I've got an idea!

[allan]

Don't laugh, just tell me what you think.

We throw away a lot of salt water... or rather, we throw away a lot of salt... with water, but what if we didn't have to?

The main reason we do WC is to replenish trace minerals and to lower our nitrates right?

So let's say I want to do a 50 gallon water change each week, on Sunday (I will automate this process so I don't won't offend JC by working on Sunday).

I get two 50 gallon water containers, on Sunday my WC pump will pump out into this container 50 gallons of used water. After that bucket has filled the other bucket with fresh water will pump its contents back into the tank as a WC.

After the aquarium has been replenished you will have the first container full of used water high in nitrates and smelling kind of funky. It sits in that barrel for 24 hours under a full UV lamp to kill those pesky little things that UV kills. At the end of the 24 hour period another pump activates and pumps it into the other 50 gallon container.

Now this next container is filled with macro algae, the fastest growing and the most nitrate reducing variety. When the container fills, a pump is turned on within the container that moves the water about to get maximum flow through the macro while a light turns on to provide the necessary photosynthesis processes that the plants require.

During the next six days the water is oxygenated, de-nitrated, and I'm thinking on tuesday you will add into that container the calcium, magnesium, kalkwasser, iodine... and stuff, to make the water perfect for the tank.

Doing this will negate the need for a calcium reactor, kalk doser, and on a weekly basis provide water to your tank laden with the minerals that your tank requires.

Since the volume in the charging container is a known, you wouldn't have to measure... simply add what is needed to bring the water to a calcium level of 450 or 500 (this will be diluted on a weekly basis back into the display tank). If that's a cup full, or a teaspoon, simply go in there on tuesday, put in the necessary ingredients, close the hatch and let it stir through the deluge of macro for the next five days.

Then on Sunday, the other container makes its weekly withdrawal, once its removed the water the second container with the highly potent and viable water is pumped into the sump of the display tank, and the process continues.

What would be the issues of this? What can be added or changed to make it efficient? Are there any glaring faults that would make it unmanageable or not worthwhile?

If this is a new idea (I doubt it), or worthwhile we can come up with an ingenius name to describe it... I was thinking of "Allan's Method" :D JK, trying to lighten the mood.

What are the problems with this?
Some of the things I was thinking might present a problem is shutting off the return pumps when the water is being drawn from the display tank. Automating the entire process would require careful timing or an application that will control each of the steps in sequence so you don't end up dumping fifty gallons into your system before making the withdrawal.

[Europhyllia]

:D

Why so complicated, Allan?

Why do all the pumping around when you could just do all of this in the tank and sump?

Some really well known aquarium experts (I think one of them is Nilsen) say a yearly water change is all they do.
I mean think about it. Most people remove only 10-20% anyway. So your nitrates go from 25 PPM to 22 PPM. That's not all that exciting - a measly 3 ppm.

You can get that down much more efficiently with macro or nitrate adsorbing media.
And of course we can add stuff that gets used up separately.

In fact separate may be better since the dry mixes apparently aren't as effective at replenishing certain elements etc. anyway (hence 2-part stuff like ESV)

The weekly/monthly water change thing is not something every successful reefkeeper does.

I do it because it makes me feel better to suck out the stuff I don't want to look at. :)
But I've seen posts and info about tanks that haven't had water changes in a year or two and are doing great.

But I do enjoy recycling so I I appreciate your idea in that regard. We do waste a lot of water!

[Europhyllia]

people saying you don't need a water change but it's cheaper and easier to do so:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1528482

people saying they had great systems without any water changes:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1674379
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=878475

[Kristy]

Wow, Allan, this is the second time I've tried to read through your brilliant idea and it's giving me a headache. Sounds like quite the experiment.

I do miss being able to recycle the aquarium waste water by watering my plants with it, like I used to do with our FW tanks.

[allan]

Well, Karin brings up a good point. My nitrates are zero now, and the only reason I've been doing WCs is to get ahead of the cyano however that isn't working so it may be a moot point.

