Its setup, now I have questions

[rrasco]

After getting all the recommendations on buying dry rock. I bought live rock. Yep, that's how it works, right? I didn't want to order it and couldn't find any locally, so I got some cheap live rock. I was feeling risky.

I now have sand, rocks, and water in the tank and am going to let it cycle while getting all the parameters in check. I have a few questions already though. The first one is my rock stacking. I stacked the rock all the way up the back as to attempt to hide the back of the tank, but began questioning whether this was smart due to 1) coral placement, and 2) the possibility of a shrimp, or something else walking out of the tank. Picture below. Basically I'm asking, are the rocks stacked so that coral will not achieve optimal light or room to grow? Observations as such are welcome.

Next, it appears as since I have bought live rock, I have a few friends that came along for the ride. They may be bad, but being my first salt water experience, I have no clue. I am excited none the less. The first and most obvious was a small, starfish?, on the glass. That's what it looks like to me, but I don't know much about sw biotypes yet. The next is what resembles a small zoa-shaped something. It's small, brown, and has the shape of a zoa. Once again, only guessing. And last but certainly not least, is what appears to be at least 2 other unknown creatures. I'm thinking they are starfish as well, or something with tentacles. I can see them poking out of at least 2 crevices and have seen more than 1 tentacle in each hole. Last picture, black and white stripes.

Any advice is surely welcome. I'd rather learn now than after it's too late.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0590_sm.jpg
http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0589_sm.jpg
http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0581_sm.jpg
http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0585_sm.jpg

[Europhyllia]

the wall of death look is still very popular amongst reef aquarists so it obviously works reasonably well. The critters like Nerites that want to walk out will walk out regardless of your rock wall. Shrimps don't seem to have a desire to leave.
The rock wall will cut down on light available in the tank but then so will painting the back of your tank or foaming it so is it ideal? No. Do people do it and live with it? Yes all the times.

The white asterina starfish may quickly reproduce. Jury is out on this one but most people struggle to get rid of them

[rrasco]

LOL, wall of death. That doesn't sound too promising. The more I look at it, the more I want to move the top pieces down to give me more room for corals that get light.

So was that an instruction to demolish the asterina? I'll nuke him if that's what is recommended.

[tebstan]

Rock structure? Personal preference.

I went for the giant mountain look. :D I changed it over time to make large caves for swimming room and shadow areas for critters that want it. But I like my giant mountain. As things grow, I'll adjust as needed. It's always a work in progress. (Just don't mess with base rock if you can help it.)

[Scream311]

Im in that boat of GET RID OF THAT STAR FISH !

[tebstan]

Third pic/description sounds like baby brittle stars

[tebstan]

Aww poor little asterinas, everyone hates them. I always like their odd shapes. They can get out of control sometimes. Some of the nuisance stuff can be so darn cute.

[rrasco]

Haha, ok, asterina gone.

And they definitely look like brittle stars to me, just didn't want to jump to conclusions.

[Troy Valentine]

Congrats on the new setup:) My first system was very similar to yours, external filter and all. Are you planning on using a protein skimmer? If not you can open those filter bags and add a lot more carbon to filter the water better. It will also save you some money on filter bags.

[rrasco]

That's actually a temporary filter, I have a new canister coming in for this tank. I just had that emp 400 laying around so I decided to use it. I was going to try without a protein skimmer, but if I did get one, it would probably be a HOB since I don't want to sump this tank. I'm adamantly against the use of carbon.

[Troy Valentine]

I'm curious, why are you against using carbon? What media do you plan on using in the canister filter? There are some terrific HOB skimmers, I wish we had the options back when I started. I had a Lees airstone skimmer, and that was cool at the time.

[rrasco]

I may be naive saying that on a saltwater forum, but from my freshwater experience, it's simply not needed unless you're trying to remove excess medication from the water. When I buy a filter and it has carbon, I use it, so maybe I was quick to say I'm against using it, because I'm not per say against it's use, just its sustained use. I refuse to buy it. Carbon is ridiculously expensive for what you get and without the ability to reuse it I won't do it.

