Probiotics and carbon dosing presentation - questions for Murray

[murraycamp]

Please feel free to post any questions about the material covered in the presentation.

[Big_Pun]

ok first question. when dosing amino acids is there a certain time of day that would be best to dose it. before going to Warner marine pellets I was dosing aquavitro fuel, and had noticed a lot of growth but slowed dosing since adding the pellets. also pellets have only been running 4 days. great presentation by the way.

[murraycamp]

ok first question. when dosing amino acids is there a certain time of day that would be best to dose it. before going to Warner marine pellets I was dosing aquavitro fuel, and had noticed a lot of growth but slowed dosing since adding the pellets. also pellets have only been running 4 days. great presentation by the way.

Thank you. I hope you found the presentation informative.

I cannot comment on Aquavitro Fuel, as I have not used it. As a general all-around AA supplement, I have used KZ's Amino Acid product (AAHC) with good results. For low nutrient Acro tanks, I use KZ's Pohl's Xtra and have had very good results. There are many products out there and, I'm sure, some are better than others.

In terms of the time of day to dose, it presents an interesting question. At least one study found that the energy supplied by zooxanthellae photosynthates is necessary for the process of amino acid uptake, at least with the AA valine and in the coral Galaxea fascicularis. See S. Al-Moghrabi, D. Allemand and J. Jaubert, Valine uptake by the scleractinian coral Galaxea fascicularis: characterization and effect of light and nutritional status, Journal of Comparative Physiology B (1993) Volume 163, Number 5, 355-362.

Accordingly, at least with that particular AA in that particular coral, light is necessary. That conclusion may have broader application, but I don't know.

HTH

Murray

[txg8gxp]

Ok, I'm alittle confused. So does that mean it would be better to add in the morning or evening. I add mine with coral frenzy and feed before lights out....maybe I need to change.

[cbianco]

Do we have a definition for ultra-low nutrient system reef? What nutrients are low? How low are they?

Christopher

[murraycamp]

Ok, I'm alittle confused. So does that mean it would be better to add in the morning or evening. I add mine with coral frenzy and feed before lights out....maybe I need to change.

I would dose with the lights on - but it may not make any difference, depending on whether the uptake for valine is similar to other AAs.

[murraycamp]

Do we have a definition for ultra-low nutrient system reef? What nutrients are low? How low are they?

Christopher

As I mentioned in the presentation, "ultra-low nutrient system" is a hobbyist term and is misleading to the extent it implies that we are able to reproduce dissolved nutrient levels equivalent, or even really close to, those found in waters on or adjacent to coral reefs. In the hobbyist context, it generally refers to NO3 levels at 2 ppm or below and PO4 levels at .03 ppm or below, as measured with good hobbyist grade test kits.

[alton]

Thanks Murry for the presentation, I went back and read the new Coral Magazine with your formula for VSV. Now I just have to find grape/corn sugar.

[Pennies2Cents]

Please feel free to post any questions about the material covered in the presentation.

Murray, it was great of you to come out to L*MAR and speak to our members. :) It is/was greatly appreciated.. I look forward to seeing you again at next years event.. :)

Your presentation was awesome.

Thanks Again..
Eve

[murraycamp]

Thanks Murry for the presentation, I went back and read the new Coral Magazine with your formula for VSV. Now I just have to find grape/corn sugar.

Check the heath food stores - it's also sold as dextrose.

[murraycamp]

Murray, it was great of you to come out to L*MAR and speak to our members. :) It is/was greatly appreciated.. I look forward to seeing you again at next years event.. :)

Your presentation was awesome.

Thanks Again..
Eve

I really enjoyed it. I think this event has great potential, and would love to come back next year.

[stoneroller]

Great talk, Murray. You did an excellent job assimilating a ton of information and presenting it all in a well fashioned manner. Here's one I was thinking about today, if it's bacteria diversity and abundance (the right strains at least) then isn't it best to use each of the probiotic additives out there? MB7, prodibio, Zeo, etc. Surely each have strains unique to their formulations. I think you make a great point in providing diverse sources of carbon; quite analogous to the approach of using a diverse array of lighting. Why not bacteria?

[Kristy]

Check the heath food stores - it's also sold as dextrose.

Yeah, something about health food stores that feature clerks who are sporting Birkenstocks and listening to Indigo Girls, as I recall! :innocent2:

[murraycamp]

Great talk, Murray. You did an excellent job assimilating a ton of information and presenting it all in a well fashioned manner. Here's one I was thinking about today, if it's bacteria diversity and abundance (the right strains at least) then isn't it best to use each of the probiotic additives out there? MB7, prodibio, Zeo, etc. Surely each have strains unique to their formulations. I think you make a great point in providing diverse sources of carbon; quite analogous to the approach of using a diverse array of lighting. Why not bacteria?

