How about a hobbyist sponsor spot?

[Europhyllia]

Looks like we have lots of talented Maastards that earn their living with non-reef stuff but offer handmade aquarium things on a small scale.
Would it be possible to offer them some kind of advertising opportunity at reduced rates?
Maybe a by subscription forum for DIY for sale items and services?
There would be no banner ads, no dedicated forum, etc. but a shared forum where each of the small scale hobbyists could have one thread advertising their service or products?
Not sure what a good fee would be or how full scale advertisers would feel about this but thought I'd throw the idea out there.

I am so glad I got my super Ace sump before he stopped making them and Bigbird's stands look so nice. Seems like Reefone does some really nice work with acrylic, etc.
Lots of talent and nowhere to advertise it without violating spam rules.
Maybe we should consider offering some kind of legal outlet for all these small services?

[BIGBIRD123]

Karin, it is REEFONE that does the acrylic.

[Europhyllia]

You're right. I changed it.
Maybe I should add a poll?
Maybe it's such a bad idea even a poll won't matter.
Any thoughts at all?

[robalv]

why not leave it as is... word of mouth works wonders and some use the funds to supplement there addictions.....lol

[Europhyllia]

why not leave it as is
because so often it comes really close to violating the spam rule and as a moderator I really hate having to PM people to tell them you can't post so and so.
I'd much rather PM them and say: you can't do this but you can do that! lol

I bet a lot of times the customers that could provide word of mouth don't read threads in time either. For example as a new member I didn't know Ace did acrylic work. If somebody hadn't mentioned that I could contact him about acrylic work I would have totally missed out!

I think making a special place for those hobbyist services could benefit everybody:

* most importantly the mods of course because we don't constantly have to discuss if rules might be violated with what action
* the hobbyists offering services because their services can now easily be found
* the hobbyists looking for services because they can now easily find them
* the club because it would provide a small source of income (I was thinking of maybe $50 per year for a thread in the hobby services forum so nothing major)

If we legalize it we can regulate it and tax it. We can post clear rules and there would be less gray areas.

[txg8gxp]

I think it sounds like a good idea, In my opinion most would want a banner ad to get more attention...but if not a cheaper sponsorship would be a good idea. I think it would be a great way to help Maast and custom builders.

[Europhyllia]

well if anybody wanted the whole banner/extra forum thing nobody would prevent them from buying a regular sponsor spot! :D

This was just a low cost option for those people that do some projects for hire but don't do it for a living -hence would appreciate a listing so people can find them but don't want to fork out the 250 for regular sponsorship.

Because the price is so much less than what regular sponsors pay I would think it also should include less of teh perks such as banner ads, etc. so not to make it unfair to our regular sponsors.

[txg8gxp]

I think it's a great idea. You have my vote.

[jroescher]

This has been discussed a bunch of times in past. The problem is defining where the line is, and trying to police it. There's so many differing opinions of what constitutes a business and what is a hobby. And the last thing we want is MAAST trying to investigate people to determine if they have licenses and tax certificates or store fronts somewhere.

If you can come up with a simple way of drawing a clear line, I'm all for it.

[BIGBIRD123]

I do not think it is a good idea. It will be a wrong message to sponsors. I am not understanding and clear where this would be considered spam. This has been done by members for the 6 yrs I have been involved with Maast and nothing was done about it. There has been several members that have made thousands as the rules are now. Where would it end. There are members that frag on a very regular basis....would they be included in this also? What about all the "new" members that have come here to sell off their stuff in our "open" for sale forum? Maybe we need to hear from some Sponsors and their opinion. They pay well for the rights they get...

[robalv]

Just like Government everyone is trying to make a buck off someone else's skills it happens in my field of work also, This drives the cost's of doing business so the cost of the product goes up so what was a great deal in the beginning is no longer a great deal, You now can get that same deal anywhere.. JMO

[CoryDude]

Karin, I like the idea in principal, but I have to agree with Steve. This would send the wrong message to some of the great sponsors we have here. A lot of these guys are scrapping by right now, and any attempt to syphon off more sales would be seen as an insult.

This site has kind of turned into a flea market with the explosion of for sale forum posts, and I'd hate to see it get any further diluted.