[Mike]

My only worry about your rocks stacked to the top on the back is if you do not have enough room for water flow in the back it can lead to problems of stagnent areas, which can lead to cyano and other issues with detritus and stuff collecting there. The more rock you have the better it helps filter your water. We have always been partial to structures in the middle of the tank, so fish and water can move around both sides of the rocks, with gaps and caves so they can swim through in places.

We have had asterina stars in the big tank for years and do not actively try to weed them out. If they are caught while changing the socks or filter medium, we toss them.

The polyps look like zoas. They may or may not survive your ammonia cycle, but corals can sometimes be pretty hardy. I can remember our excitement with our first tank and getting a polyp on one of the rocks we bought. It turned out to be an aptasia, which is not good. :)

Welcome to MAAST. Good group of people on here with a lot of knowledge. Feel free to ask for help if you need it.

[rrasco]

Thanks Mike. Was nice meeting you yesterday.

I rearranged a bit, mainly for maximum exposure to the light. I've been paying attention to water currents, with the emperor 400 on full blast and two 400gph sources of current, I'm fairly confident water flow behind the rocks is adequate. Worst case, I guess I can always move it around more. Not sure I could do the center formation rock stack with this size tank and amount of rocks.

Found another asterina, a bigger one. Eradicated.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0595_sm.jpg

[Troy Valentine]

Carbon is ridiculously expensive for what you get and without the ability to reuse it I won't do it.

You got that right! I wish there was a quality reusable carbon. If anyone knows of one please let me know. However, in regards to its use I think a time will come in all systems where it will be a necessity to strip the water of organic and some inorganic pollutants, and make you water crystal clear at the same time. This will also inprove photosynthetic life, as the light will penetrate much better. Even to the point of bleaching some corals, because of the increase in par. So beware if you wait a while before adding carbon, you might want to acclimate your corals to the new about of light. It is astonishing the amout of life your tank will have, and all that life will produce some form of waist.

[Troy Valentine]

IMHO, I try to think of all things in my system as assets and liabilities. Forinstance, algae,xenia, and a healthy sandbed are all assets. While fish, liverock, and most corals are liabilities. These creatures add to the bioload of the system, and the assets export it. Carbon and skimming can be a very efficient form of export when the system is aged and liabilites way out number the assets.

[rrasco]

From my understanding, the bioload only produces waste in the form of ammonia, which is converted into nitrates by nitrifying bacteria which is then consumed by plant life or exported via water changes. Carbon offers chemical filtration, which is a separate process than the ammonia-nitrogen cycle. What chemicals are there to remove that are detrimental to reef life?

[Troy Valentine]

Good question.

Organic matter is made up of complex metabolic proteins, fats, and other compounds that are in excess in our systems. Carbon has the ability to remove this before it is slowly broken down into the nitrogen cycle. Our systems are in a constant state of flux. Life and death, food and waste. Its organic. Just like detritus in the sand bed, and even smaller particulates in the water column that havent been desolved. Carbon has the ability to remove this from the water very efficiently when needed.

Chemicals in your house will find there way into your system, if its on your hands or a deodorizer you spray in the other room, or dust thats in the air. All of these thing will find there way into your system. Carbon can also aid in the removal of these thing. but its mainly used for excess organic waste that is in abundance in your system.

[rrasco]

Thanks. I just read something pretty similar to that. If I were, however, to use chemical filtration to remove excess organics I would probably try purigen, as it can be recharged with bleach, unlike carbon. It is something I have considered in some of my cichlid tanks, but never took the plunge.

