MH vs. T5... Why so much push for MH...

[neogenix]

So, I've been doing a ton of research, I'm a pretty big fan of running just T5's, and from what I can tell, it's actually not the evil some folks make it out to be. What I'm wondering at the moment what the big push for MH is, when a huge number of the best tanks online are T5 only, here're some examples:

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17270
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16420
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15687
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14565
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12347
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19071

So why does everyone seem to be so set on me running MH on my new tank? I'm currently thinking 6x54W (52"x21"x24", 115G, give or take) which would be split into 3 white, 2 blue, and 1 fiji, or royal blue, or similar... based on the feedback I get of course :)

So comments?

[kkiel02]

I think the biggest push is the depth that mh can penetrate. At 24" you could go either way. I did mh because I could set it up pretty cheap with pendants.

[allan]

Yeah,I spent a few shiney pennies on my tank. I have ten tubes under the hood, each with it's own tek reflector.

[ReefCube]

i run t-5 on my tank but i would have to say it is cheaper to run halides unless you want a cheap t5 fixture that only does soft corals. The good t5 lights cost a lot of money $600 + where you can get a really nice halide fixture for about $300. halide bulbs usually last longer than t5 atleast thats what I hear I replace mine about every 6 months at $20 a bulb it adds up. Also shimmer is a look that many people like and that is only done with halides. T5s are cooler so many people dont need to buy chillers where people with halides usually do in most cases.. Halides are not bad best bang for the buck it at all just depends on what you like and how much you want to spend.

[alton]

My 300 = 3 x 250w MH and 1 - 160w VHO = $210 for lamps and 988 watts used / If I changed to T5HO 20 x 39w T5HO = 20 x $20 = $400 for lamps and 788 watts used but my tank is 27 inches tall and may not be enough light? I use T5HO on my 29 but it is 20" tall. Most tanks I have seen with T5HO are gorgeous with the different color lamps but are in the 20" range in height.

[rockmp]

Has anyone ever done the math for power consumption on MH? I wonder in the long run if it would be cheaper for T5's?

[hobogato]

one of the nicest tanks i have ever seen was bernie's 240 gallon with only t5 lights. he had basketball sized sps colonies!!

[Big_Pun]

I've talked to some people who have done both and I've done both, from my experience and from people I've talked with t5 is great but power seems to fall after a couple months so you need to buy fresh bulbs, also for less than half the price I was able to buy one MH pendent and ballast and bulb and I like the shimmer and my tank is 24" tall.

[ballardjr2000]

I run T-5's on my 90g 8 54w bulbs 4 12k 4 blue actinic I am switch over to a different MH fixture for better depth penatration. And the shimmer is awesome to see.

[Europhyllia]

I will stick with all T5s until I am able to afford LEDs
No point in spending money to heat up my tank with my lights

[ballardjr2000]

+1 thats the fixture i am buying getting it from saabtech the SUPER BRITE LED project he did but it does have some MH with it. Fish will probly glow after the lights go off at night.

[ErikH]

T5s need the right reflectors and bulb combos. Also those are zeovit tanks. Zeovit works to deplete nutrients and make the water superbly clear. The clear water often burns corals, in fact they tell you to be careful of that.

[Mr Cob]

I have used PC, VHO, MH, LED and T5.

My favorite is a combo of MH, LED and T5. MH for shimmer and main lighting...oh and my favorite part is when the ballast kicks on and the bulbs slowing come up instead of popping on and shocking everything. I like T5 for actinic...great blues and they are small unlike VHO and PC and then LED for moonlight. That's my favorite combo.

I have never used LED for main lighting so I have no experience there.

I have used both T5 and MH as main lighting for several years and I prefer the MH for the shimmer and the bulbs last longer. I found that using T5 I had to switch bulbs out every 6 months when putting them over SPS because they lose intensity much quicker than MH.

Like Ace mentioned...one of the best tanks I have ever seen with HUGE SPS colonies and beautiful color was Bernie's old tank....all lit by T5.

I still prefer MH...personal preference. There are cons and pros for both T5 and MH....but both can give you the same end product.