The issue is whether the specific bacterial strain inoculated is efficient at uptake of the specific carbon source dosed. For instance, the bacterial strains in Zeobak appear to be efficient at utilizing the specific carbon sources in ZeoStart, ect. From experience, I can say that the Zeobak/Zeostart combination works well, as does Prodibio/VGV.

Then, there is always the issue of whether we need to inoculate in the first place, and there are cogent arguments that we do not. IME, however, it helps, especially in the first few months of set up or transition to a bacterial-driven filtration methodology.

Make sense?

[Kristy]

Hey Murray,
First off - thanks again, not only for your presentation, your participation in L*MAR, but your friendship and support of MAAST, such as initiating this thread!

My question: Can you repeat the comment in your presentation about how the best indicator that you know of for low ______ (magnesium? potassium? oops, I cannot remember!) was the loss of color in a monti cap? I should have written it down, but I didn't get a chance to take notes on Saturday.

Anyhow, what would your recommendation be for correcting this depleted resource? Dosing? Water changes? Some combination of vodka, glucose, vinegar, etc.?

[murraycamp]

Hey Murray,
First off - thanks again, not only for your presentation, your participation in L*MAR, but your friendship and support of MAAST, such as initiating this thread!

My question: Can you repeat the comment in your presentation about how the best indicator that you know of for low ______ (magnesium? potassium? oops, I cannot remember!) was the loss of color in a monti cap? I should have written it down, but I didn't get a chance to take notes on Saturday.

Anyhow, what would your recommendation be for correcting this depleted resource? Dosing? Water changes? Some combination of vodka, glucose, vinegar, etc.?

Kristy - I was discussing potassium depletion in the context of zeolite-based methodologies (Zeovit, Ultralith, ect.). As for supplementation, if the levels are not too low, water changes may suffice, but a lot of salt brands are low in potassium. Otherwise, several manufacturers make potassium supplements. I use KZ's product, but I know Warner Marine also makes one, and Jon Warner's products are generallly always good. I am sure there other others out there.

Also, you may want to check out my article as it contains a lot of the information I covered in the presentation. CORAL has actually posted the entire article online:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/probiotics-demystified It is broken up into multiple sections, so you need to follow the links in the main article to access the all the sections (such as the DIY section).

HTH

Murray

[CoryDude]

Mr. Camp, first off I'd like to say this thread has been the first discussion I check everytime I log on to the site. Thanks for taking the time to keep this discussion going.

I couldn't attend Saturday's conference, so I apologize in advace if this topic was already covered.

Any chance I can get an opinion from you regarding the Hiatt filtration method? My past experience is that it works in reducing organic compounds, at least to the naked eye. Do you have information as to if this method works, and if so, how? What little information that is available about it seems to be inconclusive, and the proprietor is pretty secretive about the mechanics of it. Thanks.

Cory

[Big_Pun]

thank you for your fast responses, and also for bringing light to this method. i know alot of people are on the fence but i hope this helps. very nice article also.

[Europhyllia]

I had to miss your presentation on Saturday but found your article in Coral Magazine (the print version) very informative. I especially liked the summary of different 'brands' on page 70 (brand/carbon source/bacteria yes/no). I think I might give the BioDigest a try. :)

[murraycamp]

Yeah, something about health food stores that feature clerks who are sporting Birkenstocks and listening to Indigo Girls, as I recall! :innocent2:

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[murraycamp]

Mr. Camp, first off I'd like to say this thread has been the first discussion I check everytime I log on to the site. Thanks for taking the time to keep this discussion going.

I couldn't attend Saturday's conference, so I apologize in advace if this topic was already covered.

Any chance I can get an opinion from you regarding the Hiatt filtration method? My past experience is that it works in reducing organic compounds, at least to the naked eye. Do you have information as to if this method works, and if so, how? What little information that is available about it seems to be inconclusive, and the proprietor is pretty secretive about the mechanics of it. Thanks.

Cory

I love Hiwatt! I think both Page and Townsend's best live work was when they played through Hiwatt systems.

9719

Oh, you said Hiatt. Never mind.

I really don't know anything about the Hiatt system except that it appears to be GAC with a poor bacterial inoculant. I'm not sure that really constitutes a "system." This kind of thing tends to make my BS detector go crazy. But, like I said, I really don't know.

[murraycamp]

thank you for your fast responses, and also for bringing light to this method. i know alot of people are on the fence but i hope this helps. very nice article also.

Happy to help, and thanks for reading!

[murraycamp]

I had to miss your presentation on Saturday but found your article in Coral Magazine (the print version) very informative. I especially liked the summary of different 'brands' on page 70 (brand/carbon source/bacteria yes/no). I think I might give the BioDigest a try. :)

Cool beans. Let me know how it goes.

[CoryDude]

Nigel Tufnel ("but mine goes to 11") has always been my favorite. "Big Bottom" is a way better song than "The Seeker". Spinal Tap Rules!!!

J/K. Thanks for the honesty on the hiatt. I'm not a die hard fanatic of the method, so hurt feelings here.

