Which is better a bought reef or.....

[350gt]

a reef tank that was created from little frags and matured properly?

Having a discussion with a friend and he calls my tank LR with little corals. I have seen a few of my little corals grow from a quarter sized piece to a size of a soft ball. I have some random pieces I bought from Big Pun that werent looking to hot when i bought them, he knew it and gave me his word he would replace them if anything didnt make it, well they all did and are beginning to branch off..... I have seen hair algae run wild in my tank then go away all with a little hand work and help from my tangs and cleaning crew....

My tank isnt the best, its no where near the best and I never claimed it to be..... I dont plan it to be for a few years, if that...... But thats not why I am into this.... its not about hey look at my cool reef tank, its like hey look at all the hard work I put into creating such a delicate eco system.....

I can easily go dump a few stacks at all the LFS and have a LEGO reef, but whats the fun in that? Oh thats right to say hey look at my cool reef tank........

[Zack]

I would say the reef tank raised from small frags for a couple of reasons. First off, anyone can go out and buy a LEGO reef, it takes someone with a certain set of skills and patience to turn small frags into beautiful corals. I feel like the feeling you would get looking at your tank and saying to yourself, "Those zoas were only a 4 head frag when I got them, now there's over 100 heads" would be much more rewarding then saying, "I went across town and dropped a couple of bills and acclimated it to my tank today" when your showing off your tank. Furthermore, I feel like a reef that was started with frags would be much more stable in the long run. The huge corals could have some sort of pest that they could potentially leach to your other corals and ruin your set up, where as the frags that you've had forever and grown out would be pest free. Right now, my tank is in the LR with little corals phase but every couple of days I'll see some minute differences in the corals or a new head or a baby polyp and the feeling that you get from that makes it all worth it IMO.

[allan]

Yeah, I'm with the LR with frags concept.

I've picked up two colonies since I started, one from bscuk and the other from Lorraine. Both are toast. But I managed to frag both and those frags have turned into colonies them selves. I've got two, and a third starting, colonies from the one I got from Lorraine.

I've got a few sps colonies that started as a little stick or smudge on a frag plug that are now teenager colonies. Zoa colonies anywhere from 200-400 heads, from an original count of five.

Who wants to buy a lifted 4x4 running 35s... When half the fun of that truck is putting it together yourself.

Besides, I'd much rather lose a $30 frag than a $100 colony.

[hobogato]

another vote for starting with frags and watching them grow here. i just wish it was easier or possible to raise more types of fish from babies as well. that has also been very rewarding to do.

[alton]

As a rule I don't mind spending $10 to $25 for a frag and if it doesn't make oh well, but if I bought a colony for a bunch of money I would cry if it died. Although I did buy a small colony from GC Reef for $60 but have fragged it a bunch since I have had it. Some like my boss do not have the patience to wait, they want coraline rocks with full grown corals right away, but hey he has the money. Some like buying colonies keeping them and fragging later to get some of there money back, and that is fine too.

[profntbtr]

i concur with what everybody else said. best part of this hobby is the reward of successfully sustaining life, and having it thrive. i would rather purchase a pencil eraser frag than one big colony. i love being able to say that started as a nub, or 2 polyps, or a 1/4"x1/4" chunk. it's a great feeling. if this hobby is something you plan to do for a long while, you can have the same awesomness as the guy who spent a whole bunch of money, at the cost of 5-25 bucks. additionally, frags are the most environmentally sound method of stocking, as the colonies are usually wild collected. it is a great way to minimize the impact our hobby has on the world, hopefully preserving the future of coral reefs for generations to come.

[allan]

Different strokes for different folks.

If I had bought a bunch of coral colonies when starting out, I wouldn't have gotten such a grasp on what a particular coral is worth. X and Y are cost of the frag vice the time it takes to grow. Some are just too easy to form a colony in a few months, while others like my Garf Bonsai has taken over two years to become a colony that's about the size of a baseball. It's next to a red planet that I've had for the same amount of time, and the RP is about the size of a softball.

By the way Ace, I've got that frag for you of the blue zoas.

[Europhyllia]

Different strokes for different folks.