I still feel that throwing out water is wasteful as I believe it can be reconditioned. Beefed up even.

[Europhyllia]

DialySeas - dialysis for your reef:
http://www.seavisions.com/dialyseas_aquarium_dialysis_equi.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-04/pr/index.php

[RayAllen]

What I think,

Sounds like a lot of effort to recycle water.

This idea isnt making water changes less frequent but actually making the process longer and more drawn out to reuse the water on a future water change. Sounds like a interesting chemistry project that requires more time than I would ever be willing to put in myself.

Almost as if you now have more than one aquarium, because not only do you tend to your aquarium. You are now tending to 55g drums.


One way I recycle some of my water. I do water changes on two of my neighbors saltwater tanks. They both are very basic fish only with hardly any filtration. Simple HOB filters that do not get changed frequently. I use my "old" water when doing their water changes. Why you may ask? They may get changed once every two months at best and there nitrates and who knows what else are sky high. My old water is 100% better than what im taking out of their tanks so thats what I use.

[Gseclipse02]

Well, Karin brings up a good point. My nitrates are zero now, and the only reason I've been doing WCs is to get ahead of the cyano however that isn't working so it may be a moot point.

I still feel that throwing out water is wasteful as I believe it can be reconditioned. Beefed up even.


whats your TDS right now on your RODI?


Ps you think to much lol

[Big_Pun]

tossing out old water and adding new is a lot easier and less stuff in my garage :). now I see how dangerous it is to have Allan on vacation

[justahobby]

I've read many discussions about recycling and it always comes down to two factors. Trace elements are tough to impossible to test for and therefore tough to impossible to replace. And the second issue is time and cost. After time spent on the "balling method" and money spent on major elements with the few trace elements you can buy, its turns out to be faster, cheaper, and easier to mix up some new SW

[cbianco]

Well, Karin brings up a good point. My nitrates are zero now, and the only reason I've been doing WCs is to get ahead of the cyano however that isn't working so it may be a moot point.

I still feel that throwing out water is wasteful as I believe it can be reconditioned. Beefed up even.


whats your TDS right now on your RODI?


Ps you think to much lol

"When we treat our tank like a finicky, delicate baby, the tank will act like finicky, delicate baby." - cbianco

I've used TAPWATER in my SPS tank from day one and have never had an algae/cyano outbreak. (<---Flame away!) I do a water change about once every 2 months. My tank looks great, come and see it if you don't believe me. It's been up for right under 2 years now.

I am going to give the 3 secrets to keeping reef tanks... 1. high/powerful lighting, 2. high/powerful skimming, 3. high/powerful water flow. lololololol Get back to basics!

Christopher :)

[Europhyllia]

I've read many discussions about recycling and it always comes down to two factors. Trace elements are tough to impossible to test for and therefore tough to impossible to replace. And the second issue is time and cost. After time spent on the "balling method" and money spent on major elements with the few trace elements you can buy, its turns out to be faster, cheaper, and easier to mix up some new SW

And then what? There are trace elements in the saltwater mix, right? And we don't test for those or worry about overdosing, right? Why not? How did they get in there? If somebody can add a trace element mix to saltwater mixes I don't see why they can't do the same without the salt?

I am not going to go that route but I'd like an explanation of why a ready mix of elements is expected and considered safe as part of a saltwater mix but when mentioned separately people act as if it was just too risky and unknown. What makes it so much safer as part of a mix that includes sodium?

[justahobby]

For starter it isn't practical to buy a est kit for each element in your salt. And the level never become over concentrated or diluted because of the water change. If you have x amount of an element in your salt, your water will never rise above that level and it is hypothesized that after you water change you are compensating for what has been used. Now, do you know where to buy the trace elements found in our oceans or salts? That would prohibiting by itself. And some of these elements require special permits to buy if I recall correctly

[justahobby]

Lol @ Christopher. You forgot #4 you don't keep fish : p

[RayAllen]

Ying/Yang
Black/White
What works for one may not work for another.

Thats the beauty of this hobby, you will never know everything there is to know. Some things will always remain a mystery. We (humans) cant leave good enough alone.