[Europhyllia]

Just like Government everyone is trying to make a buck off someone else's skills it happens in my field of work also, This drives the cost's of doing business so the cost of the product goes up so what was a great deal in the beginning is no longer a great deal, You now can get that same deal anywhere.. JMO

I don't understand this comment

It's called advertising. Businesses or hobbyists can choose to advertise. If anybody does choose to advertise then they pay a fee. What's so weird about that?

For my own business (totally not reef related and no longer a hobby thing) I pay to be in a similar directory/forum listing and it gets me tons of new business. That's what advertising is for. I happily pay the small annual $50 fee for all the traffic I get from it.

My suggestion was meant as a perk to users, advertisers, etc.

Obviously if neither the users nor the potential advertisers see any benefit in this type of offering we don't even have to discuss it anymore.

[Europhyllia]

A lot of these guys are scrapping by right now, and any attempt to syphon off more sales would be seen as an insult.

Got ya and agree. I didn't realize we had sponsor stores that offered those type of custom made services so I didn't see the conflict.

So how do you suggest we handle the unstructured advertising that's already going on? (since it would have the same effect on the sponsors, right?)

[BIGBIRD123]

We really don't do anything because it has been going on for years with no ill effects and basically no complaints from sponsors. To me it would start a snowball and no way to secure a realistic set of guidelines to encompass the whole ball of wax.

Just for a start, let's talk about me. I was contacted to make a couple of stands. We posted pictures of the build just as any other persons build, nothing anywhere saying that I was in business to build custom work. Everything was handled by PM or email, just as our conversations about yours. This has been going on like this for years without repercussions. Now if I posted something in my signature that said...."BIGBIRD'S CUSTOM WOODWORKS AND ACRYLICS", there is a problem. Anything less than that is minor and should not be considered a business. Most of us are just trying to off-set tank maintenance expenses.

[jrsatx20]

Ace can u build me a sump and a carbon reactor.

[Europhyllia]

We really don't do anything because it has been going on for years with no ill effects and basically no complaints from sponsors.
Ah see one of the first experiences I had here shortly after joining was being reported for violating spam rules when I offered something I made at that time as one of the options in a 'wanted to buy' thread. I listed it as one of the options of things I was offering for trade.
It definitely wasn't anything that would compete with any of the sponsor stores either.

My idea was meant to give more freedom and options to people.
If people don't find this type of service beneficial though I am not married to the idea. lol

Got no skills to advertise myself so I am not missing out by not having this implemented. Totally okay by me. :)

Carry on. Forget I even mentioned it ;)

[CoryDude]

Karin,

I hope my last post didn't come off as sounding like we should limit peoples abilities on here, just because of the sponsors. If the members you mentioned fabricate better products than we can get from a sponsor, then more power to them. When I first starting coming to this site, you couldn't mention building a sump or fuge without Hobogato's name in the same sentence. Working for a small family business has shown me that word of mouth beats almost any form of advertising out there.

Here's a couple of things to amend your idea:

1) Maybe some of members could make arrangements with the sponsors to sell their products through them. I know Dan sells sumps through just about every lfs here in town. The sponsors get a little cut for the referal and he gets the sale.

2) Maybe a few of our members could form a co-op and set up a regular sponsorship account together.

I apoligize if I came across as poo-pooing your idea.

[Europhyllia]

LOL
Hey guys. No need to apologize. :)
One thing I wanted to clarify is that all of this has nothing to do with my position as a mod. The BOD had no input on my idea or anything.

My degree is in marketing so my brain is always looking for ways to market stuff. ;)

This idea was strictly based on my own very good experience with small forum based specialty directories similar to the one I was suggesting.
Three years ago I was just piddling around in my dining room with a hobby. No ad budget but I took the plunge and got a directory listing similar to the one I was suggesting.
Only a couple of years later I now have retailers as far away as Indonesia carry my product. I think that's pretty darn cool.
We're small town so even my mail lady still gets excited with me when we add new countries. Just last week we had our first shipment to Iceland.

This low cost advertising has worked fantastically well for me. It pays for my hobbies. It pays for the contributions to my kids' 529 accounts, etc.

So I figured I share my wealth by making this suggestion.

It really was more of a spur of the moment: 'hey this has worked great for me, maybe others can use it too!' sort of thing

No higher ups were involved in this (or even asked for their thoughts on it ;) )

So y'all don't lose sleep over this. I used to get paid for my marketing expertise/ideas and you guys got it totally for free!