[kkiel02]

pic 1 asterina starfish- I have them in my tank and they havent hurt anything.
pic 2 is probably a zoa but is hard to tell being so small. Search Majona and Apaistia(sp?) just to be certain it isnt those. If it is kill it quick.
pic 3 mini brittle leg- Very good

WOW didnt see the second page. Im way behind. lol

[Troy Valentine]

I would probably try purigen, as it can be recharged with bleach.
Bleach.... How long must you let it sit before it can be used without being toxic to your system? or do you rinse/soak it with RODI water? I'm interested:)

[rrasco]

The beauty of bleach is it oxidizes quickly, so it is a good agent for killing/cleaning things because it naturally goes away when left to air out. The FDA actually approves the use of bleach to clean fruit, so long as you let it dry for a day or two before eating it. No bleach smell = no bleach. You could rinse with RODI water if it gives you peace of mind.

[kkiel02]

On the carbon subject- I was reading recently that Carbon has been linked directly with HLLE so I keep some on hand but dont actively use it in my system. If something does get out of whack in my tank I quickly throw it in my reactor though. So I guess I would just use it with caution. I will try and dig up that study as it was very informative.

Here ya go: http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found

[Europhyllia]

I got Purigen in my systems as well. Lots of seahorse keepers use Purigen.

The thing about water changes eliminating nitrates... I don't think our 10% water change really makes a big enough dent into it. Macro algae does a good job though.
And stuff like Purigen. ;)

[Troy Valentine]

On the carbon subject- I was reading recently that Carbon has been linked directly with HLLE so I keep some on hand but dont actively use it in my system. If something does get out of whack in my tank I quickly throw it in my reactor though. So I guess I would just use it with caution. I will try and dig up that study as it was very informative.

I've read that study a number of times over the years. In fact Corydude and I were just discussing it the other night. I think there are far too many variables to link it to carbon use. Organic rich systems can cause more stress on the environment-People use carbon to remove excess organic matter to improve the system- HLLE can be caused from unhealthy systems. Therefore carbon causes HLLE.

[Troy Valentine]

Purigen it is... I will buy it once I am done with my 2lb container. That will tank a month or so. $25.99 ouch... Goodbye carbon:)

[CoryDude]

Troy you will love using purigen. I've used it in my 60 gallon. I like it because you can tell it's absorbing the bio-waste as it turns a rusty red color over time. I never saw a dramatic drop in no3 levels, but between it and some cheato, I've run that tank without a skimmer for almost a year now.

IMHO, it's not a bad thing to run carbon every once in a while. We pay lots of money for our livestock, salt, equipment, etc, so I don't see paying $33 for a gallon of carbon as a big expense. I just toss a little bag of it in the tank every month. I usually go through a gallon over the course of a year. Like Troy said, I mainly use the carbon to suck up impurities that are introduced by putting my hands in the tank and whatever comes through the air.

[Europhyllia]

I've read that study a number of times over the years. In fact Corydude and I were just discussing it the other night. I think there are far too many variables to link it to carbon use. Organic rich systems can cause more stress on the environment-People use carbon to remove excess organic matter to improve the system- HLLE can be caused from unhealthy systems. Therefore carbon causes HLLE.
Okay but in the latest trial (findings were only published and completed this spring) the different tanks were all maintained by the same people in the same environment. Not just reports from various aquarists with various set ups.
I am not saying it's a 100% for sure thing. But considering I can have better stuff that doesn't have this somewhat unknown risk factor attached to it why bother?

[Troy Valentine]

Agreed..... If purigen allows you to not use carbon, or to use carbon far less. Sound like a win win for me. "Game on" Garth Algar ;)

[stoneroller]

After the purigen turns brown, recharge it with diluted bleach until WHITE -- may take a couple of days IME. Then, soak it in RO with a little Prime for a couple of days.

RRasco, you'll find that rock work never ends. Once you start putting in corals and they start growing you'll find the need to move it around. What kind of corals are you planning on keeping?

[kkiel02]

I also have the purigen and ran it in my reactor as well. It turned brown but I have yet to recharge it as my reactor is sitting in my garage atm. :)

[rrasco]

RRasco, you'll find that rock work never ends. Once you start putting in corals and they start growing you'll find the need to move it around. What kind of corals are you planning on keeping?

