Rice Rice Baby, du nu nu nu, nunununu

[ErikH]

Anyone following auroras thread? Anyone thinking about rice in a bag in your tank, rather than those EXPENSIVE bio-pellets
?
Giau brought up a good idea that he said aurora posted about putting the bag directly inside the skimmer. Im not too sure about that because of the excessive air.

So is anyone else going to try out the ol rice experiment? I hear borwn rice is better because it has less shtuff in it.

[aquasport24]

I will try it, always have a 20lbs laying around the house.

[ErikH]

We had alot of rice until the adapter for my RODI busted open. :( BTW, I cut all my tippers that was a burnin' off. I cut them back alot, so I hope they recover nicely. I need some more frags, so mess up that computer! :D

[Europhyllia]

Yeah the pellets are expensive but they last for a very long time and I can just run them and forget about them.
Not so with the rice.

It always surprises me how much money people are willing to sink into livestock, technology, etc. and then try to save a few bucks and be willing to put up with inconvenience and risk.

I just added the pellet reactor to my new DT Monday and I already got awesome bacteria growth and nitrate reduction so I am happy with what I got.
I started the DT and the QT at the same time and the values were pretty much the same all through the cycle until I added the reactor and now QT has nitrates 5 times higher than the pellet enhanced DT.

I don't think brown vs white makes a difference. You're just getting the hull in addition to the other stuff - which is quite a lot of other stuff you're adding there with rice (high phosphorus, starches, vitamins, etc.) If I wanted to dose phosphorous, starches and vitamins I'd do so on my terms (I decide what goes in and how much, etc.)

To quote someone from the thread:

Rice and Bio pellets are not the same thing at all. Biopellets are inert until bacteria releases the carbon source.Not new technology as water treatment plants have been using them for a long time.If you put Biopellets in a glass with no bacteria the polymers will not release carbon.Try that with rice and see what kind of mess you have in a week.The inherent problem with any carbon dosing is that the amount needed per system can be hard to gauge.With Biopellets there is a release control with rice there is none.And at 40.00 for a 5 month supply for a 100-150 gal tank it seems hard to understand why people would complicate such an easy phosphate and nitrate control.It's not tempting me in the least but I am happy if it works for you. :)

[aquasport24]

We had alot of rice until the adapter for my RODI busted open. :( BTW, I cut all my tippers that was a burnin' off. I cut them back alot, so I hope they recover nicely. I need some more frags, so mess up that computer! :D

Hopefully they all recover, if not you let me know.It's not that hard for me to add viruses to my puter......lol..

[ErikH]

Yeah the pellets are expensive but they last for a very long time and I can just run them and forget about them.
Not so with the rice.

It always surprises me how much money people are willing to sink into livestock, technology, etc. and then try to save a few bucks and be willing to put up with inconvenience and risk.

I just added the pellet reactor to my new DT Monday and I already got awesome bacteria growth and nitrate reduction so I am happy with what I got.
I started the DT and the QT at the same time and the values were pretty much the same all through the cycle until I added the reactor and now QT has nitrates 5 times higher than the pellet enhanced DT.

I don't think brown vs white makes a difference. You're just getting the hull in addition to the other stuff - which is quite a lot of other stuff you're adding there with rice (high phosphorus, starches, vitamins, etc.) If I wanted to dose phosphorous, starches and vitamins I'd do so on my terms (I decide what goes in and how much, etc.)

To quote someone from the thread:
It's not tempting me in the least but I am happy if it works for you. :)

As others have stated it is important to wash the rice, which inevitably is covered in stuff since it is natural. That's what carbon, gfo, and protein skimmers are for. Run them alongside rice and whamo. Also waste treatment plants have also used rice husks. Sure there is likely to be other things in rice, but plastics leach some nasty stuff as well. I imagine that's why they need to be changed out frequently. There are subtle nuances all over in this hobby, and this could definitely be one of those. 2<100 and in my book that's a good thing.

I think the husks in brown rice are important, they are proven technology. Most of the stuff thats in rice is negated by the bacteria that consumes it, or the GFO, or the carbon, or the skimmer.

In all honesty though, I am skeptical too. We all are, and I can only parrot what I read from threads, I can't breakdown all of the chemical reactions, etc. One of the guys stated that he was a chemist, and most chemistry goes right over a chemists head. That being said, we're kind of moronic to think we, as non chemists, could possibly understand everything in regards to water quality.

I am still rinsing my foods, and am going back to my two day feeding regimen. Soon I will be slightly increasing my GFO and adding carbon back into my system for the first time in months. I need to stabilize and starve my tank, and slowly build from there to increase the natural bacteria to help balance out and stabilize my system. Only once it is stable could i really get any accurate readings to try and prove that it would work. The guys on RC aren't exactly scientists, just hobbiests trying something new.

