A new filtration method

[allan]

Hey guys, I got to let you in on my latest discovery.

I put in a large amount of something called charcoal saturday, and I swear my tank looked brighter by Sunday. Like if the water just cleared up.

Amazing. I got the gallon jug from BRS of the highest grade charcoal stuff, put it in my SLS reactor, washed through the dust and put it into operation. I can't believe I hadn't tried this before. Really impressed with the results so far.

[Europhyllia]

LOL

When I saw the post about water filtration was by 'allan' I had to click on it right away to see what you come up with now! I did expect something a little more esoteric than charcoal though...

hey speaking of which, did you see the update to my charcoal/HLLE post?
http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?59773-Possible-Link-between-HLLE-and-Activated-Carbon&highlight=hlle

[allan]

Thanks Karin, for the link. I was looking for that as I had noticed it the other day... after placing the order for the charcoal. But now that it's on my radar I can read it. I've had pretty good luck so far with fish illness so I will have to keep an eye out for it.

[allan]

just finished reading the articles.

[CoryDude]

Took me a few seconds Allan to realize your tongue was firmly planted in your cheek.

I remember reading that article when it was posted a while ago. I've had at least one tang in my tank for years now. Even when I used pounds of carbon for the hiatt, I never had one be affected with hlle. But, I realize this is just one limited experience. It'll be interesting to see if this pans out in a few years after more data is gathered.

[Europhyllia]

in addition to the original article I also posted the follow up study on page 2 of my MAAST link just a couple of days ago ;) That's the one to read

[CoryDude]

Yes, I read that one too. I'd still like to seem some peer review and more oberservation done before it advances beyond the hyothesis stage. Being a science major, I want to see years, and years, and years of review before I would accept this as fact. However, it does have some merit and could quit possibly turn out to be true.

[CoryDude]

Allen, where could someone like me find this so called "charcoal". Would this be the hardwood lump kind? Is it self-lighting?

BTW, that reminds me. I need to start a thread on the new skimmer I just purchased. It's called a skilter. Apparently, it's all the rage over in Europe right now.

[Europhyllia]

Really? I find the findings convincing enough to not subject my fish to such an easily avoidable risk. I mean sure study on. But why should my fish be part of that study?
Here are some things that particularly stand out to me:

The history of activated carbon use at the Toledo Zoo has shown a correlation between the use of lignite (coal-based) carbon and the formation of HLLE lesions in some fishes. Moving the fish to aquariums without carbon filtration sometimes caused the lesions to heal without additional treatment. Once carbon use at the facility was curtailed over ten years ago, cases of HLLE greatly diminished.

.... Three 120 gallon marine aquarium systems (two tanks per system) were established using typical home aquarium equipment and synthetic seawater. Live rock was utilized as the basis for biological filtration in all three systems. Thirty-five Ocean Surgeonfish, (Acanthurus bahianus) were evenly distributed among the three systems at the start of the study.
Because there have been so many purported causes of HLLE, it was very important to control variables that relate to any of the suspected causes.
...
One week after the fish arrived, 500 grams of unwashed lignite carbon was placed in a mesh bag and added to the filter sump of the first system. At the same time, 500 g of extruded pellet carbon was placed in a mesh bag and added to the filter sump of the second system. No carbon was added to the control system. Two months later, the carbon in the first and second systems was supplemented with an additional 500 grams of each variety. This carbon usage follows the recommendation made by Spotte (1979), of 1 gram of carbon per liter, changed every two months.

Study results
Minor HLLE lesions were noted on two fish 20 days after the lignite carbon was added to the sump of their system. The lesions began to develop on the additional fish in that system, and grew in size until after four months, all of the fish in that system showed severe lesions (Eventually involving over one third of their body surface)...

The 12 fish exposed to pelleted carbon did not develop visible symptoms, but microscopic lesions were discovered upon histological examination by an outside laboratory, and two of the fish developed minor lesions a few months after the conclusion of the study.



The 11 control fish did not develop any visible or microscopic lesions. Six months after the study was concluded, and the carbon was removed, the HLLE lesions remain on all originally affected fish, and the control fish are all still symptom-free.
The effect of lignite carbon on the fish was swift and involved all of the exposed fish. None of the control fish developed any lesions. Statistically, the results were definitive that activated carbon use caused HLLE in these fish.

[Big_Pun]

yup Allan thats one of the reasons i run chemipure elite, or sea gel, another thing that clears up my tank is the bio pellets. recently my tank wasnt looking as good as it usual does so i ordered more pellets and added more fresh pellets and in 48 hours tank was crystal clear. i also noticed the old pellets had began to dissolve compared to new pellets.

[CoryDude]

Karin, why do you seem so offended if I disagree with this study? Please re-read my #7 post. I said it could turn out to be true. Don't want to hijack Allen's thread anymore, so I'll post my thoughts in the appropriate thread.

[Europhyllia]

Okay I'll calm down. :) lol

I just think it's worthwhile information to consider if you have HLLE prone fish. Already. Now. Not 10 years from now when it's been confirmed as the absolute truth

I am the same with my kids though. If there is something that shows pretty good propensity to harm them then I'd rather avoid it. Now - even with whatever limited info I got at the time.

All you can do is base your decisions on the info that's available now.

To me this little study includes some pretty good info.
The results were statistically significant.