I like that thought. Not really sure that trying to make a case of what is better is very productive.
I also liked prof's comment about 'sustaining life'. But you know what: sustaining life could happen from colonies or from frags. If somebody is dedicated and willing to learn then why would it be worse for them to start with colonies than with frags.
Personally I hated the random tiny frags look from my 125g tank. It was part of the reason I chose a Caribbean Gorgo reef for my next tank. The itty bitty frag look drives me nuts. A PS gorgo piece starts out in a visible size and grows well so you can divide it into more decent sized organisms later.

I am with the 'whatever floats your boat' crowd. You do what you want and I'll do what I want. :) Fear judges, love enjoys ;) - it's all good (unless you are ransacking the natural reefs to make yours look great). And we've had both types of tank owners in our TOTMs as well. Those that bought big impressive colonies to put in their tanks and those that nursed back damaged little frags to impressive size. It's all nice to look at.

[Cammed_02]

Without a doubt starting a tank from frags. The gratification alone from watching them grow and sustaining life makes it worth the work. I can't tell you how many friends have seen mine and immeadiately said they were gonna start one, but quit once they find out all the work that's involved. It takes a diffent kind of person to sustain this hobby, but that's just part of the fun.

[profntbtr]

i'm not saying it's wrong to start with colonies, just wrong for me. maybe that has something to do with the fact that i only have 24 or so gallons to work with.

[FireWater]

I personally like starting from frags. I think I can honestly say that everything in my tank was started from a frag - some were a little bigger than others. I enjoy watching the stuff grow and then looking back at pics to see how far it has come along.

[350gt]

I agree that it is up to the person and if they want the lego reef, thats fine. But to look at mine and make comments about it not being a reef but rather some LR with frags is where I have the problem.

I have no issues with ppl that buy colonies, but if your buying colonies and dont know what your really doing is where I have a issue... It took me awhile to buy SPS, actually the frags off of big Pun a few months ago were my first, cause I knew I wasnt ready. I remember walking into Gabes and he was always asking me if I was ready to try a frag out and I always declined... I just didnt want to take something home, I wasnt ready for and have to watch it die..... even if it was just a little frag.

[grouch]

I'll give another vote for starting with small frags. Haveing only a Nano tank set up I have watched my 10 to 20 dollor frags fill just about every avaiiable space in my tank. I can't tell you how many times I've stoped at the LFS and went straight to the $10 frags, which I am sure most of them were brought in for store credit by MAAST members. I think these corals are more hardy also being beaten down and only a few polops they still survive and flourish with a little care. I love seeing some of the other members tanks here that have matured for several years and see the size of the colonies that started from frags. Recently I have broken the $20 limit on some small frags of the 'designer named' kind but I still havent gone over $30 and I can spend that in a week with a few beers and some smokes so it really doesn't matter losing one as far as the money goes. Heck I can't even walk out of the house on the weekend with the wife without spending $50 to $100 just doing a little shopping and getting a bite to eat. It's just satisfying to watch my little tank mature with a little care.

[Europhyllia]

I agree that it is up to the person and if they want the lego reef, thats fine. But to look at mine and make comments about it not being a reef but rather some LR with frags is where I have the problem.

ah well but calling other people's reef a lego reef isn't very nice either. ;)
If somebody takes good care of their stuff, gives it a lot of thought beforehand and sticks with it then I really don't care what they start out with. Also look at the people that are saying frags only and what tanks they have.
Easy to say frags are working lovely for you if you have a 20 gallon tank. lol

TOTM winner with 'lego' reef -240 gallon:
http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?66105-TOTM-April-2011-Pennies2Cents

TOTM winner with frag grown reef - 28 gallon:
http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?68500-TOTM-August-2011-Grouch

With a bigger tank (the 125) I was so excited when other members tore down their established tanks and I was able to get some nice big LPS pieces. Finally something that would show in FTS! lol

So in short: I wish the deciding factor of what's better is: care, concern, dedication.
And that doesn't just go for corals, goes for fish as well. They didn't ask to be taken from the ocean. We have a duty to care for them well. Getting a fish and then feeding it maybe twice a week tops because you don't want the fish food/poop to mess with your water quality or putting incompatible fish together or too small a tank to accommodate the fish you buy. That kind of stuff gets to me.

Oh and I totally wish I had a tank big enough for full size gorgo colonies! some dive in 8 foot tall glass front fish room would be awesome!!!