Too many factors... Plain and simple

SORRY Allan this got a little of track.....

[Europhyllia]

ESV saltmix comes as 2-part
1 part salt (dry), 1 part trace elements (liquid)
if I recall correctly.
So theoretically it should be possible to purchase only the trace elements and not the salt.
And then dose it as if it was part of the salt mix. Not more. Not less. Same thing.

[Regric25]

Ill entertain the thought Allan...

One way to reycle the salt water is to take the salt out of the water and use the freshwater to quench the thirsty yard plants. I know it works on a small scale and thinking about it on a large scale kinda reminds me of Allan's mad scientist approach in recycling the water HAHA :D. Try it on a small scale and see if you think it can be done in a larger scale.

1. Get a bowl and fill it 1/2 with salt water,

2. Then get a smaller empty bowl or cup and set it in the middle of the half full bowl.

3. Put tight fitting surran wrap over the top of the bowls to seal it.

4. put a pebble or coins on top of the plastic wrap in the middle so it creates a concave shape but make sure the wrap is not touching the center bowl.

5. Then set it out in the sun.

What will happen is the water will evaporate and condense on the plastic wrap and roll towards the center of the wrap and drip into the empty bowl. This can work in my opinion but what materials could be used on a larger scale.

[justahobby]

And then test for it? You have no way of telling what elements would get out of whack because there will still be TE left if the recycled batch. I don't think for one second that using the ESV to recycle couldn't be done successfully for a time. But now you have to worry when that day is coming. Copper is one of those things that is needed in very small amounts and can become too much too quickly. Fortunately, there is a reliable test for that one. But the unknowns are what make it a dark and lonely place lol.

[allan]

Not at all ray, I enjoy a conversation that takes logical leaps during it's course, which I believe this has.

I'm on my phone so bear with me.

Not sure about my tds, will check in a moment.

As far as the efficiency of Allan's method... Imagine all the work that went into designing the translated which led to the calculator and then the microchip to the computer, now in a few moments we can accomplish a great deal... All built on several decades of "a lot of work".

This system once established will not require much more than trimming algae and adding raw material once a week.

[Europhyllia]

@ Justin:
Oh and how do those all knowing saltmix manufacturers know how much of the stuff got depleted specifically in my system? Or how often I do water changes? And how big my water changes are?

Seems fishy to me...
I could be adding a bunch or not enough. Just as arbitrary as a separate commercial trace element mix would be IMO

I think it's fantastic that Allan is questioning the old and considering new options even if initially it may not seem like a economical solution. I believe the more we ask, the more we learn.

[justahobby]

I agree with you that we still have unknowns. Otherwise our coral would grow as healthy and fast as in the ocean. And there is certainly a lot to learn from this, but as simply an endeavor to recycle salt....until it becomes a rare mineral it won't be practical to spend more time and more money at saving the salt. JMO, I will stay out of it and follow along now.

[Europhyllia]

did anybody read the link on the reef DialySeas system btw? Sounds like that would completely strip the water and replenish

[CoryDude]

The Dialyseas has been around for many years (I remember reading about it in FAMA in the 90's). It is very cost prohibitive ($3200 for the SW model) and IMO tends to violate the KISS rule.

One thought on Allen's idea. Why not add a large sulphur denitrator to quickly lower the NO3 levels in the waste water? You'd need to buffer the water before it's returned to the display tank, but you'd probably be doing that anyways.

This sounds a lot like the idea of recycling household gray water and reusing it. Sure, it may be potable water, but there's a certain yuck factor to it.

[Mr Cob]

I have nothing to add. I tried thinking of something brilliant but it just never came. Just wanted to chime in and say I've enjoyed reading this thread.

