Tank is crashing!

[Sherita]

My 72g is in the process of crashing. Short story, I got a new bucket of salt, did water change 2 days ago, matching salinity, temp, ph, alk. Right after the change, everything got really mad. Checked all of my tank parameters, and picked up a high ammonia level (something this tank has NEVER had). Nothing had died, and nothing was missing, so I was clueless. I don't have a large bioload on this tank....on small purple tang, one small kole tang, one scooter blenny. Well, I decided that a large water change was in order, but this time, before using the water, I tested it for ammonia. Test kit showed 4.0 on the new saltwater (had been mixed for 24 hours). I verified with another, new, test kit.

I put that bucket of salt aside and have started mixing another batch of saltwater from a different bucket (not same brand). I am running carbon in two reactors, have dosed prime, and have polyfilter in the sump to catch what it can.

I have already lost my huge pink pearl bubble coral, rose hammer, green wall hammer, frogspawn, two gorgonians and my beautiful pink fromia star. I can't find my urchin now, and I am afraid he has died (saw him earlier, maybe he is just in the rocks) Am in the process of losing my hot pink chalice (huge) and my duncans. Managed to relocate the showpiece fox coral to another tank, he's looking better.

Can anyone think of anything else that I could be doing right now? I am just sick about this. Who would have ever thought I would shed tears over one of my tanks?

[Big_Pun]

dang that bites sherita wish I was closer to help you out. sounds like you got things covered. I can't believe a salt would do this, just to be sure is your ammonia test within expiration date. also what brand salt was the new one.

[LuckySingh]

Sorry to hear that Sherita....strange and not really sure if it's salt...u dnt get that high ammonia right away untill the entire biological balance has been disturbed or unless it is the salt...tell us more about ur filteration.....water change with different salt definitely recommended if indeed u doubt th salt...I would definatley put my corals in quanterine tank try to set things right 1st...

[tebstan]

Sorry to hear :( I've cried over less when it comes to my tank.

Where do you mix your water? Any pets, or small children, have access to it?

[hobogato]

I think it will be a waiting game for you now. just keep doing your water changes and changing out your filter media. was the contaminated salt still sealed? maybe something got spilled into it or one of your water mixing containers?

[Sherita]

Ok, going to try to cover everyone's questions in one post.

As far as water, I use an ro/di. TDS is 0. Water is mixed in a covered trash can in my utility room. No small children here, only very large dogs, and they have no access to utility room. Salt is stored in sealed buckets right next to the water mixing trash can. Buckets are always sealed, since salt attracts moisture.

Normal filtration on this tank is a 12g fuge with chaeto, skimmer and carbon reactor. I have changed out the carbon, and added a second reactor to help out. Live rock in this tank is around 150lbs, dsb (has NOT been disturbed)

I didn't trust the first test (I mean really, who would believe that?), but I retested with a brand new test kit that is well within is expiration date, with the same result. BTW, the water I am mixing now with the different brand.......0 ammonia, none at all.

The new bucket of salt is Reef Crystals, the old bucket is Coralife. Something I noticed........the Coralife bucket has no odor to it, the Reef Crystals has some kind of odor.......hard to describe. I think the best description is french fries. Don't you laugh at me :) I thought the difference in the smell was just because it was a different brand. I have contacted the manufacturer, and I will post on here what their response is, since I don't want to blacken their name if they are interested in finding out what has happened.

Almost ready to do a water change. I usually mix much longer than this, but right now I have to take a chance, because to do nothing will guarantee the death of my tank. And I don't have enough room to move everything out :(

[Europhyllia]

Wow. That's terrible. You're up north aren't you?
I cycled a tank with ammonium chloride and got life bacteria from Fritz in Dallas (had it overnighted to me but maybe you are close enough to just pick some up). The Fritz bacteria managed to bring a 4.0 ammonium level down to 0 in just 36 hours.

That is so weird! I've never heard anything like it! Ammonium in saltwater mix...

[tebstan]

I'm going to go smell my salt!
I've noticed a smell too, but couldn't ID it.


Hope everything improves quickly.

[Sherita]

Tebstan, let me know if your salt smells like french fries, if you would.

