What constitutes a frag in your opinion?

[CoryDude]

Just like the title says, what do you think is an acceptable frag in your opinion? Personally, I've bought just a few frags from members here on maast, and I've been pretty disappointed in what I received.

A couple of half inch acro pieces glued to a plug is not acceptable IMHO. I like to clip and reattach sps frags to new bases before they enter my tank. It's pretty hard to snip off pieces when you've get less than an inch to work with.

There's also a good chance the seller is either over fragging a colony for profit, or they are fragging from a colony that's too small for propogation.

I think a good sps frag should be at least a 1.5 inches and have a few small branches. The mother colony should be just that, a colony. To me that would be something softball sized at a minimum.

What about zoas, softies, and lps. I don't have a lot of experience buying frags in those fields. I know when I fragged a colt coral, the mother was about 2ft across and the cuttings were about the size of a fist.

[FireWater]

I guess it all depends on what your after. I have sold frags of small to big sizes and have never really thought about it. I know that when I sell if I feel it is a smaller frag then I always at least throw in a freebie or something. What I hate is when folks request a specific size, sometimes the cutter cuts what it can and some you win and some you lose. Another thing that may affect the frag size is price - some folks don't want to pay a premium so smaller less expensive frags sell better. I don't like to have frags laying all over the tank so I try to lower the price however I can.

SPS - at least an inch would be considered good to me.
Zoas/Palys - 5 would be a good # unless I know exactly what I am buying and offer for a smaller count. I have done that recently and was super happy with my purchase.

[Bill S]

Personally, I think anything less than 1" is cutting it close - no pun intended. A 1" or greater frag is much more likely to made it.

[ErikH]

I always ask or tell what size the frag is before buying or selling. Jeremy gave me a single coralite, which grew into a beautiful Silver Bullet. Then the flatworms ate it.

[ramsey]

I think it really depends. If it's a high end coral, a frag of an inch is what i would expect for SPS. However, if it's a really common, fast grower, I'd be disappointed with an inch and a single branch.

[CoryDude]

Agree on the high end corals. When I got my blue oregon tort, it was priced at $100 an inch. So of course, that's all I got. I guess my gripe is about the little nips I've seen passed off as frags. That's why I prefer buying from places like Gabes, Cobs, B&B, and even AA. Cob sold me a 3 head frogspawn that I've been really happy with. AA used to get in some nice sized maricultured pieces for $50. Gabe's ORA and Fishhead pieces are good sized too.

Agree that most zoas should be at least 5 heads.

I guess the ultimate decision is based on demand. If there's a market out there for small cheap frags, then I guess the buyer gets what they want.

[ShAgMaN]

I think an acceptable fragment (frag) is based on the agreement between buyer and seller.

Personally, I would never agree to buying an sps less than an inch (knowingly)- no matter how rare the species. Most are just to delicate and slow growing. However I have no problems buying one polyp zoa and paly frags. In my experiance, I have lost numerous nub sps frags, and a very small amount of zoa/Paly/lps single head frags.

Additionally, I never sell sps frags less than one inch...but I have no regret selling high end one polyp zoas/palys.

[Mr Cob]

I like shags comments.

I don't think I would sell SPS smaller than 1", if I did I would make sure it's encrusted....and I have always had bad luck with small fresh cut SPS. I think the most important thing with frags is that they must be healed.

[Troy Valentine]

Cory I've always wondered about this myself. I think in most cases it depends on how desperate the hobbiest is to make money to buy another coral. However if you agree to it up front that is an entirely different matter. I've actually had hobbiest try to sell me 1/4 inch $20+ SPS frags glued to a plug where the glue covered up most of the coral. To me its a little insight into character, and I will never deal with that person again. 1" if established on plug, 1.5" if not. No exaggerations:)

[cbianco]

SPS 1"+, I glue my SPS frags sideways so I prefer no branches.

Zoas 10+, I have had really bad luck with any zoa frag with less than 10 zoas on it.

Ricordea/Mushrooms 1 count @ 1"+, One Ricordea is acceptable so long as it is at least one inch in diameter, anything less gets difficult to hold in place.

JMO :D

Christopher :)

[Mr Cob]

See...now we are talking what's a frag and what's a colony. I would consider 10 zoas a mini colony. I guess for me it boils down to...if it fits on a plug, tile or disc then it's a frag...perhaps even a mini colony in some cases. If it's so big it can't fit on a plug, tile or disc then it's obviously a colony.

[CoryDude]

I totally agree that there's no problem if the frag is a wysiwyg.

It just seems that there's a new element out there in this hobby. Now, there are some hobbyists that view reefing as a money making adventure, or at least one that will allow them to break even. Of course, the sellers that frag too much do develop a bad reputation with seasoned aquarists, but they'll always have a market with the newbies who don't know any better.

The new guys see a high-end coral that's being offered for a far cheaper price than he sees at the lfs, and jumps on it. Then the unhealthy frag goes into a less than desirable tank and dies. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle between buyer and seller. I'd bet this lack of success is one of the reasons we see a lot of people getting out of the hobby.

I agree that we should trade corals between each other to minimize the destruction of natural reefs in the ocean. But, I just wish some people would do their propogation more responsibly.

[allan]

This is "allan's perspective":

A frag should be large enough so that should the frag start to do poorly it can be fragged with an intent to save the specimen.