[Europhyllia]

I enjoyed it too. Wasn't trying to be argumentative. ;)
Interesting ideas Allan! :)

[Mr Cob]

I enjoyed it too. Wasn't trying to be argumentative. ;)
Interesting ideas Allan! :)

yeah...but far too often people will not challenge an idea or thought so I think your posts helped a lot. Same with Justin. That's kind of what I enjoyed reading about...both sides (if there are any sides at all...lol)

[Europhyllia]

I actually love water changes. :)
Usually...
Not today though
Today the 30 ft hose fell off the top off my 44 gallon saltwater container and self-siphoned about 40 gallons into my laundry room...

[justahobby]

Just wanted to say Thanks for the friendly debate. I noticed no one had mentioned TE yet and I was happy someone was there to counter my statements. I would hate to think my meager knowledge was left without rebuttal.

Allan, about the UV light. How will you know if the light is getting to the bottom of the 50g drum? Will water be circulated in this container too?

[Regric25]

"I would hate to think my meager knowledge was left without rebuttal."

Agreed! :D

[justahobby]

"I would hate to think my meager knowledge was left without rebuttal."

Agreed! :D

Great contribution :D

[allan]

lol, I, like Rob, have nothing to add. :)

UV, I tossed that into the mix as an eleventh hour attempt to touch all bases.

Aside the initial cost and effort (a few pumps, sensors, timers and some misc supplies) I envision a system in which I've nothing to do except toss in three cups of mix into the charging barrel once a week. A few days later the system runs through its routine and the system gets a blast of hypersaturated water to maintain.

Those trace elements are called trace for a reason. Not worth mentioning aside to market (IMO) one product over another. The systems with very little done in the way of water changes do without these trace elements, at least for the year aside from te salt used during the year to combat salt loss to skimmate.

Bear in mind that my goal wasn't so lofty as to save salt or the environment, rather to automate a rather laborious process of water changes.

As it is all I do is run the rodi, add salt, wait 24 hours, then drain a series of five gallon containers. Then flip a switch until my water level is back to the predetermined levels. The only manual labor I must endure is carrying a fiver to the toilet about ten feet away.

But to eliminate that little part of the job and I would be one step closer to kicking back with a brew and talking shop with Erik. ;)

[justahobby]

Sorry Allan, have to disagree again. They are called trace because of the amount in which they are found and used, not because they are insignificant or undeeded. We are comprised of 6 major elements oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus, but if we don't eat our fruits and veggies or if we consume mostly mcDonald's we are more prone to sickness, disease, etc.... just like our tanks.

[Europhyllia]

and if all you are looking for is full automation, maybe Gloria will surprise you with your very own Genesis System for Valentine's!
http://www.genesisreefsystems.com/categories.php?cat=7

[justahobby]

Think of it like your cyano. If you have 0 nitrates and battle cyano.... you dose nitrates to kill off the cyano. You are missing something which is allowing the cyano to overtake other forms of life

[Regric25]

Great contribution :D



LOL you saw my post on the first page right? :P

[justahobby]

LOL you saw my post on the first page right? :P

That's the one I was talking about, haha.


JKJKJK. Sounds like a very cool experiment.

[Mr Cob]

lol Justin. rick is goona roll you man.

[justahobby]

Lol, no kidding.

[Regric25]

I do miss being able to recycle the aquarium waste water by watering my plants with it, like I used to do with our FW tanks.

HAHAHA @Justin & Rob. I was really replying to Kristy when she posted the above. I should have quoted her :P.

Back to the thread! Allan that sounds like an excellent experiment. You should try it on a smaller scale. SAY with 5g buckets lol so if it fails you dont have this huge setup and all this time wasted. :) Start an "Allan Method" thread if you do it!

[Mr Cob]

If you want to be a "manly man" you'll ignore Rick and go ALL OUT dude! Use 100gallon drums dude! Conver the garage....do it up real nice homie!


HAHAHA!

[SoLiD]

"......
I am going to give the 3 secrets to keeping reef tanks... 1. high/powerful lighting, 2. high/powerful skimming, 3. high/powerful water flow. lololololol Get back to basics!

Christopher :)

Amen Brother!!! +1

[SoLiD]

Also, everyone that is concerned with trace elements being replenished make a valid point. The only way I know to replace trace elements without dosing chemicals is via a calcium reactor through dissolving coral skeletons, and even then it becomes more important what reactor media is used.

