The future of LED

[Europhyllia]

So (Stephen and everybody else ...lol) what do you foresee happening with LEDs in the aquarium hobby?
How soon will the price come down? Any new developments already in the works by some manufacturers or just an increase in manufacturing efficiency and refinement of current technology on the horizon?
Why are they so dang expensive?

[txg8gxp]

They are alot of money because or R&D. Yes, they will become cheaper...but not for us. Because there will alway be new better emitter on the marker, and of course we will want the best :) I believe led's will cause MH's to extinct. Just my opinion of course

[Europhyllia]

anybody even offering 60" or 72" inch LED fixtures yet?
They are pretty directional, right? So several LED pendants might not be as great coverage wise as one single fixture?

[txg8gxp]

Led's are 120 degree without lenses, that is why we want lenses to lower the angle and up the par. I have falling in love with the new geisemann t5 led hood, it looks amazing. There are not many good production fixtures out yet. The only ones I would buy are AI and Geisemann

[Europhyllia]

Oh nice. Honestly the Geisemann looks kind of disappointing compared to the AI.
Look at that!
http://premiumaquatics.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PA&Product_Code=AI-C2D0011&Category_Code=AquaIllumination
1. Superior Performance - Capable of producing as much light as a 400W metal halide system.
2. Save Energy - Up to 50% versus comparable metal halide system.
3. Low Heat - Generates a fraction of the heat of a comparable metal halide system.
4. Long Lamp Life - Up to 10 years.
5. Multi-Functional - Sunrise, daylight, sunset and lunar light cycles all included.
6. Upgradeable - Modular design allows end user to increase the length of the fixture or to install the latest in LED lamp technology.

Automatic sunrise, sunset and lunar cycles would be lovely! Got to remember that the next time I have 3k laying around...

[ramsey]

AI has a 72" fixture. It's modular though.

I see the future of LED being over my tank within the next month. :P I have an order in for an AI fixture. It's been on order for a month and I'm still waiting. While they're expensive, I talked myself into it when I figured up how much it would cost to do MH's, T5's and moonlights. Then I factored in replacing bulbs every year. I came up with about 2-3 years before breaking even. That doesn't include money saved on electricity.

[ramsey]

Oh, the other thing is, I went with 4 modules and a 5' rail. I did this because I don't think you need a 72" over a 6' tank. The reason I say this is because they recommend one for every 30". Also, I don't really have anything 6" on either side. I was able to get the 5' rail to allow me to adjust them more. It will also allow for another module if I need one.

And yes, I looked at the Geisemann and was disappointed. No telling how much they're going to charge for that thing either. I haven't seen anything from Geisemann that I thought was worth the money. Maybe I'm just cheap though.

[Europhyllia]

ramsey did you read the review under the 72" fixture I posted? Sounds like the coverage is much smaller than 30" and even the 72" fixture has some 'dark areas'.
Looking forward to seeing your custom set up!

[phippsj]

There is a great DIY thread on Reef Central. It is essentially $300 for every 24 x 24 area lit. For me that is $900 to cover my entire tank. I will take this on in a few months and see. For me, $900 in lighting is not bad. My Halide/T5 combo right now has to be $600, so what is an extra $300? No bulb changes, etc, will make this a cost saving effort in 1 year.

[rabadanmarco]

anyone know about any 5t tubes with LED's in them

[ramsey]

I did read the review. First, this review seems to be on the gen1 fixtures. They're using new lenses so the light spread is supposedly greater. The first gen said 24", now they're saying 30". Also, the person reviewing the lights was using the legs and not the hanging kit. They complained that with the legs, the fixtures were too close to the water. I'm going to be using the hanging kit. My thought is, the higher I hang them over the tank, the more light dispersal I'll get. They told me 4-6 weeks so we shall know soon enough!

[Europhyllia]

There is a great DIY thread on Reef Central. It is essentially $300 for every 24 x 24 area lit. For me that is $900 to cover my entire tank. I will take this on in a few months and see. For me, $900 in lighting is not bad. My Halide/T5 combo right now has to be $600, so what is an extra $300? No bulb changes, etc, will make this a cost saving effort in 1 year.
Wow. That's great. Be sure to share how this turns out!
How much more for automatic sunsets,sunrise, etc?

[Europhyllia]

I did read the review. First, this review seems to be on the gen1 fixtures. They're using new lenses so the light spread is supposedly greater. The first gen said 24", now they're saying 30". Also, the person reviewing the lights was using the legs and not the hanging kit. They complained that with the legs, the fixtures were too close to the water. I'm going to be using the hanging kit. My thought is, the higher I hang them over the tank, the more light dispersal I'll get. They told me 4-6 weeks so we shall know soon enough!
exiting! let me know how this turns out.
what are the dimensions of your tank by the way?

