What do you think? Need your opinion...

[Zephyr Aquatics]

Just want to know what you guys think....

Gentleman (maast member, don't want to mention his name, should he choose to post is his choice) buys a large Sailfin Tang around 5:30pm yesterday. Around 9:00 pm we get a call, the Tang has died. Surprising to all of us. Tang was a trade from a very good costumer, said he had him two years, is in our tanks for five days eating picking on other fish looking good. Gentleman continues to tell me that he hadn't even started acclimating. That he died in a bucket in our water. He came back from hes daughters game and he was dead.

Did this guy buy a fish in a rush, throw him in a bucket and leave him for three hours? What kind of bucket? Common five gallon bucket? We definitely did not give him enough water to sit in one of those for three hours. Does he have a cat? Is there anyone else who might have messed with him? All questioned left unanswered.

Gentleman is going to come on today expecting some sort of refund or store credit.

What do you guys think? Should we give it to him? Should we give partial credit? Should we tell him sorry you killed your fish?

Thanks for the feed back...

[allan]

Ouch, interesting question... and an interesting way to determin liability.

I am NOT weighing in on this for my position here as a MOD.

...But I would be very interested in knowing how much water was in the bucket, was a heater used to bring/keep it at temperature, an airstone to keep it aerated. Three hours seems like a loonng time to keep a fish in the acclimating process. Even at a steady drip I would imagine that the bucket would overflow at three hours... or within three hours if it didn't overflow I would imagine that not enough water was put into the bucket to keep the temperature comparable to the system's temp.

[LuckySingh]

it does sound strange....i think acclimation process even for three hours still cant kill a fish even if ur water in this role is playing foul.......or unless it's lethal for the fish to die right away....unless they went for a grocery shopping after picking up the fish and leaving him in their car to stress out and potientialy half dead before they got home......these r just the thoughts u never know actually what happen....u can ask for a water sample but if the person has a tank up and running it cannot be that lethal to kill the fish right away...
smetimes in business u got to make tough decision and i know where u comin from......it totally depends upon the store policy and liability but how soever it dnt mean that u kill a live stock and brng back for a refund without a legite reason......
just my thoughts:bighug:

[Mr Cob]

What's your store policy? Is it clear and visible to the customers?

Start there first and then do what you can based on your talk with the customer.

[Europhyllia]

I agree with Mr Cob.
Start at the store policy.
If it was my business (and I am looking at that from a business perspective not from a fish keeping perspective so the nitty gritty of type of water bucket, household pets, etc. doesn't even matter) this is what I would do:

- what is our store policy?

(like Mr Cob says it better be visible and clear - especially since you are in the live animal business and obviously this won't be the only fish to ever die. I think Polly's has theirs printed on the receipt)

- explain the policy and act accordingly (that means if you give a 3 day guarantee you don't bother investigating the case. You refund the fish. And tweak your policy to include instructions like: 'the animal must be acclimated within 1 hour of purchase using these guidlelines blah bla blah' for future cases

- If you don't have a store policy this will be a good opportunity to get one (good thing it wasn't a bunch of expensive fish so this is actually a good thing!)

- If you don't have a store policy then still refund or exchange the fish, consider it a learning fee that helped you establish your store policy. Lot's of good will come out of this event after all

- If you have a store policy and it clearly says: 'no warranties of any kind after the purchase leaves the store', then I would think that would be the only case when I'd say don't refund

[NateDogg]

the store policy is key. If you have one that is readily available to your customers, then I would stick to that. If you don't, then you don't owe this guy anything.

With that being said, it is one fish and refunding or exchanging his purchase would be Phenomenal customer service. You stand the chance of making a long term customer by making them happy and educating him on proper fish care. He does appear to have mistreated the fish.. but that is why this is a unique opportunity for you.

On a personal note, I don't ever buy a coral or fish if I can't afford to lose it. I would prefer to not have that happen. It is my way of accepting responsibility in the process and accepting the fact that stuff dies. It is the customers responsibility to ensure the animal's health before purchase.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[tebstan]

. . . Should we tell him sorry you killed your fish?


Certainly not. Though, I'm guessing you wouldn't actually phrase it that way in person. (So why do it on a public forum then...?)


Get used to playing 20 Questions. It's my favorite game in figuring out what went wrong.

Compare with your own experience, too. When fish are shipped to you, how long are they kept in small volumes of water? Is temperature really a factor this time of year? (That will vary house to house, day to day.)

Aside from all fishy issues, do you want this customer to come back?

[Gseclipse02]

what ever your poilicy is stick to it

some people will blame you for your fish dieing any chance they get there water temps can be 80+ degrees salt can be 1.034 and its still your fault in there eyes do a water test and go from there

maybe give them 2 fish at cost + shipping



plan better for the next time this happens and it will happen again


invest into a decent water test kit to make sure there water is good

[jroescher]

I'm guessing from your question there's not a clear cut and posted store policy.

