The Frag Swap/ Expense of this hobby/ and the future of the hobby

[ZeroHour]

Looking at another post got me thinking about how expensive some things USED to be and how expensive some things still are. For things that grow super slow I can understand this but when it comes to Zoas, Shrooms, Duncans, etc I just dont get how some people want so much and some people pay so much for these things.

I may be off my rocker here but looking at the ebb and flow on this site I have seen many leave due to the prohibitive costs in this hobby. I understand its not all livestock but those of us that grow in our tanks know pretty well just how fast some of this stuff can and does grow.

Me personally i have a tank for my own entertainment. When my stuff grows out I usually hook people up for cheap, free, or trades.

I remember when lots of things were expensive....In reality IMO nothing in my tank will ever go for much more than 5$ a polyp or head. This excludes colonies etc that are huge...But heck I sold 15 duncans for 15$ this poast weekend. I think alot of the reason we lose members and people in the hobby is the prohibitive costs of cool items.

The Fragswap this weekend was an EXCELLENT example of hobbyists coming together and selling some great stuff for reasonable prices.


I challenge those of you that arent making this a business to follow suit. We would have a much bigger following and group if we all did this. I know many of you do already, but please someone explain to me how a zoa that grows like wildfire in many tanks can go for 50$ a polyp.

[Mr Cob]

I agree that if a coral grows fast there's little justification for off the wall prices. But...there are still many corals, Zoas included that are very slow growers or that are not very hardy for example Spidermans and Red Hornets...two that come to mind in our experience.

The "key" in my opinion to bringing prices down on many corals is farming...

For businesses...they have to profit and cost is normally determined by what the business pays for it and then add on normal markup for that store's business plan. That's part of the reason why I say farming is the key to bringing prices down.

I don't agree with forming an alliance of members to drive prices down. That runs us out of business as well as the LFS.

What then?

I also don't mind voicing my opinion even though I'm a sponsor. I know many sponsors will not because then they might lose business from those that oppose their opinion, but I'm a hobbyist first and always will be.

[Mr Cob]

Oh...and I bet I know what comment got your gears rolling; my comment on Teeb's Blue Tubbs about when they used to go for $50 per polyp.

Well fact of the matter is that they don't go for $50 per polyp anymore. Why....because they aren't as rare any longer and all they have going for them now is they are pretty and blue is one of the less common colors in coral. Not sure anyone sells them for $50/polyp anymore.

Anyways, I see your point just not sure I agree with your stand. Cheers.

[Europhyllia]

I think alot of the reason we lose members and people in the hobby is the prohibitive costs of cool items.


here's a few things I disagree with you about:

1) the assumption that 'cool' things have to be expensive. I almost feel like a little old fuddy duddy saying this but all this designer stuff leaves me cold and makes me feel like 'that's for the kids'. lol I don't give a hoot if something has a snazzy made up designer name. Carries no extra value for me. So if people feel like they have to buy a 'brand name' rather than an organism then I feel like it's their own fault for spending a lot of money. At the same time I also don't hold it against them. If it makes them happy then I don't have a problem with them buying 'designer' name stuff. It just reminds me a little bit of Farmville. You get all caught up in make belief stuff with make belief values. But if it's fun to you then plant your blueberry crops and hunt after those apocalypse gum drop zoas! :)
I have seen macro that intrigues me much more than most corals and I've stocked a huge tank with domestic rather than imported critters for a fraction of the cost. People just have to be a little more independent in what they do or think 'is cool' and not be so caught up in what other people think is cool right now. ;)

2) everybody should lower their prices. Why? Things can go well and stuff will grow like weed but sooner or later something catastrophic can/will happen and a lot of investment is lost. You got lucky when you bought the stuff from a tank from somebody who didn't want to deal with the problems that affected the corals anymore. It could have just as well turned out to be a mistake and taken your other stuff down with it. I am glad several months of no problems proved that in fact you were able to get them pest free but I would have been very hesitant to buy some frags off of you shortly after you had acquired them through the salvage sale. It's a gamble sometimes. Let the market determine the value IMO.

3) the reason people are leaving the hobby is because of cost. I think you could have a fabulous tank at very low cost as far as livestock cost goes. And once you have the set up the cost has already ocured
What I can see happening is this: you lose your job and use your tank as investment to turn it into money rather than have it sit in your living room. More one of those: 'hey what can I sell to get some cash' rather than 'it's too expensive to stock this tank' thing.