I love my hanging fixture -wouldn't go back to klutzy legs either...

[txg8gxp]

Wow, this thread is growing quick. The AI fixture with a GHL contoller is my dream setup at the moment, the pour fish though...I would be running none stop thunderstorms.

[ramsey]

There is a great DIY thread on Reef Central. It is essentially $300 for every 24 x 24 area lit. For me that is $900 to cover my entire tank. I will take this on in a few months and see. For me, $900 in lighting is not bad. My Halide/T5 combo right now has to be $600, so what is an extra $300? No bulb changes, etc, will make this a cost saving effort in 1 year.

I thought about going DIY but I'm a lazy man. I also didn't want to build a canopy (again, lazy). I may do one in my 12g nano though.


anyone know about any 5t tubes with LED's in them

The only one that I know of is the IceCap moonlight. It's pretty awesome from what I hear but it's for moonlights only. There's also a company coming out with LED CF's. Essentially, they connect to your CF base but are actually a series of LEDs. Can't wait to see more on this.

[ramsey]

exiting! let me know how this turns out.
what are the dimensions of your tank by the way?

I love my hanging fixture -wouldn't go back to klutzy legs either...

I will let you know and I'll post some pictures. The other thing you have to consider is that I have a single 250w MH and a 3' or 4' CF fixture over the tank now. Pretty dim, I know.

My tank is 6' long, 29" deep and it' a bowfront which is 2' at its widest.

Yeah, a hung fixture looks so much nicer IMO (don't even go there you dirty minded folk).

[Bill S]

Just proceed cautiously...

We have a MAAST member who adopted an AI fixture a couple of years ago. I don't think he's been all that happy with it and the support.

I seriously looked at LEDs for my tank 3 years ago, and then again 2 years ago. It was and still is too much of a leap of faith for me. I bought a chiller instead.

[acropoorer]

I agree with Bill. I did add some blue LEDs (crazy moonlight and more blue) and may add more of the 3 watt Cree blues some day to replace my T12's (when I have time to diy), but for wide spectrum daylight I am sticking with MH and my chiller.

[phippsj]

The case for LED is getting more compelling. Aside from the money, the DIY projects done at ReefCentral have also reported better coral coloration including SPS.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1587273


Here is a video of his tank over a year ago when he first got the lighting done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqfxfqJ4QZ4

Here is the video of the tank after one year under the LED lighting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrolU7vzqNo

I am satisfied with those results to the point that I will go ahead and start this DIY here in the near future and hope for the best :)

The nice thing is that I do not have to give up my halides or T5's... so I always have the option of using a combo. If I like the LED enough, then I guess I will have some rather new lighting for sale soon.

[Europhyllia]

We have a MAAST member who adopted an AI fixture a couple of years ago. I don't think he's been all that happy with it and the support.
that actually doesn't suprise me at all. I figured it would start out overly expensive and less reliable.
My hope was that over time reliability and quality would improve and price would drop.
I do think they will eventually get there.
Of course I am proceeding cautiously and let ramsey hang his first and tell me all about it... :D
Does AI have a website? I was looking for info and just found retailers for it. Not a company website.

[txg8gxp]

http://www.aquaillumination.com/

[StevenSeas]

So from my readings, and conversations with one of our sales reps here's my take on the future of LEDs.

1 price will come down some but not much.
This is for a few Reasons, one because only one person in the us holds the patent for lighting an aquarium based solely on LEDs so everyone must go through them. Hence why pfo is out of business and no more solaris fixtures are being made. Two because major manufactures won't jump on the led lighting bandwagon soon because then they loose a sale to ppl whom have their lights every year because off the longevity of the bulbs. So this causes the initial price to be much greater. Third since no major manufactures are doing it this means only small independent ones will which means a lot of unfunded research and development that has to be made up for.

2. Quality will go up in time as it does with everything else; just takes time and patience. If you look right now the only " major" manufacturer close to offering reef led lighting is marineland new fixture and I'm not even sure if that's on the market yet but they are only using 1watt whites and 5mm blues for their "reef" lighting. Even their rep didn't like this.

Just a few thoughts, had more but can't remember them all. Hope that helps some Karin.

[ramsey]

Here ya go Karin:

http://www.aquaillumination.com/

I asked another MAAST member what he thought of his. He said he liked it and was debating on upgrading the existing one or buying a new one. I wouldn't think he'd be considering upgrading, much less, buying one if he wasn't happy with them. I appreciate the warning but I take it like I take online reviews, with a grain of salt. We shall see soon enough since they charged me for them today and I'm expecting them to ship tomorrow. As much hype as there is for them ATM, I think I could get most of my money back if I decided to sell. I don't think this will be the case though since all the reviews I could find were good.