[Regric25]

Its really just what you prefer. Both are proven light systems. I personally have the MH lights I run 2 250w balasts with XM 20k DE bulbs. I was worried about heating up the tank but I have NOT had ANY problems with temperature. I think that mainly applies to people who use a canopy. With my MHs I am able to run the super blue 20K bulbs to get the actinic POP effect without sacrificing the corals needs. Plus I like the shimmer effect :P

[RayAllen]

Im not running either at the moment, but I did LOVE my MH HQI pendant when I had it. As rob mentioned I really like how the bulbs has a gradual build up to its maximum brightness/wattage. Gives the animals in the tank enough time to adjust. The shimmer a MH creates looks more natural on the sandbed then any other lighting out there.

Although ive not had T5 (yet) what I do like about them is the wide variety of colors spectrum to choose from. What I do not like about them is that they do not come in longer lengths.

I run 3 60" VHOs on my 180 and can not be happier. Run PC on my biocube. Call me old school in that way, im ok with it ;) If it works, looks good to you and you are happy nothing else matters. I apply that thinking to everything I own.

[Europhyllia]

Ray
just wanted to mention that the 60" T5s have covered my 72" tanks pretty well. 72" bulbs would probably be tough to ship

[Mr Cob]

I agree Ray.

Also, I have always had a canopy on evey tank I have owned and with MH I never had a temp problem....but we keep our house at 73-74 and I only run my MH for 7 hours.

It's all preference and what works for you.

[Bill S]

There are lots of great T5 tanks out there. But, if I were doing it over again, I'd go MH. In fact, if I ever get this nano up and running, I'm putting a MH on an 8 gallon nano.

[alton]

For every 100 watts at 10 hours a day for 365 days a year at $.10 a KWH it is $36.50 a year
Has anyone ever done the math for power consumption on MH? I wonder in the long run if it would be cheaper for T5's?

[alton]

http://www.reefgeek.com/lighting/T5_Fluorescent/ATI/Powermodule_Fixtures/60_inch__10x80W_Powermodule_T5_High-Output_Fixture_w!_Bulbs_by_ATI

I would love to try this fixture on my 300, any one want to float me a long term loan? And I am still looking at 808 watts, but it would be nice!

[ErikH]

Here's my video that I made awhile back...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECb0mCE7Y64

[RayAllen]

http://www.reefgeek.com/lighting/T5_Fluorescent/ATI/Powermodule_Fixtures/60_inch__10x80W_Powermodule_T5_High-Output_Fixture_w!_Bulbs_by_ATI

I would love to try this fixture on my 300, any one want to float me a long term loan? And I am still looking at 808 watts, but it would be nice!

Wow, thats one sweet light!

I can not ever see paying more than my monthly mortgage on any one peice of equipment. I just cant justify doing it. Definately could not explain that one to my wife either, lol.

[Mr Cob]

Hey that's under my payment....lol, does that mean I can justify it? My justification is...I can't spend more $ than my car payment on any equipment. lol (my payment is low too....that's why I have to trade for everything...haha)

[neogenix]

Has anyone ever done the math for power consumption on MH? I wonder in the long run if it would be cheaper for T5's?

Just doing some basic maths, 2x 250w would use 500W, and then add 2x 54W, or 4x54W to add the blues, etc... (if you were going to run a hybrid fixture) it would give you around 716W. Compared to an 8 bulb 54W fixture, you'd look at around 432W.


i run t-5 on my tank but i would have to say it is cheaper to run halides unless you want a cheap t5 fixture that only does soft corals. The good t5 lights cost a lot of money $600 + where you can get a really nice halide fixture for about $300. halide bulbs usually last longer than t5 atleast thats what I hear I replace mine about every 6 months at $20 a bulb it adds up. Also shimmer is a look that many people like and that is only done with halides. T5s are cooler so many people dont need to buy chillers where people with halides usually do in most cases.. Halides are not bad best bang for the buck it at all just depends on what you like and how much you want to spend.

Alot of the fixtures are *all* now around 400ish, give or take. And the same can be said for MH, a good fixture also costs $$$ (look at the IceCap R/I fixture that hybrids in 250W MH's and T5's).


I think the biggest push is the depth that mh can penetrate. At 24" you could go either way. I did mh because I could set it up pretty cheap with pendants.