4) what is the real reason people give up tanks? I read somewhere that most people entering the hobby will leave it again in the first 2 years. It's always been that way. That's nothing new. I think the first 2 years can often be very frustrating. I mean tanks don't even seem to really start rockin' until they are a year old! The only time I really wanted to hang up the towel was when something catastrophic happened: major unexplained die offs, tank bursting and flooding the house, etc. Over the years there also have been plenty of times when I simply lost interest. I just hadn't found my passion yet, my niche. I was just blindly following the crowd not knowing what would be 'cool' to me. What would grab my interest and hold it. I just bought up random frags and spread them out. No plan. No vision. The last 18 months have been the funnest for me in over a decade of reefkeeping. This may sound corny but I feel like I finally found my vision.
It's so much easier to paint a picture when you already have it in your head -be it on canvas or in a reef tank. :) random scribbling seems much less effective.

(and as for forum participation: sometimes you guys just **** me off and I am sure it's the same vice versa. people can still have a tank and just want to gain a little distance from the forum. door's always open -to come back. :) I miss tebstan!)

[Mr Cob]

hahah "But if it's fun to you then plant your blueberry crops", that was flippin funny

[Europhyllia]

I could elaborate on this actually: I just saw your pixie dust polyps, Rob, and thought they were very pretty. I liked the recent picture of them and would consider buying them because they are pretty purple. And I've bought blue ones from Rob. So I am not boycotting 'designer' stuff. I just buy stuff that appeals to me visually rather than by name. :)
I also saw some 'patriotic' little zoa head in somebody's tank and was told the puny ugly little thing was $125! Haha. Now THAT is funny. But again it's their game and they can play it if they want to :)

[Big_Pun]

Not everyone has a tank that can grow everything, so saying it grows fast in your tank doesnt mean it will in someone elses tank. ive noticed in these tank tear downs they usually have a good amount of "glamour" corals in them and they are sold and priced as. more than likely they paid less for that coral months ago and it has since grown and priced them for more than paid for. also people lives and intrest change all the time, i used to have a couple really nice mustangs that i sank all my money into, then i got a motorcycle then i got a reef tank sold mustangs, sold bike and now this is my main hobby. a hobby is what it is, something to enjoy with expendable money and when money becomes tight things have to go.

[jroescher]

As long as there are people who will pay the price...

[ZeroHour]

Karin the stuff from the sick tank isnt really even my stance. I buy whatever I am not a designer buyer etc. I just sometimes cannot understand the insane prices on certain things. I didnt mean it to be a dig at anyone but reading my post does come across that way.

I guess I was just very impressed with the fragswap and the nice stuff that was out there for more than fair prices vs. the 100$ a head stuff I have seen.

Yes i got some stuff on the cheap. I also spent a fortune on dips and time making it safe. The only thing I offered up from that group soon after was the christmas zoa rock because it was living in a tupperware bin. I didnt offer anything else untill I knew things were clean and safe. Even still I have offered most anything up cheap. That is just my choice with my tank.

I am not saying its wrong to recoup some of your money as a hobbyist, but what I dont understand is people who sell stuff at business prices on a regular basis.

Mr. Cob etc I have no problem with you all and really no problem with anyone in particular. Just have been some observations I have made since moving here from Colorado. I read a lot more than I post. Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut instead lol

[ZeroHour]

Oh and the frags shortly after were not all stuff from that tank. I had 5 tanks running at the time that were not included with my main DT>


Now I have 1 soon to be 2 lol. I didnt have the pest stuff mixed with my main stuff at that time. Perhaps there was some confusion there and that I can understand.

[Europhyllia]

it was just an example actually. an example of how quickly good things can turn bad and your response icnluded some of my own reasoning: time, effort, expense with dips, etc.
Why should hobbyists not try and recoup that you know?

[Mr Cob]

hey man, just because we disagree on something doesn't mean we have a problem with one another. It's great to post....it keeps things alive around here but just know that not everyone is always going to agree on something. We can still talk reef and rap dude.

[Europhyllia]

hey man, just because we disagree on something doesn't mean we have a problem with one another. It's great to post....it keeps things alive around here but just know that not everyone is always going to agree on something. We can still talk reef and rap dude.

yes agree :)

[justahobby]

No worries ZeroHour, I would've been ousted a long time ago if maastards were banished for having a difference in opinion :-p Personally, I love a good debate lol.

I agree that cheaper prices on farmed coral would be great for the hobby. It would be tremendous if captive bred fish were cheaper than wildcaught specimens. But it also costs a lot to raise and feed larvae, and buy all the necessary equipment.

IMO the only people to be blamed for the designer coral craze are the buyers. As for recouping costs, I'm all for that. However, if I see a good sized colony that has grown out and then bought for the purpose of chopping it down for profit.... I don't buy them regardless of its price tag. That is demoralizing to the hobby.

