DSB or Miracle Mud; Setting up first refugium

[CoryDude]

I'm going to go away with or reduce my Hiatt bacteria filter and thought about going for a more natural filtration route on my 90 sps tank. Any advice is appreciated.

I've got a spare 29 gallon that I want to add to my existing sump and use as a refugium. Initial thoughts are:

1) drill the tank for 1" overflow drain
2) I've got a spare adjustable eheim that can feed the fuge at a rate of 50-150gph
3) Light it was a double t-12 fixture or 2 t-5's for 24/7 since I want to use caulerpa
4) 1" or 1.5" or miracle mud
5) Grow different caulerpas, cheato, and mangroves
6) Utilize the return from the fuge to feed an algae turf scrubber (thanks to Mike and Kristy for that idea)

Is the mud worth the price? Should I stick with a standard dsb or a shallower oolite sand bed. Am I missing anything else?

[Europhyllia]

I'd skip the caulerpa so that you can go with a reverse light cycle - potential for a beneficial effect on your daily pH swing

[Big_Pun]

i run a bare bottom fuge, with just cheato and mangroves but i really havent seen any growth in my mangroves in 5 months, but they are alive. give me a call sometime if you want more help or you can swing by again and look at my sump. i run my on a reg light cycle with my main light, sometimes 24 hours for couple days(only light not on a timer, till my RKL comes in today)

[FireWater]

I don't think that the price of the miracle muds warrant their use. You could always ask a LFS if you could scoop the crud off the bottom of their live rock tanks.
I always used the same substrate what was in my main display so I don't know if it was beneficial or not. I do agree with the reverse light cycle though.

[Neptune@gabesfish]

Cory come in and we can talk too much to put in writing..

[Ping]

One inch of sugar fine sand and caulerpa lit on a 24 hour cycle is a great fuge system. Miracle Mud is a great product but pricey and not necessary. Also you need to follow the directions on the Miracle Mud website.

An algae turf or waterfall scrubber will negate the need for nutrient removal by higher forms of algae in a fuge. A no light (cryptic) fuge (live rock and rubble) will provide excellent filtration and plankton production when mature.

The fuge should not flow into the scrubber as some of the plankton will die as the water passes over the screen. They should be independent systems flowing directly into the display tank. If this is not possible, they should flow independently into the sump.

[CoryDude]

Gabe - I've been trying to get over to your place to yak about this. I'll try and swing by tonight. Oh crud, you're getting a shipment tonight, so it's going to cost me.

Ping- Hoping you might offer some ideas. I didn't consider the plankton loss if utilizing an ats fed by the fuge. Thanks.

I've been getting info from Ecosystems website on using the mud and I'm kind of balking at the price.

What about going with 2 compartments on the tank? One dark side w/rubble and one 12 hr lighted side w/macro (no caulerpa).

[FireWater]

If you split the fuge into 2 portions would that negate benefits? Would one larger - which ever way you decide to set it up - have better capabilities to filter?

[CoryDude]

The tank is 36" long. I could do a 2/3 split and use 24" for the algae area and have a 12" blackened off section filled w/rock and rubble.

[FireWater]

Possibly. I was just thinking that on my sump/fuge under the 90 is set up that way. My drain from the main tank comes into the 1st chamber where I have rock and rubble with no light then flows through a couple more chambers and finally to the fuge before the pump. The 1st chamber receives no light but, has high flow and I have all kinds of fans and sponges growing in there.

If you want any sand or mangroves let me know. My tank is still not back up and running but, I have kept the fuge going so everything in it is still alive.

[Ping]

Sponges are the best natural filtration, hence the cryptic fuge. The two stage fuge sounds good.

Are you still considering the Algae Waterfall Scrubber? I was very happy with mine as I had almost completely eliminated the Asparagasum algae that had plagued my last system before I sold it.

This natural filtration takes time to develop, especially the sponges. Don’t be lured into the latest fad in water quality or ionic balance maintenance. Too many people get upset at the first sign of hair algae or cyano, rush out and purchase the latest snake oil or hop on the latest band wagon concept on the internet aimed at maintaining a healthy aquarium.