[jroescher]

I actually love water changes. :)

Have I got a deal for you! I'd even buy lunch.

[cobraden]

This is a great thread and discussion. I lurk around this board quite a bit and always enjoy the new ideas.


... And the second issue is time and cost. After time spent on the "balling method" and money spent on major elements with the few trace elements you can buy, its turns out to be faster, cheaper, and easier to mix up some new SW

That is the issue that comes up with all types of recycling. I'd venture that most people think recycling is a great idea but few are willing to put in the time and $$$ to do it. (guilty as charged) Just easier to throw away the old. Just think about all the paper and aluminum cans in our landfills...and that's easy recycling these days.



"When we treat our tank like a finicky, delicate baby, the tank will act like finicky, delicate baby." - cbianco

...I am going to give the 3 secrets to keeping reef tanks... 1. high/powerful lighting, 2. high/powerful skimming, 3. high/powerful water flow. lololololol Get back to basics!

Christopher :)

Could not agree more!!!! Although I guess the tinkering is what keeps many of us interested in the hobby.

[Regric25]

Could not agree more!!!! Although I guess the tinkering is what keeps many of us interested in the hobby.




I have noticed that I like building and creating my tanks. My tank is getting to the grow out phase now and I am getting bored now lol. I think that is why I went through an 8 gallon BC then a 29g BC then to this tank so fast. That probably why I had 7 freshwater tanks running at one time at one point. I loved to build my systems and when they were done I got bored and tore it down and started another one. THAT is when it got expensive! lol

[Europhyllia]

I've gained some more insight on the saltwater/trace element thing and I am leaning now towards the probably not feasible side.
It was fun investigating though!

[jroescher]

It would seem to me that regardless of what you do, at some point a 100% water change would need to be done at some interval. We know our tanks consume some of the trace elements, but likely not all of them. When we take out a percentage of water we are taking out a percentage of the leftover trace elements, but only a percentage and not all of them. Then we add a known amount of all the trace elements back in with new salt water, with no regard for what was still left in the tank. Wouldn't that cause a buildup of the elements that are not being consumed? At some point it would seem that something would eventually build up to excessive or even toxic levels. The only way to remove ALL the elements, or waste buildup, would be to occasionally remove all the tank water and replace it with new water that contains the safe amounts.

Maybe that would account for why someone's tank suddenly crashes for no apparent reason. It was a beryllium overdose! The tank gets rebuilt (100% water change) and all is good again and the reason for the crash is never determined. Or even situations where an algea for no good reason can't be controlled. (bstreep's tank for instance).

I agree with Karin's logic that testing would not be necessary if you added a trace element solution equal to what a water change would to your existing water instead of using water changes. We don't test for the elements to begin with and would only be adding the same amounts into the tank that water changes do. Antimony, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, silver, thallium, cadmium, vanadium and zink are only some of the trace elements found in our salt mixes. Nobody tests for these when doing a water change, or ever for that matter. At least I don't.

[jrnannery]

Allan, what if in the first barrel, you were to do a homemade, multiple-bulb UV sterilizer made out of UV bulbs and coiled plastic tubing, kinda like how GARF does their flourescent bulbs and then add a coiled plastic tubing wound really tightly so that you had maximum exposure time to every drop of water going through the tubing. In the same tub, you could do a LARGE ATS (Algal Turf Scrubber), recirculating that water constantly over the algal mat. Perhaps incorporate a skimmer and a kalk reactor in the same tub, or in the second. No need for a phosban reactor, and you might put the skimmer on a programmable timer so you only run it for a couple hours a day. No need to waste any more elctricity than necessary. You could create a shelf in one of the drums with a drip system for the chemicals, or purchase an automated dosing system of some sort. The last drum, if you use three would be a polished water storage tank. If you were clever enough, you could figure out how to do it so that it is a constant circulation system, doing away with a storage vessel altogether. Sounds a lot like a sump overall, but you don't usually get the "hang time" in a sump that this setup could give you.