I was assuming it would be hard to stack rocks when most of them are covered in coral, so I was trying to get at least a good start on the rock config from the get go.

I'm not really sure, I guess it depends on what types of coral I can keep based on lighting, coral compatibility, etc. I'm all ears for recommendations. So far I've been advised things such as kenya trees, mushrooms, gsp. One thing I was really interested in was a clown and anemone or frogspawn. I guess I may be limited by that choice as well.

[ErikH]

If it's a brown zoa, it's Texas Trash. Take the rock out and let it sit in the sun for a day. Otherwise, slowly over time, they will outcompete and outgrow everything nice that you buy for your tank. The rocks that I took out of my 200g are totally covered in them. They are terrible.

[tebstan]

Lots of zoas can be brown, they can change under different light. One little zoa isn't going to be a problem right away, let it hang out until you can see if it has a cool color or pattern. It might not be a trash paly at all. My texas trash palys turned a blue/green. Pretty.

They got a bad reputation, but like any fast grower it's all a matter of what you like and what you put effort toward. They're only as bad as xenia and gsp and kenya trees.

I keep them on a small rock island to prevent spreading, just like my xenia and gsp. If they start to look like a polyp is reaching or going to drop off to grow past the rock island, I snip it off and put it in the fuge. (They turn white, but don't die!)

[FireWater]

I am way behind on this one. What lighting are you running? Coral you can keep will depend on the lighting. I have a 30g with 4 t5's over it and grow what ever I want in the tank.

As for the rock it all preference, but like others mentioned you might run into a problem with flow and "dead areas" with a stack all the way to the wall. If you can get a small power head behind the rock structure to add flow back there that would be ideal.

[rrasco]

4x24w T5HO, (2) actinic, (2) 10,000K.

Once I get my canister in, the intake and return will be positioned behind the rocks, should draw some flow. There is actually quite a bit of space back there as is, I was trying to give them caves to make home.

[ErikH]

The only reason I say to remove it now is because if it spreads, you would be in trouble. I have about ten thousand of those palys. If you want to keep pretty zoas and palys, it's best to get rid of the ugly ones before they spread. Once they spread, it will be too late.

[tebstan]

But how can you assume it's a trash paly? It's got a short skirt and a different colored center. It could be a lunar eclipse for all we can tell from that pic.

The rock/tank is brand new. I zoa hitch hiker is exciting. Watch it for a while, see what it turns into. There isn't a whole lot going on in new tanks, it's something to enjoy in the early stages. No need to be so quick to destroy one of the only signs of life.

[phippsj]

I did a foam rock wall across the entire back of my 180G (my build thread is here: http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?50956-180G-Tank-Build-with-Rock-Foam-Wall/page2). I then built some small mountain ridges to meet up with the wall. I have found that it has the benefit of leaving a lot of the sandbed open which has a lot of advantages... I have a deep sand bed which can help some with filtration, but it has also let me keep the types of critters that I really like (juvenile twin spot wrasse, jaw fish, etc). Other than that, I think rock structures really rely on personal preference. My back wall goes all the way out of the water, no issues with stuff crawling out. You will have issues with stuff hiding behind it though.

The asterina star may not even survive the cycling process, but I bought local live rock like you did and had the same two tag alongs and they all survived on mine. That small brown polyp that you describe sounds a lot liek the small brown ones that I had. Turns out they were Texas Trash, and I wish so badly that I had gotten rid of them. I can handle the asterinas, they have not exploded in my tank. The texas trash, however, try to overgrow all my nice zoas and are a major pain to get rid of!

[rrasco]

The tank has been setup since Saturday, July 9th. It is currently cycling. Over the last 24 hours I had an algae bloom. Checked parameters, ammonia is at .5 ppm, nitrates are about 10 ppm, and pH I believe is at 8.3, hard to tell the color. Is this a normal bloom? I know most freshwater cycles cause algae blooms, at least if I recall correctly they do.