Europhyllia, I am north of you, but far west of Dallas. I will call Fritz in the morning and get some life bacteria headed my way.

As soon as this water change is done, I am going to set up for another one in the morning. I don't know what else to do.

[tebstan]

Ive never been able to identify the smell before... still not sure if I would say french fries. Maybe the old grease the fries were cooked in? It has a definite grease/flour smell though.

I buy it by the box (cheaper per gallon than the bucket, fyi) and pour it into a bucket with a zipper lid. The zipper lid has a tighter seal than the average bucket. When I pout those bags in, I have to be careful not to inhale - the smell is pretty rowdy.

[Sherita]

Water change for tonite is done. Corals ain't happy, but they weren't happy before I did the change either. RO/DI is running again, will do another water change tomorrow. After that one, I will have changed 60 gallons out of a 90g total water volume. I sure hope to see some improvement.

Members of my local club have stepped in and offered to host my still surviving big pieces and my clam, so I can breathe a little easier. I can make room for the little stuff in the frag tank.

Weird thing......I always hear that sea cukes are super sensitive to any water quality failure and will be the first thing to respond in a bad way, or die. My fool tiger tail is right out in the open, where he always is, sifting sand like crazy. He seems perfectly happy. He has had NO reaction at all to this whole mess, just vacuuming and pooping sand, like he always does. Goofy thing.

[tebstan]

...does he really poop sand? I'm fascinated.

Some inverts are sensitive to fluctuations but can handle some pretty high levels if they build gradually. And some inverts can handle water quality swings but not salinity swings. And some just can't handle high nitrates but don't mind swings. And some just defy all common sense and continue eating and pooping sand. :)



How long before the original water change had you tested the ammonia?

Hope everything looks better in the morning.

[Sherita]

He really does poop sand. It's the weirdest thing you have ever seen, it looks like elongated pellets, then just melts back into the sand bed. One thing is for sure, he's always easy to spot, since he leaves a trail where ever he goes. Pretty cool creature, and I love the way he looks. From appearances, you would think he has thorns on him, but in reality, he's just animated snot.

I test my tanks weekly, and that tank had been tested the day before I did the water change. According to my records, ammonia levels were at zero on that day. The day after, I did a water change.......and whammo, I got nailed.

I found my urchin, he's still alive! Mad, but alive. And my other fromia just came out of the rocks. He acts like he's loopy, but he's still crawling around.

I sure hope I see the end of this soon.

[tebstan]

he's just animated snot.


That is SO cool! :D


Glad to hear there's someone else out there that tests regularly. When you get in contact with the salt company that's something they'll want to know. Keep us updated.

[Sherita]

I test all my tanks weekly, and keep a reef log. Otherwise, I have no known parameters to compare against if something goes screwy.

I will now test my make up water for teh dreaded ammoniaz, as well as ph, alk, salinity and temp.

Obviously, it's way too soon to see what everyone thinks about the water change, but my kryptonite candy cane has a feeding response going. Tentacles sticking out, begging for food. That's gotta be a good thing. Of course, no food for him, I don't want to do anything that might tip the balance in the wrong way. He'll just have to photosynthesize instead. Tank is going to have to go hungry for a few days, until I am sure I have whatever is going on under control. My tangs need to go on a diet anyway, they are as wide as they are long. Pigs.

Oh, my nem doesn't look like a wadded up snotball now either. He is inflating. Lots of angry still in the tank tho, and nothing can do mad quite like a monster hairy shroom.

[BSJF]

Keep dosing with Prime!!! Nitrites are even scarier to me than Ammonia. That's the part of the cycle when I lost all my fish to secondary infections.

Keep doing WCs.

Hold your breath!

Cross your toes!

That is what I am doing and it seems to be working for me after my major tank rennovation over the weekend spiked my ammonia on the 150. I expected an issue so I was able to be more preventative than you could have been (I used Prime and WCs from the start).

By chance were you cleaning just before you did your water change that caused the issue?

Glad you found babysitters for the rest of your stuff.

[Sherita]

No cleaning in the tank before this happened. How long do you think I should keep dosing Prime on the tank? I know it locks up the ammonia, but will a test kit reading be correct with it in the tank?

