention all the money spent on medications.

A big tank to start with and an outstanding filtration system is the only way to go with the predator tank you are describing. The angel was low man on the totem pole and would have been stressed from just being that. Hope you are able to get things turned around.

[Mike]

+1 on what Lorraine said (BSJF). In the beginning we were advised and even tried freshwater dips as a parasite cure. Anything you do to stress out an already sick and ailing fish cannot be good. Good water quality and reduced stress along with trying to keep them eating so their strength stays up is our recommendation. It sucks, but live and learn for the future and try not to make the same mistakes twice.

[Bill S]

Over the MANY years, I've had my share of ups and downs. If I quit the hobby every time something went wrong, I'd have been out 20 times...

As noted above, I agree with the "stable" sentiment. I'd try and keep everything in the big tank where they are "home" if you can. BIG water changes will also be beneficial. 50% is not too much at a time. I did an 85% change on a small tank on Thursday. I do it monthly. On a tank under 100 gallons that isn't PACKED with SPS, I prefer water changes to dosing. Just buy salt in bulk, and an RO/DI unit (Buckeye Field Supply). Way cheaper than new livestock!

[Fegenbush]

Thanks again Ya'll the Lion isn't spleepin tonight....lol I think I may have found a clue but I don't want to say that's it yet. I bought the only book Hastings here had " The complete idiot's guide to Saltwater Aquariums " I figured they were talking straight to me... But it touched on not using tap water which is what I have been doing. I put the Prime additive in it but It may not work like it is supposed to. So, with that said I have checked my tap water with and without salt added. and the results were flat across the board as far as ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates was concerned. but the symtoms that they describe for Ammonia levels sound like that is what it is, everybody else seems to be fine though. I have not aged my saltwater which could be a reason I have made water changes and mixed up the salt and made sure it was desolved totally before putting it in the tank but never overnight or anything. My saliniy remains at 1.023 so I'm not sure if that could be the culprit or not. still studying. it says ammonia could cause the fish to have excessive mucus which is what the lion had. he looks better right now so fingers crossed and prayers said...:nailbiting:

[Bill S]

You are in Kerrville, but I think your water should be OK. Not great, but OK - certainly not enough to kill your fish. Might have algae problems, etc. though.

I don't age my RO/DI water. I mix with a powerhead until dissolved. Always have.

Just a thought: What are you testing your salinity with? If it's NOT a FLOATING HYDROMETER, you might have a problem:

- Swing arm hydrometers are notorious for changing over time. If you have one, check it against a known sample, or throw it out. These things have killed more fish...

- Refractometer. They must be regularly calibrated with both high and low samples.

[Fegenbush]

thanks bstreep,
It is a swing arm but it is new only a few months (maybe three) old. I just can't put my finger on it. the only thing I can tie all the behavior together with is the silversides I bought from the LFS and started feeding. I threw the rest out in hopes that it was the probelm, but the lion fish hasn't eaten in four or five days now and does not look well though he's hanging on. the Eel is not eating too good itself although it has taken a piece every now and then. all else is doing great the water Perems are right other than the nitrates, but they are less now than they have been for a long time due to the water changes I have done. just watching and waiting. thanks again!

[alton]

Tap water can be used in some cases, in others it is a gamble. When our office was on West avenue the tap there had 10ppm of nitrates. Mine here at home has an excellent TDS of only 100, but sometimes coming out of the shower head it smells like dead tank water. Our water comes from south of Gonzales, and that is alot of water pipes that it has to travel and sit in before it gets to me. Since our water levels have been down because of the drought, the water quality has suffered also. The fact that you no longer have a big bio load on your display tank, the nitrates should of dropped like a rock. Can you post a discription of your filter system and if you test your tap water for nitrates.

[Sherita]

If your nitrates are still high, it's got to be coming from somewhere. Just a thought, but when you do your water changes, are you blowing off the rocks before you start? Use a small powerhead and blow all the detritus and junk into the water column before you do a water change. You might be shocked at how much shows up.