In other words, if it's a two inch frag of some SPS and then it starts suffering in your tank like tissue recession or similar mishap, you can cut off the damaged area to keep the whole alive. In a 1/4" piece you are limited to what you are able to grow should something happen before it's large enough.

Zoas and pallies... IDK. I've had good luck with these so I don't really have a problem with three or four, and have sold three to ten, to include a few that have 20 or 30 heads on them as frags.

Toadstools... I don't frag this guy, it drops off pieces, some are very small some are fairly large. I don't want them so I get rid of all of them. I would say despite the size I wouldn't sell any more of these until such a time that they've grown attached to the rock/plug that I've tied them to. One of the cats on MAAST picked one up from me that wasn't attached and he had problems until he lost it. I would gladly replace that one since it really seems to be my responsibility to ensure that the frag is ready for pick up.

In spite of what ever size I would think that a frag should be attached and growing before getting them out the door. It just doesn't make sense to have a litter of puppies and get rid of all of them before they're weaned... we shouldn't do it with coral.

Anyway, noob opinion here so take it for what it's worth. :)

[Mr Cob]

Haha...you are no noob Big Allan.

Sent from my HERO200 using Tapatalk

[ShAgMaN]

See...now we are talking what's a frag and what's a colony. I would consider 10 zoas a mini colony. I guess for me it boils down to...if it fits on a plug, tile or disc then it's a frag...perhaps even a mini colony in some cases. If it's so big it can't fit on a plug, tile or disc then it's obviously a colony.

I agree, to me a 10+ zoa colony is large frag/mini colony. IMO, average zoa frag's would be in the 3-5 polp range - with high end frags smaller to save on cost. However I can't agree on whatever fits on a plug constitutes a frag - sorry Cobby :thumbs_up:. I have a decent sized miami orchard that would fit on a plug (5+inches tall but small base) and would not consider it a frag...or even a mini colony.

[Kristy]

It all counts as frags as far as I'm concerned, but not frags that I would be willing to buy...

Somewhere along the way (probably shortly after upgrading to the 210g tank) we had some conversations about what our best survival rates seemed to be. If I glue a 5 polyp zoa frag down in a 210g tank, it can get knocked down and swept away so easily that I never see it again. So I just don't bother with those anymore.

I try to only buy frags that are healed, healthy, showing new growth, and are closer to colony / mini-colony size. Those I seem to be able to keep alive more often than not. (Sure they are more expensive, so I just buy them less often.) For zoas I'm generally looking for 20+ polyps. For LPS I'd prefer something in the near golf ball size range. I am still pretty new to buying SPS, but have had best results with something around 2".

[Mr Cob]

good point Shagstah! I agree. A colony can fit on a plug if it has a tiny base.

Even more technically correct if the coral has several polyps it's a colony! haha:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral

A coral "head," which appears to be a single organism, is a colony of myriad genetically (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene) identical polyps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyp). Each polyp is typically only a few millimeters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millimeter) in diameter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diameter). Over many generations the colony secretes a skeleton that is characteristic of the species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species). Individual heads grow by asexual reproduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexual_reproduction) of individual polyps."

[FireWater]

It just seems that there's a new element out there in this hobby. Now, there are some hobbyists that view reefing as a money making adventure, or at least one that will allow them to break even. Of course, the sellers that frag too much do develop a bad reputation with seasoned aquarists, but they'll always have a market with the newbies who don't know any better.

The new guys see a high-end coral that's being offered for a far cheaper price than he sees at the lfs, and jumps on it. Then the unhealthy frag goes into a less than desirable tank and dies. It becomes a self perpetuating cycle between buyer and seller. I'd bet this lack of success is one of the reasons we see a lot of people getting out of the hobby.

This was kind of my point as well Cory. You have the ones that don't know any better and the ones that want to buy as cheap as possible too.

I have been guilty of sending fresh cuts out the door, but I also do not have a frag tank set up so a bunch of frags in my 30g won't work for too long as real estate is at a premium. One of the things I like as an infrequent seller is finding feedback on how the frags that I let go are doing in someone else's tank. I always worry about selling so I do not do it often and usually it is an extreme circumstance, ie. need room because coral are at war, when I broke the 90 down, or trading with others.

[CoryDude]

In other words, if it's a two inch frag of some SPS and then it starts suffering in your tank like tissue recession or similar mishap, you can cut off the damaged area to keep the whole alive. In a 1/4" piece you are limited to what you are able to grow should something happen before it's large enough.



Never considered you a noob Allan. If so, I wish my early tanks looked like yours. That's my whole problem with the smaller pieces. You've got very little room for error since you can't cut anything off.


I have been guilty of sending fresh cuts out the door, but I also do not have a frag tank set up so a bunch of frags in my 30g won't work for too long as real estate is at a premium. One of the things I like as an infrequent seller is finding feedback on how the frags that I let go are doing in someone else's tank. I always worry about selling so I do not do it often and usually it is an extreme circumstance, ie. need room because coral are at war, when I broke the 90 down, or trading with others.

Completely agree with everything you said here. I really don't like selling frags. The one time I sold those bird's nest frags, I would have taken it personally if a frag died in the buyer's tank. I tried to frag at least 2-3" pieces with multiple branches so the buyers could snip any pieces that died during acclimation in their tank.

As far as fresh cut, I don't like them, but everything in my tank was a fresh cut piece when it entered my system. I guess that's why I prefer to by from a lfs. ORA, Fishheads, and the other's won't send out pieces to the retailers until they're ready and healthy. It may cost a bit more, but it's worth it.