Still lots of mad this morning, looks like my other torch is a goner, but some other things are looking a bit better.

[Europhyllia]

Nitrites are even scarier to me than Ammonia. That's the part of the cycle when I lost all my fish to secondary infections.

Do you think it's possible that their system was weakened by the ammonia stage and the effects just happened to occur during the nitrite stage? Here's an interesting article that touches on the subject of nitrite toxicity in freshwater versus marine fish:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

[Kristy]

Sherita, please keep us posted as you continue to figure this out. It's so bizarre that a (presumably) bad batch of salt would give you all this ammonia. Really sorry to hear about all those losses... makes my heart break for you!

I like Karin's suggestion for adding the Fritz stuff... might help, shouldn't hurt. Good luck with this. You are in my thoughts. Let us know if there is anything we can do to help you out.

[tebstan]

I know it locks up the ammonia, but will a test kit reading be correct with it in the tank?


I haven't seen false positives on ammonia tests from regular use of Prime. I have from both API and Tetra products, though.

[hobogato]

have you tested nitrite today? the prime should help with that as well. i would follow the directions for dosage on the bottle and keep dosing accordingly along with water the water changes.

[BSJF]

I would dose Prime until the test kit says no Ammonia or Nitrites. You should see a spike in the Nitrates.

Karin, I was using a product that detoxified the ammonia, not nitrites. Prime is my friend now.

[Sherita]

I'm still dosing prime, and have ordered the Fritz bacteria. But I think I have lost control of the situation at this point :(

Thanks to the help of my local club and my lfs, all of my surviving showpieces have been moved out. The only thing remaining in the tank are the giant hairy shrooms, a few zoas, and one obstinate gbta that refuses to let go.

It looks terrible, my tank is so ugly right now. Makes me want to cry.

I did have a bright spot in my life yesterday, and again today. Anybody wanna guess? Give ya a hint, one involved resolving transportation issues, the other new livestock for a species specific tank (creature too dangerous to put in my reef).

[Europhyllia]

octopus?

(and yeah I think if you've been in this long enough we all experience some sort of major catastrophe. Thankfully most people are in it too deep at that point to get back out of the hobby but it definitely is devastating. sorry :(

[Sherita]

Karin, I do agree. It's just so upsetting to see it happen. Thankfully I have my other tanks to keep me upbeat about resetting this one.

Nope, not an octo :) I may be nuts, but not that nuts.

[BSJF]

I used my crash in 2008 to justify upgrading equipment. I was tired of my tank and almost got out, but for some reason this renewed my interest, though I still miss my wonderful fish.

New car and a shark egg.

[Sherita]

Well, it's official. My tank is in a full blown cycle. :(

[BSJF]

so did you pin down the cause? The salt? Company said...?

[Sherita]

I still say it was the salt. I have checked everything else and can find nothing that shows ammonia except the make up water that I mixed with that salt. Company says........nothing. Not even a response. Going to give them till the end of the week before I get mad.

Ding! BSJF you got one right........got me a new (to me) car. I'm so happy :)

Not a shark egg. I got me...........

A Sea Apple! He's so cool. They have feet! Did you know they can walk? He's been all over the tank, with his tentacles sticking out, walking with his yellow feet. Talk about color, WOW!

[Europhyllia]

how easily accessible is the salt, how about the mixing container. Any chance a kid or cat could have peed in it?

[BSJF]

They are really cool, so dangerous for the reef as you said. Where you keeping him?

[Sherita]

No cats or kids here. I live alone, and no, I didn't pee in it either ROFL!
how easily accessible is the salt, how about the mixing container. Any chance a kid or cat could have peed in it?

[Sherita]

I set up a species specific tank just for him. The only other residents are a few snails and some shrooms. I put a 20k light on that tank, and his colors just jump right out at you. He's the neatest thing.

And I cannot get over the yellow feet.


They are really cool, so dangerous for the reef as you said. Where you keeping him?

[BSJF]

You could probably spend all day looking at those yellow feet couldn't you!


I didn't pee in it either

Just had to ask the obvious...