[justahobby]

John, the TE would only build up if you were to only dose TE without a water change. Let's say you have 10 ppm copper (pulling a number out of my hat) in your salt at a set salinity. When you make new SW for a WC that amount will never go higher unless you increase the salinity. When you remove old water whether it is elements or toxins you are resetting the equilibrium with new water. So the most "build up" you can have is the amount contained in the salt at a 100% WC. Now, this is all dependent on the manufacturer not producing a bad batch that contains too much or too little of one element which does occasionally happen. There are also contamination factors like your water source. Using tap water can be dangerous in the summer time when pipes are bursting and SAWS is doing repair almost daily throughout the city. No telling what gets in the water then. Plus all the household plumbing that reaches metals.

On the flip side, we still don't know how big of a role some TE play in healthy coral. I read something a while back that mentioned flouride being important to calcification and is very overlooked. It makes sense considering we put it in our water for healthy teeth.

[Europhyllia]

One thing I learned in the last couple of days is that I assumed the saltmix would provide the perfect amounts of trace minerals and they don't.
A lot of the trace minerals in saltmix are in it in form of impurities. It's not like they come up with the perfect formula and add the stuff. It would be expensive to get salt mix without it because much of it is incidental. So a large concern over it appears to be not to exceed safe levels on some of the stuff rather than to provide/add the perfect mix for growth.
If at the beginning the water contains everything in safe levels and some of the stuff gets depleted over time then a small-ish water change would not be able to fully replace the (desirable) parts that have been used up. So theoretically the only way to sustain those assumed perfect levels would indeed be a 100% water change.

[justahobby]

And that's only if all the levels aren't already too high to start with. Like you said, a lot of them are in the way of contaminants and are at levels much higher than found in the ocean. So if you were to be able to test and dose at the exact levels there is no telling how great the corals could be.

[Europhyllia]

If we would know what levels the corals wanted in the first place! Lol

Well that was a fun discussion with the usual outcome: we found out how much we don't know. Lucky for us things work out reasonable well regardless. :)

[Big_Pun]

to me it comes out cheaper to buy salt than time and also cost of all the elements needed to be purchased to replenish. plus what about having to maintain all those cleaning systems and something going wrong in those, not much can go wrong mixing new salt water. But you never know till you try!

[allan]

I don't know, aside from a few bills for the pumps, barrels, timers and sensors on the front end it seems that you're only going to be bothered by about 2 to 3 minutes a week. Long enough to pour in a cup of "stuff" to vitalize the water.

As Karin noted early on, and many of you alluded to, this would be similar to a sump... Only the water isn't returned quite so quickly to the display tank.

Waste water, what is it but depleted salt water, high (supposedly) nitrates. We do WC for one of two reasons, to lower 'trates or replenish minerals. That's the whole premise of the once a year WC. Those folks are adding minerals on a daily basis. They've got kalk, calcium, phosban reactors and are reading things like rop and other things that really delve into the science.

I (was) thinking that if we were to remove the water from the source of consumption/pollution for about a week and focus on replenishment... That would coincide with a WC.

Looks like the majority disagrees. I might try a smaller experiment with a five gallon deal. Some one give me a 20 gallon rr and I will get started ;)

By the way, what the heck is TE???

[Neptune@gabesfish]

I had to go back a few times Allan to read thread to figure out what TE was also..lol
TE=Trace Element,BTW good thread it really gets everyone thinking and looking outside of box

[Europhyllia]

Trace Elements.

Do your thing Allan.

That's how people make big bucks: by coming up with stuff others thought wasn't worth pursuing or didn't think it was possible. :)

I actually think your last name sounds pretty cool. If you are going to market it I'd suggest you go with the (insert Allan's Last Name) Method.

[allan]

Wow, I didn't know folks could see my last name.

I might just try it. A micro experiment would involve taking tow buckets of water and using one as a control, treat the other one.

But I have to wait till all these people leave :)

[Europhyllia]

I changed my post to keep your awesome last name secret ;)

(you friended me on Facebook, silly. I don't see it here)

[TexasTodd]

I think you should set this up with BIG containers; probably in your kitchen or bedroom.