Do you want to keep them as a customer?? Are they likely to come on here, or other public forum And start bashing you and the store?

Sounds like an opportunity for education.


---
I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.865620,-97.665281

[ErikH]

I think it's hard enough to own a LFS and stay afloat. Large online vendors like Live Aquaria can afford to offer the guarantee they offer due to their large volume of sales. I would say that you may want to offer some kind of money back for store credit, since you don't have a current policy posted.

[Bill S]

1) As noted, what is the store policy.

2) Sometimes, fish DO die in the bag/bucket. Even a long term captive fish.

3) Ask for a water sample (and test it). Doesn't matter if it died in the bucket - if you are replacing the fish, you need to test his water.

4) Replace the fish or give store credit - whichever he wants, and explain the store policy.

I spent 8 years in this business many, many years ago. If you don't refund/replace, you will never see this customer again. If you do this right, you'll have a good long term customer.

P.S. Print out and send acclimation instructions with each purchase - this way you can ask "did you follow our instructions?". You should be sending fish out in bags big enough for a few hours - if not, ask the customer when you bag the fish, how long they will be out.

[Europhyllia]

I have a couple more thoughts on this:

as a business owner - what's one sailfin tang in the grand scheme of things $$$ wise? Nothing. Somebody running around town telling all their friends they got a sick fish from you that died before they even got it in the tank ... priceless in a bad way. It comes down to 'Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?' You are probably right in that sitting for hours in too small of a water volume caused its death. But what will give the happier outcome for your business? Probably taking care of it regardless. And then creating a store policy you can live with.

as a customer - I am with NateDog there. I just lost a pretty expensive fish. Very sad. It never started eating. I even had to tell the phone support lady to stop calling me because talking about it just made me feel worse. The store I bought it from has some kind of warranty policy I think but I have never planned on going that route. When you buy livestock, stuff can happen. I don't hold the store responsible for it. Not sure what happened.
BUT: I think I would totally be offended if I did try and claim it and was interrogated or lectured as to why it was me who killed the fish. True or not... there's just a way to put things without making the customer feel like an idiot (even if we sometimes ARE idiots)

Like in this case I might phrase it like: "Tangs are adapted to live in highly oxygenated waters. The water volume we supply in the bags is sufficient to carry the fish home but it needs to be acclimated immediately as it is not sufficient to sustain the fish for prolonged periods or time."
And then I'd offer up another sailfin tang for this case.
I am lucky in that my business is online so when I get a customer complaint I have the luxury of walking away for a little bit, cool down and think about the most productive response.
I bet it's hard when you are face to face with somebody and need to come up with a response right then (and not show in your face that you really think: you idiot lol) So that brings the importance of that store policy back up. Get one. That way you have a starting point on how to respond when it happens again (and I am sure it will)

[350gt]

My opinion....

What kind of a dumb@$$ buys a fish to leave it in a bucket for 3 hours? When I buy a fish, I plan it and make sure I am rushing home to acclimate it.

Either way, GL on the outcome. I personally wouldn't give any kind of credit, then your going to have ppl thinking every time a fish dies you owe them something.... If that was the case most of the shops I have been to would be in debt with me..... Lol

[350gt]

If you rep is good enough with your loyal customers, who cares about one guy running around moving there mouth? The previous owner had a lot of that and still had a loyal group........

[350gt]

But if your unlike me. I guess u can offer a credit this one time...... And make a stricter policy for the next time..

[Zephyr Aquatics]

thank you europhyllia... and thank every one else for there opinion... thats exacly why i posted this thread... just needed a second opinion... or 11 second opinions.... time to go open the store.... see some of you guys there thanks.... no really thanks

[theedprado]

I never used to give refunds on live stock. All stock was sold as is where is. It was always the responsability of the purchaser to inspect the item. I of course would never sell a fish that I knew was sick. I would however usually allow the customer to purchase a like item at a discount of 25-50%. This way the customer gets a deal on another fish, and the store is not out any money. If the customer did not agree I would politley ask them to go pay twice as much for the same fish at another store.

[ErikH]

caveat emptor

[georgeortiz]

I think this thread is totally unprofessional. I am the customer in question. I have been running this tank in particular for a while. I have been in the hobby a while and have been a MAAST web member and prior a charter member. I just didn't feel there was much benefit in being a charter anymore. That is a side topic,

Imagine my surprise to see this thread started by the store proprietor.

I told this guys wife I was dropping off the fish and would acclimate it when I got back from my kids practice that started at six. I even asked first if I could set it aside because of the circumstance but, having done the same before I changed my mind. The practice is an hour and located right near my house. So if they would have listened and concerned they could have said don't worry we can hold it. As to the question of storing the fish I opened a bag and placed it in the bag open top in a small container since it was not enough water for my larger bucket.
My paramerers are normal. AGAIN I HAVE BEEN IN THE HOBBY A WHILE.