[phippsj]

So from my readings, and conversations with one of our sales reps here's my take on the future of LEDs.

1 price will come down some but not much.
This is for a few Reasons, one because only one person in the us holds the patent for lighting an aquarium based solely on LEDs so everyone must go through them. Hence why pfo is out of business and no more solaris fixtures are being made. Two because major manufactures won't jump on the led lighting bandwagon soon because then they loose a sale to ppl whom have their lights every year because off the longevity of the bulbs. So this causes the initial price to be much greater. Third since no major manufactures are doing it this means only small independent ones will which means a lot of unfunded research and development that has to be made up for.

2. Quality will go up in time as it does with everything else; just takes time and patience. If you look right now the only " major" manufacturer close to offering reef led lighting is marineland new fixture and I'm not even sure if that's on the market yet but they are only using 1watt whites and 5mm blues for their "reef" lighting. Even their rep didn't like this.

Just a few thoughts, had more but can't remember them all. Hope that helps some Karin.


OK, so the PFO thing is always a tough one. I actually did look at exploring a business venture for LED fixtures and had to deal with the PFO issues. I had several legal reviews. First, their patent is a bit suspect - it went through incredibly fast and very vague. What PFO go taken to court for was not LEDs, but the way in which LEDs were controlled. The electronic/software controls of LEDs to emulate environmental conditions is what was attempted to be patented. I was rather confident in our ability to move the controlls off of the light fixture itself and achieve various environmental effects by other power controll issues (ie, we were going to make standard LED lights, and then a separate controller that could also be used with different types of lighting).

It ultimately came down to cost/benefit. The market is just not there, in my opinion, for a high enough adoption rate. The cost of the raw materials is still too high. I will do a 72" DIY for about $900. Commercially I need to sell that for $1800 (at least) to make money. Add in overhead and I am already pushing $2200... and then the stores need their cut, so you are pushing $3K price tags. The material costs of LEDs are not going to drop that fast. LEDs may be new to aquatic lighting, but they are not new to the world. In my opinion, they are already either commodity, or still recouping R&D costs (like Luminus).

Now, throw in a good DIY tutorial and let some folks have a small cottage industry, and you might see the LEDs get more traction. In order to be successful, however, the pricing needs to drop to about 35% premium over current hallide pricing. There is not enough volume in reef tanks (in my opinion), to make that happen. You would need thousands of reefers to suddenly decide to change out their lighting to LEDs, and then you would need thousands more to continue making more and more purchases. It was too big of a risk considering the competition that is already there, so I had to pass.

Other people are better at business than I am, and they will probably make it work. I just could not get the numbers to work out.

[acropoorer]

The case for LED is getting more compelling. Aside from the money, the DIY projects done at ReefCentral have also reported better coral coloration including SPS.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1587273


Here is a video of his tank over a year ago when he first got the lighting done: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqfxfqJ4QZ4

Here is the video of the tank after one year under the LED lighting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrolU7vzqNo

I am satisfied with those results to the point that I will go ahead and start this DIY here in the near future and hope for the best :)

The nice thing is that I do not have to give up my halides or T5's... so I always have the option of using a combo. If I like the LED enough, then I guess I will have some rather new lighting for sale soon.
Keep the combo, here's a tank on halides:
83038304

You can always look at them under LED at night:
83058306

If you want them to grow they need some broad spectrum light. Also, blue corals are difficult to see under blue light. I love my blue oregons and can't see them under led or led with actinic.

[ramsey]

If you want them to grow they need some broad spectrum light. Also, blue corals are difficult to see under blue light. I love my blue oregons and can't see them under led or led with actinic.

Can you elaborate on this? If you look at the AI fixtures, the white and blue are adjustable. So if you fancy more white light, you can set white higher. I'm not sure what you mean by "broad spectrum light" and "blue light". I've seen a nice DIY LED system in person and he rigged for white and blue to be adjustable. I didn't notice more blue light than any other type of light puts out. I did get him to go all blue which was pretty awesome though. Also, have you looked at any PAR data for any of the fixtures? I know that's not the end all, be all, but it is something. Speaking of that, I'd like to borrow the PAR meter when I get my lights set up to get my own results. Here's a good article I found comparing several LED fixtures:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/5/aafeature2

This is one reason why I went with AI over the others. The other reasons were upgradability, they're dimmable and they have a pretty cool controller for $60. I may upgrade the controller at some point but for the time being I think it'll be cool.

[ramsey]

Also, about the LED vs. MH, I think a lot depends on you. If you're a geek and like being on the cutting edge, LEDs are the way to go. If you want a proven light system and don't want to take any risks, go with MH or T5's.