It was nice knowing you.

:)

[kkiel02]

I agree that WC for reducing nitrates is not very effecient. The main reason I do a water change is to replenish the trace elements. I think you could easily get the water cleaned(nitrate and phosphate) but the problem I think would be adding the trace elements. Finding them, buying them, and adding the correct amounts come to mind. I think you could get away with:1. Doing a small water change weekly which would replenish these. 2. Use two dosing pumps to slowly do a water change continously. Like a gallon a day. But other problems can arrise there as well.

Now off to do a 5 gallon change. lol

[allan]

Hah, I forgot about the face book thing. Yeah, my last name was changed by my grand dad or great grand dad in the early fifties. He added the La to it to avoid child support. Of course I come from a family (on my father's side) of bull poopers... and it's a trait that I've seem to have picked up. :)

I had to laugh at that Todd. Gloria is holding me to my last statement "Honey, I swear that I don't have to buy ANYTHING else!" That's why all of my supplies are sent to your house to "give" to me because you "don't need it".

Kevin, I think the lot of you are probably correct. I liked the idea of building a system that would automate a function... I'm going to see what I can do with a really small system. I should be able to speed up any benefits or problems if I deal with a 20 gallon system with no fuge. I've got some texas trash that I can experiment on.

I did a 15 gallon water change this morning, will be doing another one tomorrow since I've still got 15 of mixed water sitting in my closet. I guess i don't really mind doing water changes.

too much

[neogenix]

What I've been planning on doing is masses of small water changes in an automated fashion. While not removing the need to change water, it may remove the hastle you're talking about, and shouldn't cost more than around 10 or so dollars a month... I had in mind having pre-made, circulating, salt-water ready to go (in the 100 - 200g range), and doing a gallon or more, per day day, which would bring me to above my 10% change... essentially pump out to staging pair of containers with measured float switches.

Here's the process:

* Pump to staging A from storage
* When high float switch in staging A triggers to say water is in container at level, shut down ATO, and pump water out of tank into staging B
* When staging B triggers it's 'high' float switch, start to pump water from staging A into tank
-> If *tank* 'high' float switch is triggered, or salinity is raised above a certain point, or below a certain point, *alarm* and wait for user (continue with ATO disabled, and cease all operations).
* Once pumping has been completed from A, and 'low' float switch has been triggered within the staging tank, stop pump, and re-enable ATO
* Then pump water from B to waste

This'd also allow me to have a large container of mixed water somewhere far from my tank, and only needing two lines running to my tank. Similar to what Dipan has for water storage / salt water storage. The reason i bring this up is that I've given a lot of thought to yearly costs for water / replacement (assuming that you ignore the environment, and assuming you're doing a 10% change per week, in a magical perfect world..). What i figured was at around 200G, I'd be paying give or take 4 dollars for the water (10 if you include waste from your R/O, I use mine to water the garden, and for other things, so I don't), and around 50 or so for the salt, depending on brand. If I then ran a Evo 750+ in the source tank, i'd be spending around 3 - 5 dollars per year for running the powerhead. If I used 10.5G per week (1.5G per day), my replenishment rate would be around 200G every (just under) 20 weeks, giving me a yearly cost of around 12 for the water, 150 for the salt, and lets say 10 for the electricity, so safely under 200 dollars. Granted the capital outlay for this would be in the region of around at least a few hundred dollars, but it should remove any need to add supplements to the tank, and hopefully keep most of the measurable thresholds within any reasonable range... ph/etc... I do however wonder what this would do to 2 part dosing...

Also, while your idea sounds pretty cool, I'm not aware of any reasonably priced UV lighting that would be able to actively remove all the critters within a reasonable price range, without having to circulate it through the UV system... although I'd have to look into that more, it's certainly an interesting idea, although would you not be worried about starting a potential cycle in your vat of water each time you worked on it? Without livestock, and a balanced system, some of the critters may just die, and leech more stuff back into the water. That said, some of the chemicals you'd have to add back may far exceed the above mentioned costs... which could probably be halved if you just did less frequent water changes. Great idea thou!