I'm looking through some of the tank specs for TOTM, and TOTQ (from RC, and ZeoVIT) and, alot of them are taller than that.


one of the nicest tanks i have ever seen was bernie's 240 gallon with only t5 lights. he had basketball sized sps colonies!!

Pics?


I've talked to some people who have done both and I've done both, from my experience and from people I've talked with t5 is great but power seems to fall after a couple months so you need to buy fresh bulbs, also for less than half the price I was able to buy one MH pendent and ballast and bulb and I like the shimmer and my tank is 24" tall.

Yes, but when you get to a real tank, and you need real lighting :P is it really cheaper to run MH. 2 250's, is a lot of power, and as someone else worked out it's around $40 per year per 100W more. So to run a 716W fixture vs a 350W fixture would be double the cost in electricity over the year, and of course keeping in mind that it *could* raise your temp, which may cost you more in the long run. If you end up with even having to run a chiller for 3 months, it would be significantly cheaper to have T5 from the maths I'm doing now.

The other thing to bare in mind is that the fixtures are significantly cheaper than good MH fixtures. So if over 3 years you spend 1000 on the fixture and 280 per year on electricity, you'd be looking at around 2k. If you run the T5's, you'd look at around 500 for the fixture, and then 140/year on electricity, saving you over 1k over 3 years. At some point, LED is definitely the way to go, but is it worth it now?


I run T-5's on my 90g 8 54w bulbs 4 12k 4 blue actinic I am switch over to a different MH fixture for better depth penatration. And the shimmer is awesome to see.

If you're going to sell it, let me know which fixture and how much you'd like for it.


I will stick with all T5s until I am able to afford LEDs
No point in spending money to heat up my tank with my lights

Exactly, that's the other thing to bare in mind. What do we do when LED, or Plasma actually becomes affordable in a year or two??


T5s need the right reflectors and bulb combos. Also those are zeovit tanks. Zeovit works to deplete nutrients and make the water superbly clear. The clear water often burns corals, in fact they tell you to be careful of that.

Yup, but they're also SPS tanks with specific lighting that is T5, which i was using as an example ;)


For every 100 watts at 10 hours a day for 365 days a year at $.10 a KWH it is $36.50 a year

Thanks!!


http://www.reefgeek.com/lighting/T5_Fluorescent/ATI/Powermodule_Fixtures/60_inch__10x80W_Powermodule_T5_High-Output_Fixture_w!_Bulbs_by_ATI

I would love to try this fixture on my 300, any one want to float me a long term loan? And I am still looking at 808 watts, but it would be nice!

HAHAHA, 808W though, is still pretty hardcore, and I've no doubt that the comparative MH would be much much much higher Wattage.

Thanks for all the replies guys!!

[Big_Pun]

ok patrick why dont you be the first and get this plasma arc/t5 fixture

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/05/15/sfiligoi-vision-lifi-light-plasma-arc-beautiful-fixture/

[Zephyr Aquatics]

I'll tell you one thing, my power bill is $100 less last month than the month before when we were running 6 250 watt halides. $100 x 12 months will buy any t5 or led system on the market.

[BIGBIRD123]

I have run T5 and halides and nothing beats halides on growth....hands down

[rockmp]

one of the nicest tanks i have ever seen was bernie's 240 gallon with only t5 lights. he had basketball sized sps colonies!!

Here is Bernie's 240 lit by only T5's......http://www.maast.org/showthread.php?47635-Couple-of-Tank-Shots

He was growing SPS all over that tank.

[neogenix]

Pretty, and yeah, seems that T5 would suffice... we'll see though.

[OrionN]

I think it is a fallacy to say that 250 W MH produce more heat than 250 W T5. When one put 250 W/Hr for 10 hrs into a system, all of these energy will end up as heat, the same amount for MH as it is for T5. How efficient in lumen/ unit of energy of fluorescent (t5 is just a small tube florescent) vs. MH is debatable, but there is no arguing the fact that 250 W-hr input into a thermally isolated system will increase the temperature of that system by a specific amount whether you use a heater, or any type of light bulb because all of the light will end up as heat anyway in the end.

T5 vs MH bot can produce a lot of light but like any fluorescent lights, T5 bulbs need to be change every 6-8 months or so or else the light out put drastically decreases. MH need to be change every 18 months or so, the degradation is a lot less even at 18 months. The price of 250 W worth of T5 bulbs is high while the cost of one of the Chinese produced 250 W MH is less than 20 dollars with shipping, cheaper if I buy multiple bulbs. I can get 10 years of bulbs for the MH for a single change of T5 bulbs.