The interesting thing is where the algae has grown, there are air bubbles covering the live rock in that area. My guess is the air is coming from the rock, or the algae is producing oxygen like in planted tanks, or something that I have no clue about.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0609_sm.jpg

[Bill S]

Yup. Normal. Patience, grasshopper... bad, bad things happen in this hobby to those who rush.

[rrasco]

I know how this works, I'm not doing anything but observing and questioning. I may be new to salt, but I am certainly not new to fish.

[Bill S]

I know how this works, I'm not doing anything but observing and questioning. I may be new to salt, but I am certainly not new to fish.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across condescending - it's just that so many folks who are new to SW try and jump in too quickly. As well, others who are entering the hobby come in and read these threads. Your tank is progressing typically.

[Regric25]

The tank has been setup since Saturday, July 9th. It is currently cycling. Over the last 24 hours I had an algae bloom. Checked parameters, ammonia is at .5 ppm, nitrates are about 10 ppm, and pH I believe is at 8.3, hard to tell the color. Is this a normal bloom? I know most freshwater cycles cause algae blooms, at least if I recall correctly they do.

The interesting thing is where the algae has grown, there are air bubbles covering the live rock in that area. My guess is the air is coming from the rock, or the algae is producing oxygen like in planted tanks, or something that I have no clue about.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0609_sm.jpg

Yup its diatom algae and its perfectly normal for it to happen. Its gonna get worse then all of a sudden one day it will all go away. The diatom algae is producing oxygen so you are seeing pearling like in planted tanks.

You will get this stuff all over your rock and sand. Dont wipe the rocks off or disturb the sand bed while the bloom in is progress. Just let it do its thing and it will go away on its own at the end of the cycle. Basically its consuming the nutrients in your tank so when the cycle is done and there are no more nutrients to consume they will die off and your tank should be ready to go. Just keep up with the parameter checks and when everything reads 0 constantly you should be good to go. I would say this is a text book new tank cycle.

As far as teh aquascape goes like mentionied earlier you are never done with rock work until you are done adding corals to your tank LOL. Personally I did a 2 island aquascape with shelves caves and it was stacked pretty high. I did it this way for the fish and also knowing that I wanted to have a mixed reef with SPS, softies, LPS. Just make sure its stacked stable and on the bottom of the tank. You have some really nice pieces of rock to work with check out other pics of other tanks to get an idea if what you want to do. Check out the links in my signature area for pics and video of my old tank.

Good luck and I can't wait to see what you do with it.

[rrasco]

Sorry, didn't mean to come across condescending - it's just that so many folks who are new to SW try and jump in too quickly. As well, others who are entering the hobby come in and read these threads. Your tank is progressing typically.

No sweat. I know how it is. It's hard waiting, but I know the importance of establishing a healthy colony of nitrifying bacteria before doing anything. To be honest, I'm already worried about those little brittle stars and the ammonia levels during the cycle. Thanks!


Good luck and I can't wait to see what you do with it.

I figure it will be a never ending battle with the rocks. I rearranged them three times before the weekend was over. I think I've settled on this until I see what will be best for the corals. Lots of good flow all the way around the rocks now.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0616_sm.jpg

[Regric25]

Hey that looks great! I had 1 rule for rockwascaping my tank and that is; I had to be able to get ALL the way around my glass with a magfloat. If not then I would end up with an area that I could not clean that always had algae and crud between the glass and rock. Looks great though!

[rrasco]

As the algae continues to bloom and I wait...looks like I have another hitchhiker. I tried to ID it myself, but I have no idea. And those tentacles were definitely brittle stars. I have at least two of them.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0631_crop.jpg
http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0633_sm.jpg

[FireWater]

1st picture middle? Looks like a bristle or fire worm to me. Was that the hitchhiker you were asking about?