A few months back I was fighting a huge nitrate spike in my predator tank, water changes and wet skimming weren't really helping. One day, when I had all day to devote to the problem, I decided to get to the bottom of the issue. One puff of the turkey baster on the rocks blew up an incredible cloud of crap. I already had 40 gallons of seasoned saltwater ready to go, so I put a filter pad in the bubble trap on my sump to catch the suspended garbage, grabbed a small powerhead and started blowing rocks off. By the time I was done, I had most of it out and trapped in the filter pad. I then did a huge water change, turned the skimmer up and ran it wet, put new carbon in the reactor and a fresh filter pad in the bubble trap (had to change it twice more before it quit getting nasty). Within a few days, my trates dropped like a rock, my fish were happier, and the skimmer quit going nuts. I run a fairly heavy bioload for a 75g tank, but I spend a lot of time working on that tank, with weekly water changes and twice a month carbon reactor changes, way oversize skimmer, and overkill on keeping the tank/rocks/substrate/sump clean.

Your nitrates didn't get this high in one day, and you are not going to get them down in one day. It takes a multi-pronged approach when stuff like this gets out of hand. Keep at it and you will get a handle on the problem, it's just going to take a lot of work.

[Fegenbush]

Thanks Alton, My specs are:
75 Gallon Oceanic
60-75 pounds of live rock in the tank.
wd125 Eshopps sump
a sea side aquatics CS1 skimmer I also left the skilter skimmer hanging on the back running.
two Hydor power heads on a wave timer
and that is it for now I have no more room in the sump for equipment
though I think I would like some type of reactor be it bio pellets or carbon or what ever.
I run the skimmer as close to wet but not quite and clean it every day. it has some pretty nasty stuff in it every morning.
My Lion fish died last night....:cry_smile: And I'm thinking of giving my snowflake eel another home. my nitrates are coming down even this morning they are a little more than 40 ppm so with the bio load cut in half or more I guess it will be alright. I need a bigger CUC according to the book I bought yesterday so I'm going on line to look for some more janitors...:)
Thanks guys AGAIN!!!! Thank you too Sherita yeah my rocks do have a lot on them probably and now I can clean them better but I have some Xenias now and don't want to blow them away. one of my big zebra snails found one last night and dislodged it from the rocks! dang it. I put it back but may have to glue it on.

[Sherita]

If your xenia are not firmly attached (or are on smaller rocks), put them down low on the rock you want them on. They will slowly climb upwards onto the rocks. Once attached, you can't get the things off, LOL. Mine started on the sandbed, they have now made their way all the way to the top of the overflow.

And if you lose yours, let me know. I have a 20g tank completely packed with the stuff to the point of stopping up the drains.

[Fegenbush]

Cool thanks I guess now I can slow down and breath as much as I didn't want the outcome I got, I have to press on Thanks Sherita, I hope to make the clam discussion on the 14th in SA and right now I'll take any freebe softies anyone wants to get rid of.......... I'll probably regret that later but for now I'm ready....:bigsmile:

[Scutterborn]

I didn't know it was possible to regret adding corals and softies! Haha! Seems impossible...

[Sherita]

I didn't know it was possible to regret adding corals and softies! Haha! Seems impossible...

You've never dealt with a xenia or gsp infestation, have you?:lauging:

They are the weeds of the aquarium world. And just as hard to control. Think "kudzu", only underwater.

[alton]

You've never dealt with a xenia or gsp infestation, have you?:lauging:

They are the weeds of the aquarium world. And just as hard to control. Think "kudzu", only underwater.

GSP is easy to control, just sell the rock it is on, problem solved. On Xenia freswater/low salinity dips kills it very quickly or drop your Nitrates to 0 and it is toast. Both are excellent for large fish tanks

[Mike]

Kenya trees for the win... Although my angels nip them in the FOWLR. They do not nip the Xenia.

[Scutterborn]

So far I've only needed to frag off the Xenia once. I can see where it may get tiresome as the years go by... I'm still new! All this is still hugely fascinating to me. Lol! I'm not tired of the work yet...

[Fegenbush]

Funny thing happened to me at 6:30 this morning. One of my zebra snails about the size of a quarter or little bigger than a nickel got in to my over flow and tried to get into the siphon tube and stopped it enough to run about a gallon and half of water on to the floor!!!! How wierd is that?? If we wouldn't have been sitting there it could have been disaterous!! But cleaned up the water cleaned the overflow and the tubing and the sump pump and some other things while I was at it, so no big loss. but if I weren't here it could have crashed the tank! how do you keep those snails from out of the over flow? It had to actually climb up and over the teeth of the box and then back into the water on the inside!
Dang thing....:at_wits_end:

[Scutterborn]

I've heard of folks putting eggcrate inside the overflows, cut just right mind you. Keeps those curious I'll guys out of harms way.

[Mike]

Cut eggcrate or foam to fit the top or get a intake cover. Not sure if you could use them with an overflow box, in either the J tube or drain.