MH is a point source light, because of this reason, there is various level of light in the tank at various places. I like cube tank, very high light right under the bulb to keep my Magnifica anemone from moving and plenty of light for my SPS and clams even on the sand 20 to 24 inches from my 250 W MH (with a very good reflector). The point light source will also produce the shimmer effect that I love in a tank.

DE MH fixture is very small and leave my tank top very open to keep temperature down and great ventilation. My tank need no chiller with MH but will need one if I use a T5 base fixture that cover the tank. (93 g cube with single 250W MH)
My light is 10 inches above water level 250W DE MH with reflector, there is no salt creep or salt deposit on the glass of the light after about 8 months of use (lots of circulation in my tank with lots of water agitation). With T5 fixture, I always have to clean the light cover every few weeks or else the light output drastically decreased. After 8 months, My MH fixture is like new while a T5 fixture would be corroded, rusted and ....

I use Magnetic ballast for my MH which is essentially indestructibly and will function 10 years form now. I avoid electronic ballast due to this the possibility of it mal-function. You would be hard press to find an electronic ballast MH, T5, VHO or NO that still function after 10 years.

I like wide tank, 30 inches is my preferred width, so I use MH due to it being cheaper to start out with, produce the type of light that permit me to keep the tank better, look better more flexibility in keeping various animal in the tank. The light fixture (magnetic ballast) lasted much longer and bulb cost much cheaper to change. For me, MH is the number one and only choice. T5 is not even distance 2nd.

[neogenix]

I think it is a fallacy to say that 250 W MH produce more heat than 250 W T5. When one put 250 W/Hr for 10 hrs into a system, all of these energy will end up as heat, the same amount for MH as it is for T5. How efficient in lumen/ unit of energy of fluorescent (t5 is just a small tube florescent) vs. MH is debatable, but there is no arguing the fact that 250 W-hr input into a thermally isolated system will increase the temperature of that system by a specific amount whether you use a heater, or any type of light bulb because all of the light will end up as heat anyway in the end.

T5 vs MH bot can produce a lot of light but like any fluorescent lights, T5 bulbs need to be change every 6-8 months or so or else the light out put drastically decreases. MH need to be change every 18 months or so, the degradation is a lot less even at 18 months. The price of 250 W worth of T5 bulbs is high while the cost of one of the Chinese produced 250 W MH is less than 20 dollars with shipping, cheaper if I buy multiple bulbs. I can get 10 years of bulbs for the MH for a single change of T5 bulbs.

MH is a point source light, because of this reason, there is various level of light in the tank at various places. I like cube tank, very high light right under the bulb to keep my Magnifica anemone from moving and plenty of light for my SPS and clams even on the sand 20 to 24 inches from my 250 W MH (with a very good reflector). The point light source will also produce the shimmer effect that I love in a tank.

DE MH fixture is very small and leave my tank top very open to keep temperature down and great ventilation. My tank need no chiller with MH but will need one if I use a T5 base fixture that cover the tank. (93 g cube with single 250W MH)
My light is 10 inches above water level 250W DE MH with reflector, there is no salt creep or salt deposit on the glass of the light after about 8 months of use (lots of circulation in my tank with lots of water agitation). With T5 fixture, I always have to clean the light cover every few weeks or else the light output drastically decreased. After 8 months, My MH fixture is like new while a T5 fixture would be corroded, rusted and ....

I use Magnetic ballast for my MH which is essentially indestructibly and will function 10 years form now. I avoid electronic ballast due to this the possibility of it mal-function. You would be hard press to find an electronic ballast MH, T5, VHO or NO that still function after 10 years.

I like wide tank, 30 inches is my preferred width, so I use MH due to it being cheaper to start out with, produce the type of light that permit me to keep the tank better, look better more flexibility in keeping various animal in the tank. The light fixture (magnetic ballast) lasted much longer and bulb cost much cheaper to change. For me, MH is the number one and only choice. T5 is not even distance 2nd.