[Sherita]

You could probably spend all day looking at those yellow feet couldn't you!

Yep. Now he's all the way at the top of the rocks. I think he likes it there, it's right in the flow of the koralia. Everything I have read about them says they like water flow. Fed him a little while ago, he really got after the phyto. Watching one eat is hilarious.

Just had to ask the obvious...

Sorry, sometimes humor doesn't come across in the digital setting.

[Europhyllia]

okay so why is there no picture of the Sea Apple with the yellow feet ... ;)?

[Sherita]

Photo coming up this evening when I get in from work. He is just the neatest thing. Seems he has found a spot that is acceptable and has settled in.

[Sherita]

Well, I lost the tank :( I did manage to get everything out of it, but my house now looks like some kind of mad scientist experiment. I have tanks and tubs sitting everywhere, more wires than any human should have to deal with, and I am as nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Not enough controllers to go around, so I spend part of my day running around turning fans on and off to help regulate temps. This is officially Not Fun.

My huge purple pseudo jumped two days ago, I found him too late. Just another casualty in this mess. It makes me sick to even think about what I have lost....purple pseudo, mandarin, swallowtail angel, flame angel, bubble coral, torches, frogspawn, duncans, all sps, candycanes, mini maxi nems.

I still have an ammonia reading in the tank right now. I am just going to ride it out. There's nothing left in the tank for it to hurt.

The salt manufacturer has decided that ignoring me will work. All I wanted was the courtesy of a response, I got NOTHING. I am more than a bit peeved about this. Wondering if they would like a little bad publicity about their poor customer service.

And to just top everything else off, the temp probe on my 6 month old RKL has gone screwy. THAT has also turned into a customer service smackdown. I will tell you this, I will never again buy from Digital Aquatics. I have five ACjr's, not one has given an issue........I have ONE rkl, so far I have had to do three factory resets on it, and now the temp probe is swinging over 2 degrees back and forth. Won't buy another DA product, and won't recommend one either.

It has not been a good week in Sherita-land.

[hobogato]

sorry to hear about all of your troubles, hopefully things will turn around for you.

[Kristy]

This is our worst nightmare, probably for all of us... normal routine, nothing easy to pinpoint as the mistake, and everything dying... just terrifying. So sorry Sherita. Wish there was more we could do.

[alton]

I use reef crystals and have never noticed a smell? Maybe somebody messed with the bucket while it was at the store? Sorry about your loss

[Europhyllia]

I am confused by all the old salt/new salt thing.
Which is the salt you attribute your problems to?

[Sherita]

The one that caused the problem was Reef Crystals. It also had a weird smell.

[Europhyllia]

Thanks for the clarification! :)

Maybe the salt got contaminated at the shop? Where did you get it from?

(also I still don't see a sea apple pic????)

[Sherita]

The salt was ordered from Petco. I normally don't order from them, but they had a free shipping deal going, and I needed the super special cat food that my old male eats (if he don't get it, he pukes all over the house). I figured since the shipping was free, why not order salt too? I do suppose it's always possible that something happened to the salt at the warehouse, one can never know for sure. Still no answer from the manufacturer. Not amused.

Apparently my camera only works if the idiot that owns it remembers to charge the batteries. :p


Thanks for the clarification! :)

Maybe the salt got contaminated at the shop? Where did you get it from?

(also I still don't see a sea apple pic????)

[Sherita]

I decided that since I had everything out of the tank, that now is the time to re-scape the tank. I wanted to move away from the rock wall that I had, and go with a more open sandbed this time. Just getting started now, but I have some interesting rock shapes to work with, both in live rock and base (Texas Holey) rock. What I am shooting for is two coral spires on either side of the tank, with the center being an open sandbed back to the foamed back wall. Hoping that I get a sort of "cove" effect". If it works the way I want, the cove resident will be my clam on his little rock. It will put him back at about the same level in the tank that he was, and make him the centerpiece of the tank.

Of course, I am driving myself nuts with this, I keep moving rocks......"yeah, that looks cool". Sit down at the desk.........oh, wait, I don't like that rock right there, must move it. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I will never be dry again.