All I wanted was to throw it out there and everybody can do with it what they want. :)

But it does seem a bit of a bummer that everybody is shooting it down from the get go

That's all. ;)

[allan]

The problem with the experimentation, as I see it, is that there are so many different factors that can be attributed. For instance, the amazing lack of HLLE here with the local population of hobbyiests (sp?)...

To prove it to me they would have to provide the years of research that Cory alluded to. Additionally it would have to, IMO, be in a completely sterile environment. No live rock, no outside possibility of introducing something that may skew the results in one direction or the other. It could be that in those systems... and I'm reaching here, I know... there was a factor that was eliminated which was a food stuff for something that later died because of the introduction of charcoal that led to a toxin that produced the HLLE... or something like that.

There are just too many factors to take into account when just trying different systems as a test to what works where.

I can't really speak to charcoal, but the articles haven't convinced me that any knee jerk reaction is necessary. I've always had a bag or two of charcoal in my sump, this is my first time filtering actively by using a reactor.

Kevin has charcoal running, has he ever had HLLE? I'm sure there are others. But it's like the article states, not every case results in HLLE. Same thing as getting a tang to trim algae... it works for most, but not for all eh Karin :)

At any rate, I do plan on keeping an eye out on my fish to see if any begins to show any symptoms. If they do then it would appear that I will incorporate charcoal as a periodic cleansing of the water column over that of continual filtration. But right now I'm hoping that my results cooincide with the majority of other reefers.

[allan]

Sheesh, you guys were still talking while I was posting... :)

[CoryDude]

But it does seem a bit of a bummer that everybody is shooting it down from the get go

That's all. ;)

I think the reason we're not jumping at this article, is because we've seen stuff like this come and go. It's a natural reaction for a lot of long time hobbyists. When I used to read FAMA and the other mags in the 90's, you'd always see something like this come out of left field, and then die away as suddenly as it appeared. That's why I'd like to see it tested under time and under different microscopes. Like I said, 10 years from now, we could be talking about this subject as a widely held fact.

[ErikH]

I can almost guarantee it to be fact just by my own observation. I added carbon after not using it for a long while. I rinsed it, but not really well. Within hours, I noticed HLLE developing on my hippo tang. I removed the carbon, did a water change, and it went away. This was when my tank was loaded down with corals that weren't brown. The only thing that had changed was the carbon. I pointed my finger at that as the cause. Sure it was a simple observation, but why does the cause to be something completely different in your mind?

Sure tanks are complex and there are many variables, but when only one variable changed, that was obvious, it's hard to deny.

[CoryDude]

Yeah Erik, but didn't the events preceeding this involve a large flatworm exit treament and subsequent red storm of dead flatworms?

[ErikH]

No this was in my 75, before we even moved. I noticed it in my 200 as well though, but even then it was before the treatment.

[allan]

Is it possible to get hlle by the tail? My yellow rim has a spot near its tail.

[ErikH]

Pic?!?!

[allan]

Ugh... I can try. Hold on.

[allan]

http://tapatalk.com/mu/6008b7e8-74f0-61ab.jpg

On his left. Looks better now.

http://tapatalk.com/mu/6008b7e8-7522-feea.jpg

http://tapatalk.com/mu/6008b7e8-7570-4731.jpg

Not very good with the phone.

[BSJF]

You guys are a hoot! I usually run activated carbon, RINSED very well. I'm too lazy to read the article :) so thanks for the cliff notes! I believe (not a scientist so I don't have to prove it to believe it) that it is more nutrition based than anything. You have to remember that running carbon can strip nutrients from the water that may be needed by the fish, and the lack of these nutrients could be the cause as well. I would have liked to see what happened to the 3rd tank after the study if carbon was introduced to that tank. And for the record, this HAS been around for years, and years, and years - this is not new. Erik, I haven't heard of immediate HLLE as a result of adding carbon, so your results surprise me.

I'm so glad Allan has clean water now so we could have this chat!

[CoryDude]

Erik, I haven't heard of immediate HLLE as a result of adding carbon, so your results surprise me.

I'm so glad Allan has clean water now so we could have this chat!

++ on both of those points. Allen, I know you're a big guy, but are your hands/fingers really that big, or is that tang that small?

[BSJF]

Ouch!

Allen, HLLE is typically seen in the head area first, but can be anywhere along the lateral line. I can't tell from your pic what spot you are talking about, so can't answer it.

[allan]

I always thought the tang was pretty big, my hands only look big because the water is magnifying them :/

It actually looks like an irritation of sorts, but it gave me an "uh oh" moment in light of the two threads. The tang in question, to include the hippo, are routinely bumping into something and have broken enough coral that most often I try not to feed them in that area.

Perhaps my kid can earn her keep and snap a picture or two.

[CoryDude]

Dang it Allan, I was just trying to setup the "you know what they say about a man with big hands" joke.

Sounds to me he's just getting scraped up flying through the rocks. Seen a few threads on RC about the same issue.

[ErikH]

If you have enough carbon and enough dust, the results come on fast. It was the only thing changed in my setup in almost a year. I was very suprised at the time frame and onset of HLLE.

[ErikH]

I would just like to see another mature setup with no issues all of the sudden break out with HLLE, without the introduction of carbon. That's a link you just wont find.

[allan]

I was very surprised by how little dust was present.

I did a five gallon water change through the reactor but it was running clear after about a cup or two.

Cory, the rumors are true; it's near impossible for me to find gloves that fit.