[kkiel02]

My thoughts as far as LEDs at the moment are that they are of course very efficient and long lasting. They have alot of potential but I still believe alot of research still needs to be done on them at this point. They have made some breakthroughs lately as you can see from the newer diy builds. So if the technology does prove to work well for reef tanks, what I believe will be the downfall is the legal battle. It doesnt make sense for a company to fight PFO at the moment. They would lose money directly from the court costs and what not. They would open a door for other manufacturers to move in and sell their LED fixtures. They would also lose sales as LEDs last alot longer than both t5 or MH. As much as I hope it to happen I dont see it worthwhile for a company to pursue LED at the moment.

[Europhyllia]

The market is just not there, in my opinion, for a high enough adoption rate.

Sounds perfect for a small 'made to order' business though. Like I order it and you make it. Practice a bit first and see what you can come up with ;)

ramsey I am excited for you.

[ramsey]

I had to resurrect this thread. I just got my lights and put them up. Wow...Amazing! Just using four over my 6' tank is perfect. There's not any spot lighting. I have them hung about 6" or less over the tank. THEY ARE BRIGHT. I have them set at 50% white and 100% blue for the time being. They were just too much brighter than my last set up. I'm going to try to slowly crank them up over the next month or so. It's super cool with just the blues on and no whites. Everything just glows like crazy. I'll try to get some pictures posted. As far as comparing them to MH's, I would say that they are brighter than a 250w but I'm not sure they're brighter than a 400w since I had a 250 over my tank. Lots of shimmer! It really brings out the color in everything in my tank. Even things that I thought had very little color look great under these lights. I'm very happy with them so far.

The only annoyance I have is with the controller. The controller is nice for $60 but there was one issue that annoyed me. You can set up automatic sunrise/sunset which is cool. However, I run my lights from 3PM-3AM (I work nights). The controller asks you for the times on the sunrise and sunset but sunrise assumes it's going to be AM and sunset assumes it's going to be PM. I was really disappointed at first but then calmed down and thought about things. What I did to get around it was switch the current time. For example, It's about 2:30AM, My controller thinks it's 2:30PM. I have the sunset set at 3:00PM so it'll start the sunset in about a half hour. So all in all, no big deal. Another cool thing is you can choose how long the sunrise/sunsets last. I have it set to take 30 minutes but I may change it.

[Europhyllia]

Nice!
Pictures?

[ramsey]

Yup, I'll be getting to that. BTW, it's now "night time" and the moonlights are spectacular! I have it set to do the 29 day lunar cycle so I'm looking forward to that. The sunset was amazing! I may increase it to an hour though.

[Europhyllia]

ugh stop it! lol
I really can't buy that AI LED right now...

[Kristy]

I'm really, really hoping that one of you high tech LED guys will volunteer to participate in the next tank tour (about to announce the date for SA but think end of summer or beginning of fall) so you can show these off in person. :)

[Europhyllia]

Fantastic idea. Ramsey, we're on our way! (j/k)

[txg8gxp]

Man.....you just have to keep talking about AI don't you.... :). I'm super happy for you...My question is, have you been able to stop looking at the tank yet? I'm glad to hear you like the shorter fixture, I was thinking of running 2 modules on my 3' tank. Yes....we need pics, and more pics :)

[ramsey]

Here's a couple of pictures. I really didn't want to post them because they do the lights no justice. I said I would though! Either the camera or the operator or both really suck. Anyway, here ya go:

white: 50% blue:100%

http://www.ramseypawlik.com/newlights.jpg


white:0% blue: 100%

http://www.ramseypawlik.com/bluesonly.jpg

Like I said, the pictures do them no justice what so ever. If you're considering getting some and want to see them in person, let me know and we can set something up.

[txg8gxp]

Nice, good old led's :)

[Joseph]

Happy Fathers Day Ya all:
Just wanted to kick in that I have been running a AquaIllumination 8 X 90 watt system for over a year now on my 125, yes, expensive up front, but runs very cool, love being able to change the lighting from tiddy bowl blue to bright bright white. easy to keep clean, no crazy wiring harness to mess with or trouble shoot and oh ya my SPS are doing great.

[Europhyllia]

Joseph, clearly we will need to put you on our tour of tanks!
lol

[Joseph]

My 8 x 90 watt system, up & running for a year now....

[Europhyllia]

Wow! I didn't realize the individual units were so big. The corals certainly seem to like it! :)

[ramsey]

Holy cow! What generation are those? I can't imagine the amount of light you get with eight of them! How intense do you have them set? I have mine 65% white and 100% blue. Seems to be quite a bit of light even at 65% white.