[rrasco]

I get satisfaction out of watching corals grow (I'm over watching fish grow though), but it doesn't really matter to me what people start with. I'm certainly not going to spend $250 on a coral, not unless I start making some bank. The thing about keeping a reef is, well, it takes work, knowledge, and experience. The way I look at it is, a reef is not something anybody can just go spend a bunch of money on and be successful with. They can surely spend a bunch of money, but that doesn't guarantee success. You have to know something about it to get from A to B. Those of us that understand and appreciate it will stick with it and hopefully succeed.

[cowboy572]

I am voting as well for starting with small frags. Everything in my current tank has started out as small frags. I too like to watch stuff go and see how it comes along over time. I just don't have the deep pockets to afford the big colonies, so frags work for me.

[350gt]

I never claimed to be a nice person ;), especially when someone knocks my tank.... And this other tank in question is far from eves tank. I would never call a tank with that much dedication a Lego tank.

[Kristy]

One concept that hasn't been addressed yet in this thread is the size of a sustainable frag, which I think can vary some in different peoples' tanks. We stopped buying frags for a while and switched to only buying bigger frags to colony-sized corals because a tiny three-polyp frag was just too easy to lose in my big 210g tank. It is not better or more responsible *for me* to go with a tiny frag and then let it die versus a 25-polyp frag that I can nurture into a nice big fat colony. I just want to go with what has the best chance of survival.... but I do try to go with aquacultured frags as much as possible.

I read an article a couple months ago in CORAL magazine about a very nice scientific study of the most sustainable size of SPS frags. The 1"+ fared far better than the 0.5 - 0.75" frags if my memory serves correctly on the details. Maybe I can dig it up...

[Regric25]

Although I don't have much of a choice I have always preferred small frags to large colonies. The reason for this is because I (like everyone else) I enjoy and take pride in watching the little corals grow in. Also when I buy a large colony it never seems to fit right with the rock work. Letting corals grow in and out allow it to grow around and shape to the rock work. To me it just looks natural in the long run.

[Europhyllia]

One concept that hasn't been addressed yet in this thread is the size of a sustainable frag, which I think can vary some in different peoples' tanks. We stopped buying frags for a while and switched to only buying bigger frags to colony-sized corals because a tiny three-polyp frag was just too easy to lose in my big 210g tank. It is not better or more responsible *for me* to go with a tiny frag and then let it die versus a 25-polyp frag that I can nurture into a nice big fat colony. I just want to go with what has the best chance of survival.... but I do try to go with aquacultured frags as much as possible.

I read an article a couple months ago in CORAL magazine about a very nice scientific study of the most sustainable size of SPS frags. The 1"+ fared far better than the 0.5 - 0.75" frags if my memory serves correctly on the details. Maybe I can dig it up...

THAT is so true! Nothing like getting a half inch knobby of something you really wanted just to have some fat snail knock it down and never find it again. I've lost things in my 215 never to be seen again because I simply can't find the tiny critter once it falls

[grouch]

Oh and I totally wish I had a tank big enough for full size gorgo colonies! some dive in 8 foot tall glass front fish room would be awesome!!![/QUOTE]

Just seal up your windows and doors and fill the house full of water. LOL And yes Eve does have a beautiful tank. And yes I would probably buy larger colonies and have a much larger tank but I have many other financial responsibilities right now. I always though life would get easiers the older I got but I was wrong !!!

[allan]

Still holding to frags rather than colonies. It's not the FTS that impresses me a week after the tank's cycle. It's the FTS after a year or two that shows the maturation of a year or two of hard work.


There was a thread somewhere here that showed a lot of rich folks and their tanks. Built and brought in by professionals, the owners knew nothing of the work that goes to maintaining or growing it. It's solely an aesthetic addition to their homes and offices.

It's all good to me. It looks nice, and that is a good thing. I have a feeling that a lot of those tanks change colonies from week to month.

Would like to clarify one thing though. LR with Frags (LRWF?).... it's the beginning of a tank! It's expected, actually I would say that it's the beginning of a reef. It's the way they start. Simple as that. I take more pleasure in seeing a coral double in size over a month or three, than increasing in size by .5% over a month.
But I've also picked up softies or LPS that were large such as my devil's hand, or that green disk plate looking coral that I've had for two years and has grown a centimeter. I've a frogspawn with 12-15 heads, and another one 9-12. The former was given to me about a month ago, and the latter was given to me by Bstreep when he was tearing his tank down as a single head. I like both, but get more satisfaction from the one I got from Bill.