[rrasco]

Yeah, first picture in the middle. I updated the picture to one that is zoomed in. Second picture of of the brittle star. What I was trying to ID certainly looks like a bristle worm.

[FireWater]

Yep, now that you zoomed it in you can really see it. Lots of cool things to look at and you will find new stuff all the time. One of the best parts of the hobby for me. Once you get used to your tank and what's in it during the day try looking at it with a flash light at night. When I started my first tank my wife thought I had went crazy because I would get up at night just to go check it out what new things I could find and then she started staring at the tank with me.

[rrasco]

They're not bad are they?

[FireWater]

I have not had any issues with them before other than they irritate your skin when you touch them. They can have a place in the aquarium as part of your clean up crew. I don't see any problem with them unless you have a huge population of them as they can irritate corals as they crawl to feed. Some wrasses and other fish prey on the smaller ones - not sure what your fish plans are for the tank though.

[rrasco]

Thanks.

The only planned fish at this moment is a percula or ocellaris.

[FireWater]

You can search around on the web for more info on the bristle worms. everyone has a different opinion on them. If you start seeing a bunch of them it means they have plenty to feed on which could mean you are feeding the tank too much. If they start getting large in size or too abundant then you can pull them out with tweezers or suck them out during water changes to help keep the population in check.

[rrasco]

Tank is now on day 14 of cycle. Lots of cool growth on the rocks. Most of the diatom algae has gone away and I'm getting lots of green bushy algae. It looks pretty cool in my opinion. I also have small white polyps all over the place, they have little fingers...feather dusters maybe? There is one in the last picture, although they are being blown all around by my powerheads.

I checked ammonia yesterday, and I can't really tell what it says, but I think the levels are below .25ppm at this point. It wasn't quite yellow, but barely green. Last time I checked nitrates, about a week ago, they were around 10ppm.

http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0666_sm.jpg
http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0664_sm.jpg
http://www.rrasco.com/AquaticPics/29reef/IMG_0668_sm.jpg

[Europhyllia]

bryopsis and bubble algae? very popular!

just kidding lol

that's just the risk you run with liverock. Plus you could always import it later with coral. It happens...

[kkiel02]

I hope it isnt bryopsis. Emerald crabs will take care of that bubble algae.

[rrasco]

It looks more like hair algae to me. The pictures of bryopsis I have seen look more like wheat. This doesn't look like that, it's like green hair growing on the rock. That bubble algae has been freaking me out though, I've never seen anything like it.

I'm also waiting for the ammonia to go away before I put anything in the tank.

[Troy Valentine]

Your system is aging normally. Algae spores will find their way into your system over time, Its unavoidable. It is part of a healthy ecosystem. I find its easier to embrace it, rather than overreact when they enter your system. I admit they can be incredibly frustrating at times. But usually with alittle patients they will cycle through your system on their own. Just stay diligent with your system maintenance, and your system will blossom beautifully. Also just because your system has a lot of algae, it doesn't mean the system is unhealthy. My corals seem to be happiest when my system is nutrient rich with plenty of algae. IMHO this is the key to long term success with a reef.

[Mike]

Just be careful with the hair and bubble algae as they can be invasive if left unchecked. A little like you have on your rocks currently doesnt look too bad, but when it is overgrowing your corals it can be a pain. Several critters eat it and can help you keep it in check. Once done cycling, adding some clean up crew, including turbo snails and emerald crabs can help. You will have to make up your own mind on hermits.

Some people are pro-hermit and some not. If you have hermits and snails, it is not uncommon to see a hermit kill your snail to take its shell. It sucks though when they decide they dont like it and go back to their old shell. We only have hermits in the FOWLR as I wanted some sort of clean up crew in there, although surprisingly enough I do have a couple of big turbo snails that have learned to survive and adapt to the predators. The triggers, puffer, and wrasse will slowly catch and kill both the hermits and the snails. Circle of life. I do have a very large red leg hermit that no one messes with... sometimes it pays to be the biggest kid on the block. :)