[Europhyllia]

Haha. And then it all changes anyway when the corals get big. I really get into the arranging thing too. My tank is so deep I have to do it Sumo wrestler style with that bun on top or else even my bangs get wet in the process.

Hey what kind of food do you feed your geriatric puker? I have one just like him...

[Sherita]

My old guy does really well on two foods. One is Hill's Science Diet for sensitive stomachs, the other is Iams Healthy Naturals (tan and orange bag). The Iams seems to be preferred by my geriatricats. I have two moldy oldies here, Minnie, who turns 31!!! this month, and Velcro (aka Arrgh! the pirate, he only has one eye) who turns 16 in two months. Both of the foods contain no preservatives, colors or flavor enhancers. My old guy pukes up anything with any kind of additives at all. I feed no canned food of any kind, that causes unbelievable pukage, everywhere.

I also free feed the oldies. They pick at it all day long, so they always have something in their tummies. Seems to really help too. Minnie can eat anything (including my house plants) and nothing bothers her. Velcro, on the other hand, is quite the "sensitive soul", just about everything upsets his digestive system.

I need someone to come and make me leave my tank alone. This is just getting out of hand. I started in before coffee this morning.......just not right at all.

[StevenSeas]

Some salts may have a smell to them. THis is from a manufacturer of a different salt maker

"may have a slight sulfurous odor when the container is first opened; this is a result of the use of anhydrous magnesium chloride and will dissipate."

This might be the smell?

[Sherita]

This was definitely not a sulfur smell. Smelled like old french fries. or old french fry grease. Just weird. I know I shouldn't have used it, but I just thought the smell was because it was a different brand. I sure learned my lesson.


Some salts may have a smell to them. THis is from a manufacturer of a different salt maker

"may have a slight sulfurous odor when the container is first opened; this is a result of the use of anhydrous magnesium chloride and will dissipate."

This might be the smell?

[tebstan]

I've noticed a smell to Reef Crystals every time I use it.

When I get it in a box, there's a few sealed bags in the box. Every bag has the same weird smell. I don't think it's a sign of contamination. It's not sulfurous, but it's not roses either. The smell is strongest when I open a new bag. When I went to sniff my salt bucket the smell had faded so it was harder to identify.

[Europhyllia]

Hm. I use the bagged/boxed RC and I get them from Petsolutions. I haven't smelled anything but I am kind of smelling impaired.
I'll sniff it when I open a new bag.

Thanks for the puker advice. I'll have to check out IAMS. I hate it when he pukes on my expensive treadmill. It's so hard to get it out of the textured track...

[Sherita]

Here's my apple....

http://www.rosehillwindhounds.com/tank/sea%20apple.jpg

He's a really cool critter. Watching him eat is the neatest thing...he licks his "fingers" clean.

[FireWater]

That is cool. I have never been brave enough to try one after hearing all the horror stories. My wife won't let me set up another tank dedicated to one either.

Any update on the tank rebuild?

[Sherita]

Thankfully I don't have anyone around to put a stop to my plans for tanks........tho maybe I should, since I have way too many <G>.

The crashed tank is in a full blown cycle, so I have started reworking my rock, changing it up completely. I am going with two coral spires at either end of the tank, with a cove in the middle going back to the foamed background. I am watching my ammonia levels as well as all other levels, but I suspect at least six weeks before I can move anything back into the tank. the only thing left in the tank is the tiger tail cuke, who will not come out of the rocks on the foamed background enough for me to get him. He seems to be doign fine, but i am dosing prime daily just in case. While moving the rocks I gave the tank a good cleaning, blowing out all of the detritus from the nooks and crannies. Of course, that made a big mess too, but since there is nothing in there, it doesn't matter right now.

It looks like the losses have stopped now. Everything is in holding tanks or tubs. Thankfully the tissue recession has stopped on my huge hot pink chalice, and it's starting to heal. And the blasto merlitti's are getting happy again. My frag tank is crammed to the limit, so I am doing water changes every few days just to keep the levels under control. I picked up a small mh pendant and put it over the tub that the clam is in, so he is happy again now. I was really worried about him for a while.