When I got the frag of red planet from Rob... well, I think he may have seen something in my eyes.. or imagined it. :) It was a small flat thing on a plug, and I was expecting/wanting branches. He told me right away "don't worry bro-dudeski, it will grow out for a minute then start sending up branches and then it will be red." Now I have a large colony (yes, it can be seen from the door) that continously amazes me.

Nothing in this hobby happens fast, nor do I think a tank with small frags means anything other than "Oh, no worries, it's a young tank." For who hasn't longed for the coraline growth only to lament it later when scraping it off the glass?

[alton]

Hey a spicey topic, I am not bored anymore.

[350gt]

Well said Allan....

And I didn't mean for this to get spicy or out of hand.... Just wanted everyone's opinions on this...
And so far that's all I've got was good opinions....

[alton]

Well said Allan....

And I didn't mean for this to get spicy or out of hand.... Just wanted everyone's opinions on this...
And so far that's all I've got was good opinions....

This is one of the best things I like about MAAST today we can have topics that people can agree to disagree without name calling like on other sites. (Back in 2003/4 you would have several bleeps by now)

[350gt]

Haha I should have joined back then.....

[Cammed_02]

Haha I should have joined back then.....

This!

haha

[allan]

:)

Alton is right, and I wasn't even around back then... but we had our moments in '08 and '09... beginning of '10?

I met a dude here, lives up the street in new brunsfel. He had like three or four coral in this 75 gallon tank. Beautiful. He was growing out those few coral into colonies but he had taken a fewer is better concept that really appealed to me. Sadly he's not on here that often anymore, but I imagine that his tank is looking awesome by now.

It looked really good then, the concept was very evident. Some of the tanks I've seen here in the early stages makes me think things like "Wow, if those few coral grow into true colonies..."

Diving in HI I got a really good idea of what a reef looks like. And it seemed to me a lot of one kind of coral, a little of some others... and then the shrimp, wrasses, snails, fish, star fish, eels, turtles, and a myriad of other organizms flitting about. A single colony bigger than the room where I keep my tank. :)

[Regric25]

This leads to another question and I hope the OP does not mind. If you are like me and have lots of small frags to grow out. Do you do crowd control by trimming back corals or do you let nature take its course and let stuff just grow in together?

Personally I am just letting everything grow in together. I have some palys that are growing SUPER fast and were taking over a rock pretty quickly so in an effort to control how many there are, I simply put my new RBTA right on top of them. Needless to say it eraticated some of them and whats left fits nicely with the anem. I am fixing to trim back some corals this weekend because they are starting to over grow some other favs but for the most part if a zoa or paly grows into a frog spawn or acan ill just let it ride unless of course I have a favorite of the 2 and its losing the battle then ill intervene.

Thoughts?

Woo Hoo 1000th Post!!

[rrasco]

A single colony bigger than the room where I keep my tank. :)

What, like this? :D

http://fathomtaiwan.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/plate-coral.jpg
http://www.ryanphotographic.com/Mike%20and%20huge%20plate%20coral,%20Kadavu,%20Fij i%20copy.jpg

[Troy Valentine]

1349313494
This leads to another question and I hope the OP does not mind. If you are like me and have lots of small frags to grow out. Do you do crowd control by trimming back corals or do you let nature take its course and let stuff just grow in together?

This can be dangerous to your reef, especially with SPS corals. It all started off with 3 harmless thumbnail sized frags on top of my live rock shelf, and in 4 years this is what can happen.

[Europhyllia]

Do you do crowd control by trimming back corals or do you let nature take its course and let stuff just grow in together?
Thoughts?


I am going to combine my answer with what Allan posted about how nature tends to repeat itself rather than have a willy nilly mix of all kinds of different bits. Kind of like a field of wild flowers. You see the same ones repeatedly. And that's what makes it believable for me -natural looking.
I had a Large Polyp Gorgo that had grown really well get eaten up by a purple gorgo that touched it. So I cut off the tip, cut out the injured part and placed the new frag somewhere else.
Or a Knobby Searod just getting too long and looking goofy -cut it into 3 pieces and place those in a little group.
Gorgos and macro can put out stuff that's harsh on other corals so the gorgos are usually the winners.
With gorgos getting so tall and exiting the water they either need to be moved or frag-trimmed. And yes, I do that. But now that I have multiples of stuff it makes it even better looking in my opinion - more natural.
Just like Allan's diving observation.
My goal is to replicate a natural reef though. Others may see their tank more as a showcase of different corals than anything replicating nature.