[ErikH]

Can you give a quick rundown of what type of biopellet setup you would use as well as alternative carbon sources if used in conjunction? I see above you said one alone is not your recommendation if I read correctly. I am currently running a diy reactor with NP biopellets. Or if there are good links oot and aboot, those would be appreciated as well. TY Murray, I appreciate it!

[mdavis735]

Murray,I just started running vertex biopellets after dosing mb7 for 2 weeks. I am running it in a TLF reactor. Is there any reason I should not run run the output of that reactor through carbon before putting it in the sump?

Sent from my EVO on the Now Network from Sprint!

[murraycamp]

Can you give a quick rundown of what type of biopellet setup you would use as well as alternative carbon sources if used in conjunction? I see above you said one alone is not your recommendation if I read correctly. I am currently running a diy reactor with NP biopellets. Or if there are good links oot and aboot, those would be appreciated as well. TY Murray, I appreciate it!

I have only used two different carbon source methodologies simultaneously: (1) in transitioning from one to another, or (2) experimentally in my NPS system. As to the later, I was running EcoBak pellets with Zeovit, but am now just running the EcoBak. In actuality, with the daily crazy insane massive food input, I haven't seen any difference between methodologies in that system.

For almost all other systems, I would pick one system and give it a chance to work. The problem with using multiple systems is that different bacterial species/strains utilize different sources of organic carbon preferentially. While that principle seems to work well in a mixed liquid source application (e.g. VGV), using, for example, vodka with a polymer may cause instability. But again, it may not. If you are not happy with the results of the polymer, and want to experiment, I would consider ethanol in small amounts in addition to the polymer.

HTH

[murraycamp]

Murray,I just started running vertex biopellets after dosing mb7 for 2 weeks. I am running it in a TLF reactor. Is there any reason I should not run run the output of that reactor through carbon before putting it in the sump?

Sent from my EVO on the Now Network from Sprint!

To the extent that solid polymers dislodge bacterioplankton (which is unclear), you may not get that added benefit. There is no real need to do so, unless its a plumbing issue.

HTH

Murray

[Europhyllia]

just my experience: During start up of my pellets I got a lot of bacteria snot and even though the media reactor containing the carbon was not directly at pellet reactor output the bacteria slime still gunked up the carbon pretty bad. I don't imagine that to be a good thing

[mdavis735]

Thanks for the reply's. I won't do it that way. It was sort of a plumbing issue.I have a T in my return line that feeds my reactors. That line is also T'd. One side feeding the pellets the other feeding my carbon reactor. I seem to be on the verge of having enough flow to the pellets. I was just thinking if I ran all the flow to the pellets first then the carbon i'd be able to get more flow to the pellets if needed.

Sent from my EVO on the Now Network from Sprint!

[ramsey]

I've started researching biopellets lately and have a question. Can you run them in a canister filter or would it not work as well as a reactor?

[murraycamp]

Canister filter would probably be ok, but you will get better surface/water contact with a reactor.

[ramsey]

Cool, I guess the TLF reactors are a cheap enough investment. One more question. I've heard people having problems when switching from running a fuge to carbon dosing. Any recommendations on making the switch? I was thinking about slowly dosing carbon and slowly phase out the fuge. Any other caveats?

[murraycamp]

Cool, I guess the TLF reactors are a cheap enough investment. One more question. I've heard people having problems when switching from running a fuge to carbon dosing. Any recommendations on making the switch? I was thinking about slowly dosing carbon and slowly phase out the fuge. Any other caveats?

I am unclear as to what problems you have heard about. Can you be more specific?

I assume you are referring to a refugium with macroalgae in it. I would leave the fuge operating. Once the nutrients decline to a certain level, you should see either inhibited growth in the algae or actual die off of the algae from lack of nutrients. In the latter instance, I would remove the algae once you start to see die off to prevent decomposition and attendant release of stored nutrients back into the system. Other than that, I am unaware of any incompatibility.

HTH

Murray

[stoneroller]

Or maybe issues with DSBs?

[ramsey]

Specifically, I've heard of PH/oxygen problems due to bacteria blooms. That's what I want to avoid.

[murraycamp]

Specifically, I've heard of PH/oxygen problems due to bacteria blooms. That's what I want to avoid.

That would be from overdosing of a labile organic carbon source. It's not necessarily directly related to extant filtration systems.

[txg8gxp]

How do you feel about dosing bacteria( MB7,etc. ) from time to time to control/add bacteria strains to bio pellets? Thanks.

[murraycamp]

How do you feel about dosing bacteria( MB7,etc. ) from time to time to control/add bacteria strains to bio pellets? Thanks.

The real issue is whether the specific species/strains in the inoculant are efficient at utilizing a given polymer. We just don't know. IME, Prodibio is a good inoculant for ethanol or VGV. The good commercial systems appear to have good inoculant/carbon source synergies. If you feel you need an inoculant, I would experiment.

HTH

Murray