And the red coris wrasse has figured out how to use his bowl of sand in the qt tank (to hide in), so now he is no longer stressed. I put in some clean holey rock in the same tank, so that the purple tang had a hideout as well. For now it looks like everyone is handling their living quarters much better. I am still mourning the loss of my swallowtail angel. she was beautiful :(


That is cool. I have never been brave enough to try one after hearing all the horror stories. My wife won't let me set up another tank dedicated to one either.

Any update on the tank rebuild?

[Sherita]

Oh yeah, ammonia levels are finally starting to drop a bit, down to 0.50 now, so I think the bacteria are doing their job. The tank just looks so bare right now, it's killing me. Must have patience.......

[FireWater]

Good to hear that there is an end coming for you. Hopefully all the inhabitants make it through in good health for you.

Never found the exact reason for the spike or did you narrow it all the way down to the salt? I know that was what you were leaning towards.

[Sherita]

Honestly, I still believe it was the salt. Nothing had died, nothing had changed in the tank. The only thing that was different was the salt. I still have that bucket of salt, I keep hoping that Reef Crystals will decide to do the right thing and answer my messages, but it sure looks like they don't care.

I won't be using anything they make ever again. I figure I lost over two grand in livestock. And gained a bunch of grey hairs.

[Sherita]

Ok, I just off the phone with the manufacturer. They are stepping up to the plate to help me figure this out. They have requested a sample of salt, a list of what I lost and the value of those creatures, and a fts of the tank before the crash.

I just wanted to post an update, since the company has now decided to help me find out what went wrong.

[Europhyllia]

I figured you'd hear from them today. :)
Most of these places probably don't have their customer service center staffed over the weekend.

[Kristy]

I have two moldy oldies here, Minnie, who turns 31!!! this month.

I can't get over that you have a 31-year old cat! Mike and I keep talking about it. You even sent me to google the record for oldest cat on record, which by the way, was credited to a cat in Austin, TX that made it to 38, then there's a 36 and a couple of 34s out there in the world. Whatever you are feeding them, it appears to be working!

If you were a little closer, I'd gladly volunteer my assistance on your re-scape. Sounds like fun!

[Kristy]

Oh wow, I'm so glad to hear that the salt company is tryingto help you figure this out. :)

[Sherita]

Miss Minnie is truly an antique kitty, but you would never know it by looking at her. She's still quite full of herself, and deals destruction here on a daily basis. Her most hated enemy is my miniblinds, when she can't see outside, she just pulls them down, and is quite pleased with the results. Me, not so much. She also flies around the house like a lunatic, mostly when chasing moths.

United Pet Group really does seem interested in finding out what the issue was. I am to send them a FTS from before the crash, a sample of the suspect salt, a list of lost livestock along with estimated value, and a detailed letter of how things happened. At least for now, it sounds like they really do want to help. I am glad for this.

[tebstan]

I'm glad you got a response from the manufacturer. UPG is an enormous company, it can be difficult to get anything accomplished with them. It all depends on the individual person you work with. Make sure you have a regular contact person and get as many phone numbers and email addresses you can for that person.

[Sherita]

Ammonia is down to between 0.25 and 0 today. I think the tank is recovering. Going to throw a dead shrimp in there in a couple of days and see if the biofilter can handle it.

So far everything is holding well in the temporary tanks, but I will sure feel better once I get everything back in the place it belongs.

[Europhyllia]

Easy on the shrimp. They can introduce fungi and other stuff. You don't need any new trouble!
If you want some ammonia I can mail you some pure ammonium chloride powder. Instructions are on the Fritz website and it just takes an itsy bitsy amount

[Sherita]

I didn't really think of that. I was going to use some big krill that I have for my marine betta, do you think that would cause problems? If so, I will surely take you up on your offer of ammonium chloride.

[Sherita]

Zero! I gotta zero! No ammonia in my tank, verified by the lfs! Wheeeee!

Still got a ways to go, but I kept staring at that test vial.......don't you DARE turn green :bareteeth:

The only time in my life when I actually WANTED a zero on a test.

Mods, please don't lock this thread yet. I would like to post the final outcome from UPG, whatever it may be.