[allan]

My current set up is similar to what you've outlined above, sans the automation and recovery barrel for waste water. My ATO fills to a predetermined level and the surplus is sent to my mixing barrel.

There I add salt and other materials to spice up my WCs (kalk and Epsom salt). I used to have a mixing pump in there but I had to use it when one of my returns up and died on me. But I do have a return pump in there. Flip a switch and water from the mixer is sent to my system.

So, have you ever run a mixing pump in your mixing barrel continuously? It warms up pretty quick. At one gallon increments this shouldn't have an affect on your systems temp, however... It seems that I remember reading somewhere that temperature affects salinity readings. If so would a warmer water read higher salinity, thus lowering your tanks salinity over time?

I like it though. Seems that the parameters of the system would be much more stable.

As far as the UV is concerned, I envisioned a high powered UV lamp enclosed in a custom glass submersible sitting in the middle of the barrel. Over 12 to 24 hours the morbidity would be very high IMO. The excessive die off would serve as nutrients in the next barrel for the macro.

[ErikH]

http://www.aquariumwatertesting.com/AWT_Salt_Analysis_0208.pdf

What salt are you using to kick this project off with?

[ErikH]

As part of your experiment you should get as many test kits as you can for the known supplements so you can test the water over time. You should be able to pinpoint which elements your tank uses up more readily than others. I figure you could probably do your method for a year or maybe even two before you would need to scrap the water and start with a fresh water change.
I didn't change the water in the 75 for a year, and had great growth with the CA reactor. I may have just convinced myself to buy a new reactor since the TE are coming from dead skeletons... :) In fact, that's probably the difference, in the wild corals are built over themselves and I am sure there is some kind of breaking down of the old skeletons which replenishes the TE for new growth.

[jroescher]

Here's the process:

* Pump to staging A from storage
* When high float switch in staging A triggers to say water is in container at level, shut down ATO, and pump water out of tank into staging B
* When staging B triggers it's 'high' float switch, start to pump water from staging A into tank
-> If *tank* 'high' float switch is triggered, or salinity is raised above a certain point, or below a certain point, *alarm* and wait for user (continue with ATO disabled, and cease all operations).
* Once pumping has been completed from A, and 'low' float switch has been triggered within the staging tank, stop pump, and re-enable ATO
* Then pump water from B to waste


What are you using to control all this?

[neogenix]

My current set up is similar to what you've outlined above, sans the automation and recovery barrel for waste water. My ATO fills to a predetermined level and the surplus is sent to my mixing barrel.

There I add salt and other materials to spice up my WCs (kalk and Epsom salt). I used to have a mixing pump in there but I had to use it when one of my returns up and died on me. But I do have a return pump in there. Flip a switch and water from the mixer is sent to my system.

So, have you ever run a mixing pump in your mixing barrel continuously? It warms up pretty quick. At one gallon increments this shouldn't have an affect on your systems temp, however... It seems that I remember reading somewhere that temperature affects salinity readings. If so would a warmer water read higher salinity, thus lowering your tanks salinity over time?

I like it though. Seems that the parameters of the system would be much more stable.

As far as the UV is concerned, I envisioned a high powered UV lamp enclosed in a custom glass submersible sitting in the middle of the barrel. Over 12 to 24 hours the morbidity would be very high IMO. The excessive die off would serve as nutrients in the next barrel for the macro.

Re: Return Pump -> That's why I was thinking about using a evo powerhead. It's small, cheap, and adds little to no heat.

Re: Heat and Salinity -> You're certainly right about the salinity, but I would assume that over time, it should even out. i'd be testing the water in the salt water vat on production, which should have it at a reasonable temp... Interesting idea though. In texas during summers, that would certainly change the salinity...

Re: UV -> Did you look at any models for this?


What are you using to control all this?

Reefkeeper Elite currently, but will probably move to something else at some point as I'd like different logic options which none of the current controllers offer.