Most systems take a few months for the filtering life forms to reach equilibrium with changes to the system. e.g. new system, additional fish load, increased feeding, etc. With patience you are on your way to a system that will find its equilibrium and ionic balance.

As far as pH, most people don’t worry about night / day cycles. As long as the Alkalinity is high, the pH will be fine. Especially now that we have good flow and O2, CO2 exchange in our displays.

18 hours is a good length of time to light Cheatomorpha, but running the lights with the main lighting cycle works very well. RDP does help a little bit if Alk is not maintained, but many households are not conducive to the evening lights.

[Europhyllia]

I thought this article was interesting specifically this part:

Photosynthesis of Algae in Continuous Light vs. Light/Dark Cycles
Interestingly, three marine microalgae, Skeletonema costatum, Phaeocystis globosa and Emiliania huxleyi,24 were studied for their rates of photosynthesis and carbon uptake mechanisms in continuous light vs. those same species in light/dark cycles (12 h on/12 h off and 16 h on/8 h off). The rates of photosynthesis were nearly twice as high with light/dark cycles as with continuous lighting. In two of the species (S. costatum and E. huxleyi), but not the third, the contribution of bicarbonate to the total carbon uptake increased dramatically in light/dark cycles compared to continuous light.
How this result might relate to growth and nutrient uptake in lit refugia where macroalgae are often grown to export nutrients is not known. However, it is a sign that perhaps continuous light is not optimal, in addition to being more expensive.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-10/rhf/index.php

[ErikH]

6" sandbed and pack the rest with rock It worked wonders on my 75, I am going back to that style setup. I just cleaned out my 29 and reinstalled it under my 200. I have always ran slow flow through it, and I also have a skimmer in it. It may sound crazy that I just put it all in a tank, no baffles or anything, but the proof was in the pudding. That tank was pretty much unstoppable! Ireally enjoyed how simple of a setup it was, so emulating it is all I can think to do again. To me all of the excessive baffles and stuff just take away space. Pack your return under some rocks and you won't need a prefilter either. Clean it every 8-12 months and clear any tiny snails or rocks that may have gotten caught in it. You can even hollow out some space for macro. Sincerely I felt it was better than anything else I have tried to do, and with less maintenance. K.I.S.S. :D :D

[kkiel02]

Thats the motto for my 180 sump-K.I.S.S. I have one reactor for media going and a skimmer but that's it. I would like to expand on a good point Peter said - A refugium will only get better as time passes. Sponges and macro grow, absorbing nutrients. Dsb start denitrification and the pod populations start to grow/stabilize. I'm going to try a dsb on the new tank for the first time so we will see how I like it.
Ps I'm a big believer in phosban though az it has helped to control many nuisance altars in my tank.

[CoryDude]

Depending on nutrient export Ping, I may do both a fuge and ATS. I'd gone with a Berlin system for many years, but started to have problems with nutrient buildup. The Hiatt fixed that problem, but maybe too well. May initial idea was a fuge with a denitrifying mud bed and plants to intake excess nitrogen. If there's still an issue with excess nutrients, then I would add a turf scrubber.

After seeing so many beautiful tanks that use refugiums and little else, I can't ignore the call any more. Thanks for the mangrove and cheato offers. I'lupdate and add pics as I get this project rolling.

[ErikH]

Lol at your quote

[FireWater]

After seeing so many beautiful tanks that use refugiums and little else, I can't ignore the call any more. Thanks for the mangrove and cheato offers. I'lupdate and add pics as I get this project rolling.

Yes, please do. I am researching the scrubber idea after hearing Ping talk about it. I admit I had no idea what it is. Would love to see it as well as other ideas on fuge set ups. I like mine the way it is set up now and follows the simple prototype but, new ideas never hurt.

[Big_Pun]

ok heres some pics of my fuge(dirty), i keep sps, softies, lps, couple diff macros in my display on one side and yes you can keep culerpa without it taking over the display, keep in sand and in low light. my system also has alot of sponges on dark sides of live rock. i also keep 2 bags of chemi pure elite in the fuge, with hermits that keep detris from collecting on the bottom.

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu357/stangchris/CIMG3819.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu357/stangchris/CIMG3817.jpg