So very interesting comments, however there're two things I'd like to bring up. The first is that while yes, 250W is 250W, depending on the usage (for example 250W of LED would generate less heat than 250W of MH for the same volume of light, don't you think ?) may certainly generate the same heat, however you do not need 250W of T5 to create the same amount of light as a 250W MH from what I've seen so far. The second based on the information I've seen online is that you need to replace your bulbs on different schedules to the updates you've said :

T5 High Output (T5HO) - 9-18 months
Metal Halide - 9-12 months

That would mean that you'd need to replace the bulbs near the same amount, and for good quality bulbs on each, a single MH bulb can be anywhere up to 60+ dollars, excluding shipping. Sure I could get cheaper chinese knock off bulbs, but I'd not trust those lights above my tank, personally. Whereas the T5 bulbs are around 25 dollars each. Bringing the bulb replacement costs to near the same, if not a bit towards T5.

Very interesting comments though, and good note on the salt creep.

[Bill S]

Watts are watts. 250w of T5 will produce essentially the same heat as 250w of MH. The only energy not turned into heat, is either used and transformed by your corals/algae, or it leaks out in the form of light (out of the sides of the tank or from the canopy).

Let us not forget the First Law of Thermodynamics: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed...".

So, saying "250w of XXXX is hotter/cooler than 250w of YYYY..." makes no sense.

[neogenix]

Watts are watts. 250w of T5 will produce essentially the same heat as 250w of MH. The only energy not turned into heat, is either used and transformed by your corals/algae, or it leaks out in the form of light (out of the sides of the tank or from the canopy).

Let us not forget the First Law of Thermodynamics: "Energy is neither created nor destroyed...".

So, saying "250w of XXXX is hotter/cooler than 250w of YYYY..." makes no sense.

Ah, yes, sorry, maybe I worded that incorrectly. 250W of LED is a lot more light than 250W of MH, thus a comparable amount of light output would require a lot less power, and as such produce a lot less heat. Although, I do think that it's not entirely 1:1 on the heat thing...

[Bill S]

Ah, yes, sorry, maybe I worded that incorrectly. 250W of LED is a lot more light than 250W of MH, thus a comparable amount of light output would require a lot less power, and as such produce a lot less heat. Although, I do think that it's not entirely 1:1 on the heat thing...

What do you mean by "it's not entirely 1:1.."? Are you claiming that the 1st Law of Thermodynamics isn't exactly right? Seriously?

You can produce as much light as you want. When that light energy hits an object, that object either reflects the light, absorbs it (as HEAT), or it stores it (as do corals and algae). Of the total light you dump into a tank that part which is stored, is tiny. Very tiny. That light energy either escapes out of your tank/hood, or it becomes heat. That is simple physics.

Now, can LEDs produce more light per watt than a MH. Probably. HOWEVER, you started the discussion with "for example 250W of LED would generate less heat than 250W of MH for the same volume of light, don't you think" - which isn't entirely correct. If you put a 250w LED fixture on your tank and a 250w MH on your tank, you will generate similar amounts of heat to deal with. The only difference is that light which escapes out of your tank, and then out of your house through the windows. Remember, if it escapes your tank, almost all of that light will become heat in your house.

It's physics, not magic...

[neogenix]

yes, yes, I'm tired and can't type. You're right, I should've written 'the light output from a 250W equivalent LED system' or some such.

[OrionN]

Several things
1. LED is a lot more efficient that MH or florescent light, therefore, for the same amount of light out put LED use a lot less energy.
2. On the other hand T5 is just florescent light, the same technology we had for years. T5 technology is nothing new other than the smaller bulb size. The advantage of small size (T5 vs VHO or PC) bulb is better (smaller) reflectors. In order for the reflector to be any good it needs to be much bigger than the bulb or else the bulb itself will block a lot of the light.
2. When to replace the light, we all know from experience. I replace my MH bulbs at anywhere from 12-18 months. Some bulbs degraded faster than other. The Chinese knocks off bulbs are great. I used them for many years now and my corals, clams and anemones are dong just fine. I see no different in result from these bulbs from name brand bulbs. In fact these bulbs are much better than the stock bulbs that originally came with the fixture. Not one has exploded on me or any disaster befalls my tank after all these time. That is disaster due to bulb malfunction. I had plenty of disasters due to other causes.