[ZeroHour]

Good deal everyone i think I sort of got out what I meant with all this, but it still sounds much more attacking when written vs how it is in my head lol

[Regric25]

Good deal everyone i think I sort of got out what I meant with all this, but it still sounds much more attacking when written vs how it is in my head lol

I know what you mean man! When I want to draw something I have the perfect landscape in mind but when i put the pencil on paper it comes out all wacked out! LOL or when I try singing. My voice sounds good in my head but when I try and sing I sound like a moose in labor!

[stoneroller]

Some zoas may grow fast, some slow. Some are hardy in terms of fragging and others just don't take to the knife so well. IMO risk in losing the whole colony is a factor in pricing. Some things I am just not going to try and frag anymore...

[Texreefer]

I like pretty corals. they make me happy

[Teeb]

It's all in supply and demand. If I could have got $350 for my 7 polyps of Tubbs, I would have. People seem to forget that buyers control prices not sellers. One thing I've noticed is that people who seem to complain about the high prices are also the ones who are wanting the "LE" stuff. Those people have no credibility with me. If you want something that is considered high end, you're gonna pay no matter what it is. Can you get a Benz for the price of a Honda? (This is based off my experience on the national forums, not really here) There's a ton of cool coral out there that wasn't released by Steve Tyree or Jason Fox and just sold as plain old zoas that is just as nice as the named ones, people just seem to gravitate towards the expensive ones.


PS - If anyone wants Tubb's, I'd be happy to sell them for $25/polyp! :cool:

PPS - Chris, you're not allowed to take Duncan's to the next frag swap!

[Europhyllia]

It's all in supply and demand. People seem to forget that buyers control prices not sellers. There's a ton of cool coral out there that wasn't released by Steve Tyree or Jason Fox and just sold as plain old zoas that is just as nice as the named ones, people just seem to gravitate towards the expensive ones.


You are so smart! :)

[ZeroHour]

LOL did I tilt the market unintentionally on Duncans lol?

apparently 1$ a head was over the line lol.

As for LE stuff I never even knew that Tyree was some dudes name till now lol

I know some of the background but never paid attention to the names

[Teeb]

Lol...yeah you killed me with the duncans. :bigsmile: I wasn't referencing you in my little rant, just from what I've read on other boards. I've seen too many people that were looking for the latest and greatest designer coral, but then complaining that the price was high. I just don't get that.

[alton]

Finally a little excitement on this board. One of the corals that still gets a great price, not on here but at a lfs is blue/purple mushrooms. I don't understand it but I enjoy the price and trade ins for salt and food.
The following is a prime example of wow how much?

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=597+600+652&pcatid=652

But we stilll live in a free society where we can charge what we want for something, but it is up to the buyer to see if he will pay that amount for it.

[jroescher]

If I could actually sell Kenya Trees at that price, I could retire.

[Sherita]

I think it's all in what someone is willing to pay/not pay. The whole purple shroom thing just blows my mind, I spend a lot of time picking them out of my tanks. I am doing it totally wrong.

I don't normally go nuts over high end/le corals, but every once in a while I run across something that I simply must have. And if I play, I gotta pay.

That being said, when I sell stuff, I really do try to keep the price reasonable. The hobby should be fun for everyone, and it's not like our tanks don't eat our checkbooks anyway with maintenance and equipment replacement. And time.

I think there will always be affordable corals out there for the hobbyist, and there will always be expensive stuff for those who want to spend the money. We each just have to decide what we can/cannot do, and stick with it. Club frag swaps are always great for everyone, but even then you will occasionally run across someone who wants major bucks for their stuff at the swaps.......and a lot of times they will get it. But at the same time, you can find affordable goodies, at swaps, online, or that your friends have. We each just have to do what we can.

[ErikH]

Oh man, now you're gonna get me going! :)

http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?42817-1-10-dollar-per-polyp.-Zoas-For-Sale.&highlight=DOLLAR+ZOAS

http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?55866-200-Zoas-60.00-FINAL-PRICE&highlight=christmas+zoas

http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?55692-Gotta-Q-for-every1&highlight=christmas+zoas

It's great to share the wealth. What's funny is right now I have a lone digi in my 200g. We just put an offer on a house last night, so it looks like after all the work I put into my tank, I gotta break it all down again and move it. Jeesh.

[ErikH]

Oh and how are the rest of the corals doing Zero? I know you've put a lot of time and effort to dealing with them.

Sherita, your sig is hilarious.