But if it's not something that would be of interest or work well here I can totally live without it.

Good Night :)

[jroescher]

I would really like to see members able to post their talents. That's what this is all about, sharing everybody's knowledge, talents, ideas, etc... But when it comes to who can advertise what, it gets really complicated and some people get really offended.

I think the definition of a Sponsor needs some serious thought and consideration. I agree with targeted advertising, but not exclusive advertising.

But in the end, we have to pay the bills.

[tony]

im with karin, there is no reason why we couldnt have a smaller fee for non-marine related stuff also. the kid that made the custom pens here is a perfect example. he wasnt hurting any sponsors. same as eric offering computer services. even heb sponsored us at one point. . .

as far as hobby related, it isnt hard to figure out who is trying to make a living selling livestock here. most are not even here anymore.

[Mr Cob]

im with karin, there is no reason why we couldnt have a smaller fee for non-marine related stuff also. the kid that made the custom pens here is a perfect example. he wasnt hurting any sponsors. same as eric offering computer services. even heb sponsored us at one point. . .


^we do have a non-marine related commercial sponsorship which is less than the other types of sponsorship. It's what ErikH is under.

[allan]

as far as hobby related, it isnt hard to figure out who is trying to make a living selling livestock here. most are not even here anymore.

I think it may be easy to tell in some instances, but far too difficult to see in most cases without a Gestapo-like mod squad "harrasing" members over real or percieved violations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Europhyllia]

I am not pushing this idea anymore but I wanted to clarify:
I actually don't see why we would need to evaluate how much they make.

You purchase the full ad package and you get:
banner ads, dedicated forum, listing in the sponsor shop directory - that's a great value and lots of exposure

You purchase the small ad package and you get:
a thread in the shared hobbyist sponsor forum

Sell 1 widget, sell 50000 widgets ... it really doesn't matter. The full ad package is the better and more comprehensive deal but for those that want to participate but can't afford it the small ad package is an option. Easy as that. Done on/in gazillions of places all the time.

Haven't seen anything that would promise -implied or expressed- any exclusive advertising rights to sponsor stores. If I opened AquaEuro here on the Southside and mailed in my check for full sponsorship I am pretty certain MAAST would accept it even if I sold products similar to other fish stores.

Would the current sponsor stores feel less infringed upon if the members advertised their services for free? Doubt it. In fact as a sponsor it would make me feel better to know that my (preceived?) competitor has to pay for the exposure as well.

The fee is structured by how comprehensive the ad package is. Easy peasy.

No need to drive by anybody's house to see how many widgets they're really cranking out...

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

Since it appears that MAAST is looking to increase their revenue, why not also add a fee to those who sell in the "For Sale" forum...whether it is a one time sale, or multiple. Just like Ebay, you pay a percentage whether the sale is a completed transaction or incomplete. I am sure with the open "For Sale" forum, as it stands....no rules/limitations, MAAST could potentially make hundreds a week.
I thought we (MAAST) was once targeting NON PROFIT, but as it seems, as an outsider looking in, it is nothing but making a profit. I see no "Frivolous" spending on events or gatherings; giving back to the MAAST Members.

[Europhyllia]

Okey doke: once more ;)
the BOD has not approved this message. The idea is completely mine. I don't even know if MAAST, the organization and its officers, would find this option feasible, attractive, doable or whatever.

I felt that offering a low cost advertising opportunity could be something good for people trying to get the word out about their skills.

Here's why I (me personally and nobody else) thought charging a fee for this would be a good idea:

* it would limit participation to those that are serious about their craft giving the specialty forum more value as a real resource for people looking for a service to be performed (rather than having 3872 people posting about that their cousin would like to mow lawns and us buyers having to search through gazoodles of listings)

* it would require GM to spend his time setting up a new forum and subscription deal

* it would give a small income to MAAST that could be used in reaching our education goals, etc. I am guessing all these events, speakers, venues, etc. aren't free

* it would make it more fair to advertisers/sponsors that have purchased the 'big' sponsor ad pack

Honestly I don't know why this is so upsetting to people. I thought offering an option, an opportunity like this would be of benefit for both buyers as well as sellers.