I am headed to the store right now and if I get any flack about this occurence you can BET THAT I WILL NOT RECCOMEND THIS LFS to anyone!!!!!!!!! Cheap prices don't mean a quality store. Ever heard of customer service? WOW I have never read a thread like this from any other vendor.

[Big_Pun]

IN MY PERSONAL OPINION: you can't blame a store for your actions. once the fish is your hands it's your responsibility to take proper precaution so the fish does not parish. we all take chances buying livestock for our tanks, just how the hobby goes

[SinisterLou]

It sounds like the customer is at fault here and doesn't want to take a loss at his expense. He should have picked it up later at the store instead of stress a fish out like that.

[justahobby]

For the sake of the community I think we should leave it alone now. No reason pointing fingers when it didn't happen to any of us. It looks like they are both willing to work to a resolution and I wish them the best.

[ReefCube]

I think everyone knows with coral and fish its a gamble. Period. Many stores dont get their money back when they die from shipping they just cross their fingers. I know I always try to do things to protect my purchase such as make sure the fish is eating before i buy or I will make sure the coral has opened up. simple things like that can help so you dont run into a problem. I cant even tell you how much money i have lost in dead fish and coral. I know that ed is a more than fair guy and he has the best prices in town and best customer service but sometimes you get a customer that just does not understand the name of the game. Just my opinion.

[tebstan]

Is ed still the owner? I thought it was under new ownership. If so, and the new owners are new to the industry, they may not have experience to fall back on. More familiarity with particular vendors, species, and even customers helps make decisions on a case-by-case basis. Posing the question in the first place implies there isn't a set policy established. Every experience will help a new policy evolve. There's nothing wrong with chalking something up to a learning experience, on both sides. Teachable moments are valuable.

[ShAgMaN]

Personally, I understand both sides. But it's hard to believe the buyer has been in the hobby long not to understand and accept the risk.

Most who have been in this hobby long enough could determine the root cause of death (or at least narrow it down) – and apparently the buyer feels you’re at fault. From reading the chain of events and knowing you (to some extent) I would disagree that you’re at fault...but at this point does it really matter?

That said, it's probably not a good idea to post this publically as a business owner, but it's obvious you’re trying to do the right thing.

My advice, refund the buyer and apologize for posting this publically, then make the policy of no refunds on livestock.

There’s no way you can run a saltwater fish business and guarantee the fish will survive without knowing the buyer personally (including experience and integrity)....for any period of time. There are too many risks, and opportunities for error.

I hope both of you work things out and learn from this.

[Texreefer]

Very well said Terry

[profntbtr]

i have to say that three hours in a bucket should not affect a fish that gravely. i have been employed in that industry, and fish are shipped in half a gallon of water and remain in that same water for 18-24 hours sometime, before arrival at your LFS. additionally, i have carried fish with me for a full day from 8am, when i left, to 3pm, when i arrived at the fish's final home, with no ill effects. that being said, it's up to you, whatever you do. i personally agree with terry, replace the fish, give him his money back, or give him store credit. just let this serve as a lesson, and put policies in place to protect yourself, and more importantly your sanity. most of all, don't air your complaints where they are likely to be discovered by the other party.

[ErikH]

Is ed still the owner? I thought it was under new ownership. If so, and the new owners are new to the industry, they may not have experience to fall back on. More familiarity with particular vendors, species, and even customers helps make decisions on a case-by-case basis. Posing the question in the first place implies there isn't a set policy established. Every experience will help a new policy evolve. There's nothing wrong with chalking something up to a learning experience, on both sides. Teachable moments are valuable.

Amen.

[ErikH]

Very well said Terry

+1

[alton]

I don't think the owner posted this with bad intentions. If there is a fish store in in SA that has a money back guarantee on SW fish let me know because I do not know of any? Simple fix either give the profit you made from selling this fish to George or order him one and he can pay wholesale for it. And Definitely post a sign of your guarantee policy in your store.

And it probably be a good idea for a mod to remove this post from MAAST

[zerreissen]

I think this thread is totally unprofessional. I am the customer in question.


I think your response is much more unprofessional than the thread in the first place. These are new store owners asking for simple advice, no need to get heated. Just because you have been in the hobby for a number of years does not mean that you can make the assumption that you are not going to have a casualty here or there.

Responsibility is usually left in the owner's hands for saltwater aquaria once out the door, given the number of parameters that can go wrong... It's up to us as the consumer to inspect the livestock before purchase to help ensure success.

I personally have never had an issue with Phenomenal Aquatics (I have been going there for years) and I have been in a few times with the new owners as well. Whatever their decision in this situation, I will still continue to visit for as long as I have a saltwater tank (assuming that they're still open).

[justahobby]

This thread ran its course and is now closed.