[Europhyllia]

Troy what a cute idea with the clam tray!!!

[allan]

I have a gorgo that is about 20", and I always cringe when it falls over on something else because it is definitely the dominate creature.

Rrasco, exactly... Only I cringed when I saw that diver so close. Was that you?

I happened onto a few frags a couple years ago and seriously overlooked how much growth I would get. As a result I've found myself breaking apart rock to keep them apart.

I've got a purple Formosa that will lose a couple branches here soon as it's about to grow into a colony of valida.

I really admire those specific tanks that recreate the natural area from which they came.

But I prefer to cultivate a garden that I find interesting and colorful. So I put in there stuff that looks interesting.

[Regric25]

1349313494

This can be dangerous to your reef, especially with SPS corals. It all started off with 3 harmless thumbnail sized frags on top of my live rock shelf, and in 4 years this is what can happen.

I am not keeping SPS its just LPS and softies. To me that second pic looks cool! Maybe a little tall but still looks cool. I bet its even cooler from the top down.

[Troy Valentine]

http://www.maast.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7840&d=1273189460

It was a real pain to me due to the flow and light restriction it caused. I should have pruned along the way to prevent this from happening. I can only imagine what would happen if left unchecked for 10 years, you would be able to create your own live rock, and reef base rock.

[Regric25]

WOW! That is HUGE! You are right that is not a good idea. So what I am pretty much doing is not a good idea for all corals. So did you grow that from a small frag?

[350gt]

Lol that pic is crazy......

[BSJF]

I like some mature pieces so I have something to watch, but I love seeing a little tiny frag grow up. Sometimes I sell the larger colony later and keep a small frag rather than just selling the frag so I can watch it grow.

When we moved to Texas, I wanted to bring all the SPS I had grown out with me, but the colonies died (my fault entirely). Only my frags survived. I was sad then, but I got to watch them grow up all over again into even larger colonies.

And I'm with Ace about watching your own baby fishies grow up. That is funner than anything.

[rrasco]

Rrasco, exactly... Only I cringed when I saw that diver so close. Was that you?

No, not me. I don't dive. In fact, I'm terrified of the ocean and almost everything in it.

[rrasco]

And I'm with Ace about watching your own baby fishies grow up. That is funner than anything.

I like watching the fish I breed grow up, but when it comes to a FO show tank, I'm all about instant satisfaction. Of course, most of that is relative to cichlids and waiting for them to become awesome, if they ever do.

[KING]

WOW THIS IS A NICE THREAD WITH REAL GOOD FEED BACK..but 350gt is talking about me..1 of 100 that we fight about..ever day..lol.
but need 2 say should always have to sides..an with knowing the other side ,i don't see the point of asking on an other point..
im 28..single, live alone..not a family man like a lot of ya'll that r chilled out...not in 1 apt or house for more then a yr an a hf...so that being said i want the full colones..ya im new an dont no much, an didn't have the tank set up yrs..but who cares..a 1in frag dont cut it for me in a 135 gallon 6 foot long tank..sorry..an with all the info an advises..is good but there is so much an works for some ,an other will try new things..but does not mean the advises was not thank full for..

An ya i called his tank a rock tank an it was wrong but in my (( opinion )) what i call a reef thank will not be the same as what some 1 else calls it..an thats ok..not a big deal.. i think people get to touche on some things when the hole hobby is up for grabs..some people do it for the long term an some for the short..but who cares..some people say there not ready but that just how u feel..not say u have to be in this hobby for yrs an know so much about it to do so..
so i thank the ones that give advises to the short timers an dont care..but are happy to help any way they can.. dont want this to b a back a forth topic..but a.. if u guys were in my shoes would it matter..
ps 350gt has 1 of the nicest tanks iv ever seen an the reason y i started this hobby..an even with ur LRK.lol i still vote u tank of the month...

[allan]

There's nothing wrong with your approach, king. I think we are all pretty much saying the same thing, to each their own.

Ah, to be 28 and single. One of the reasons I don't drop to bills on a colony, or a frag, is 'cause the wife would tan my hide. :)

I always try to get small fish because I think they're cute, and I can have them longer before I have to give them away for a bigger tank.