Obviously nobody would be forced to participate. It's like you can buy the Big Mac Supersize Meal, or you can buy just a JR burger, or you can choose to not get anything at all. Don't like it? Don't buy it!

And just to make sure this is understood:
I had an idea. I thought it was a good idea. I thought lots of people on here could benefit from it. I didn't ask anybody before I posted this here for their input or permission. There's no need to wonder if this is some money making scheme from the MAAST organization because the organization had no input on this.

[FireWater]

Karin, I think it was a good idea and look forward to valid input and discussion on the topic. I think it could be a great opportunity for folks to get their name out. I applaud small business owners like Carl and Erik for taking the chance on advertisement and hopefully the pay offs it will bring them. I know there are several folks on this site that have tremendous talents that are related to our field and can offer products that may not be readily available at the LFS or can not be customized/modified as a buyer would like. Hopefully other members will be able to add their ideas and discuss the pros and cons of your idea.

[Europhyllia]

Thanks John. I think you understand what my idea was about.

There's seems to be great focus right now on having something taken away.

My small ad package proposal is strictly focused on offering an option that hasn't been available before.

It has nothing to do with the enforcement of TOU. There's no proposed amendment to the TOU. Nothing would change there. The TOU will find enforcement just as it does now.

Just like the regular sponsor spots though the small sponsor spots would allow users certain things that wouldn't be okay to do under the regular TOU.

The idea was to offer greater freedom in advertising for people who wanted to do this -not less.

Anybody not interested in this small sponsor spot would have the same rights they have now.

[jroescher]

I'm all for it, but I feel like arguing.

Still need to define where the line is between a hobbyist and someone who is only posing as a hobbyist.

For example, a discussion about stands and Steve replies that he can build you one. Where would that fall. Or a sump and someone else replies that Ace can do that. Or that Ace or ReefOne can do it. Does only one get to reply?

Another issue that came up in the past is a store owner wanting to sell his personal stuff. From his home. Wasn't store inventory, but I suspect that it was at one time.

[Europhyllia]

John are you referring to the sponsor thing now or the TOU?

To me hobbyist status wouldn't even matter in regards to the small sponsor ad package. If Fosters&Smith wants to just purchase a $50 spot fine with me. The spot costs less and is less comprehensive than the big sponsor package. Less cost, less exposure. You get what you pay for.

As far as TOU goes I'll let the experts speak on that. ;)

[roscozman]

No higher ups were involved in this (or even asked for their thoughts on it ;) )

So y'all don't lose sleep over this. I used to get paid for my marketing expertise/ideas and you guys got it totally for free!





Since it appears that MAAST is looking to increase their revenue, why not also add a fee to those who sell in the "For Sale" forum...whether it is a one time sale, or multiple. Just like Ebay, you pay a percentage whether the sale is a completed transaction or incomplete. I am sure with the open "For Sale" forum, as it stands....no rules/limitations, MAAST could potentially make hundreds a week.
I thought we (MAAST) was once targeting NON PROFIT, but as it seems, as an outsider looking in, it is nothing but making a profit. I see no "Frivolous" spending on events or gatherings; giving back to the MAAST Members.

Cheri - I don't see how you can come up with your first statement when Karin clearly states she came up with this idea completely on her own. You post has a passive-aggressive tone to which Karin was only offering a suggestion on this "Questions, Comment & Suggestions" Feedback Forum. She has also previously stated that she does not want to get involved in the drama on this site.

Karin - I applaud your enthusiasm for this hobby and this web site. Keep 'em coming...

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

Cheri - I don't see how you can come up with your first statement when Karin clearly states she came up with this idea completely on her own. You post has a passive-aggressive tone to which Karin was only offering a suggestion on this "Questions, Comment & Suggestions" Feedback Forum. She has also previously stated that she does not want to get involved in the drama on this site.

Karin - I applaud your enthusiasm for this hobby and this web site. Keep 'em coming...

I assure you my tone was not passive-aggressive as you state, Ross, I was merely adding a suggestion, just as Karin had previously done. I applaud those who are engaged in MAAST and want to continue to see the growth and success of the organization. It is Members like Karin, who truly want to make a difference in this club.

[txmike]

I think this is a great idea .What would it take to get this put up for a vote??