You have to remember that my tank is running on tap and has been since my coupler EXPLODED in my wash room, and in my face, first thing in the morning. I am unorthodoxed in some ways, but I understand that it's all about controlled chaos. Each and every tank/strategy is completely situational.

[Kristy]

Hey Vanilla Rice-
I know nothing about this Aurora thread or this new theory of filtering with a bag of rice, but I now have a certain song stuck in my head, thanks to you!

[Europhyllia]

Sure there is likely to be other things in rice, but plastics leach some nasty stuff as well. I imagine that's why they need to be changed out frequently.

I lost you on this one (, Vanilla Rice lol).
When you say plastics in this context do you mean the pellets? They're not being changed out at all. They are eaten up by the bacteria so after 6 months or so you have less pellets in the reactor than you had before. You don't take out the old pellets and replace them with new ones. You top them off with more pellets.
I think when manufacturing a plastic it's much easier to control what the components are than growing rice.

I think aurora mentioned she has no idea how the high (natural) phosphorus content of rice (not added and not anything that you can rinse off) affects the balance of bacteria consumption because she hasn't tested the phosphates and isn't planning to. That seems to make her 'test' results a little unreliable.

I wasn't trying to stop you at all. I took your initial post as: "have you been reading aurora's thread and would you use her approach?" so I was just answering that. :)

By the way as far as brown vs white goes: seems like brown rice has almost 3 times the amount of phosphorus as white rice. If I wanted rice in my tank I'd probably choose white instead of brown because more of the unwanted/unknown stuff has been stripped off.

[Europhyllia]

was looking around some more and found this great summary on several different DIY options as far as soliud carbon sources goes:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1883610&highlight=biopellets

Polyhydroxyalkanoate (PHA):

Information:
Speculated to be the main component of commercial NP Biopellets (Reference #1).

PRO:
- Many successful cases using PHA (NP Biopellets) in controlling NO3/PO4.

CON:
- Expensive, about $99 per 1000mL of commercial NP Biopellets.
- Very hard to find sources of PHA except commercial products, which is expensive.

Polycaprolactone (PCL):

Information:
Confirmed to be the main component of Instant Ocean's Nitrate Reducer.

Reefers here on RC using PCL:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1830864
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1766100
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17382991

PRO:
- Completely bio-degradable by bacteria, and provide a carbon source similar to PHA. (Reference #1)
- Some commercial biopellets for reef aquarium are also using PCL. (Reference #1)
- Less expensive compared to PHA, many alternative products can be found, such as "Friendly Plastic Pellets".
- PCL pellets can be bought for about $22-30 per 1kg from various internet sites, even from China.

CON:
- Compared to PHA, there's still very limited information on how successful PCL can control NO3/PO4 in reef aquariums
(If any of you have successfully controlled NO3/PO4 using PLA as biopellet alternative, please share your story with us!)

Polylactic Acid (PLA):

Information:
Basically these are degradable plastic (polymers) derived from corn starch and sugercanes. (Reference #2)

In fact we've a reefer here on RC who'd DIY'ing these polymers from corn starch. (Reference #3)

Studies on waste water processing have shown that PLA with corn starch at 10% weight content receive the best nitrate reduction effects. (Reference #1)

PRO:
- Commercial PLA are relatively cheap.
- Can be DIY from corn starch with some effort.

CON:
- Slow decomposition rate (Reference #4), meaning it could take just too long for the starch to be released from the polymer form into the water.
- Not much information on how effective PLA can be use to control NO3/PO4 in reef aquariums.
(Again please share your story with us if you've successfully used PLA as alternative biopellets)

Granular starch (rice, wheat and corn):

Information:

Just the everyday grain that you consume in meals.

Referring to PLA above, the optimal % of weight content of starch to be used is about 10%, meaning if you were putting in 100g of commercial biopellets in your reef system, you should be using 10g of granular starch or else you could be overdosing carbon source.

Reefers here on RC using granular starch:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1874551
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1878307

PRO:
- They're CHEAP and readily available in grocery stores.
- Studies showed that granular starches are proven means to provide carbon source for denitrification in waste water processing as well as recirculating aquaculture systems (RAS).

CON:
- Unknown effect on minerials released into water column.
- Relatively high phosphrous content that could shift towards a Nitrogen limited environment.
- Inconsistant rate of decompose means it could release too much carbon into the water.

[ErikH]

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[ErikH]

Mods please delete this thread. I am done with it.