Let's Get It On! SPS tissue recession

[CoryDude]

Feeling so honored right now to be the first member to post in this sub forum. It's one small stop for a man....one giant leap for mankind. J/K

I've had some issues w/sps tissue loss that last few months. The affected acro will lose tissue in a few areas. There is still polyp extension on those bare areas, and all the corals recovered in a few weeks. It happened to a milli, then a tenuis, then to a green slimer, and now a blue tort. It only affects one coral at a time. All parameters are good (j/k)

total alk: 4
ca: 400
ph: 8.15 night/8.3 day
no3: 5
po4: 0.05
temp: 78-79
Salinity: 1.025

I still need to test for magnesium. Any ideas?

[Bill S]

Cory...

You know I suspect your Hiatt...

[hobogato]

Cory...

You know I suspect your Hiatt...

X2

when i ran a hiatt filter on a quarantine tank of sps, they did not fare well (of coarse there were other things going on with those corals)

also, what are the units on that alkalinity? and where is the recession (from the tip or from the base)?

[CoryDude]

Yeah, the hiatt has been in the back of my mind. I may disconnect it if this keeps up.

Ace, the total alk is 4 meq/L, and the recession is in the middle of the sticks. Sometimes in a shaded area and sometimes not. That's what's weird about this.

I've also been looking for pests. I dipped one of the affected corals to check for parasites, but found nothing. I had a problem with redbugs a few months back, but that only affected polyp extension on a few stags. Didn't have any further problems with them after using inteceptor.

[hobogato]

yep, since it is in the middle, that somewhat rules out alkalinity or phosphate issues. i would lean towards some kind of pest of something else that is picking on them. what fish do you have in the tank?

[CoryDude]

I'm keeping my eye on the coral beauty and the tonga blenny. I've seen the blenny take an occasional nip here and there before.

[hobogato]

you might have found your answer then...

[CoryDude]

That's the fun of reefing. There's a million possibilities. I've taken my calcium reactor offline and switched to 2 part dosing, and my mh bulbs are nearing a year. So I'll keep my eye on the fish, ca/alk balance, hiatt, and lighting. Thanks for the input Ace and Bill.

[BIGBIRD123]

Cory, also look for a Gorilla crab. They will eat an acro from the middle of the colony out. It may look like a harmless acro crab but look for blue eyes or hairy legs...I lost one that way.

[ErikH]

I have a shaggy mille that does the same thing Cory. Coincidentally, I cannot keep Green Slimer either. I suspect Alk swings probably! :)

[CoryDude]

I have a shaggy mille that does the same thing Cory. Coincidentally, I cannot keep Green Slimer either. I suspect Alk swings probably! :)

Your like me Erik. I can keep the more delicate sps, but have problems w/the easy ones!

That is my gut feeling on this. I was having problems dialing in my calcium reactor. So the alk may have been swinging. That's why I've started the 2 part and will supplement w/kalk every few days.

One of the bright side, one of the tort branches is almost 100% healed and the 2nd is about 1/3 healed. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[CaptainGreg]

Cory,

Having the same problem with the Hiatt system. I got two tanks going on Hiatt and they both suffer the same problem. I experiment on one and took the skimmer off line. Added the Sea lab block to make sure I am not missing any mineral elements. Well It does not help much, check cal/mag/alk/PH... and they are fine. I started to add large quantity of vitamin and amino acid supplements. The bottle said 16 oz treat 5000 gal I added the whole bottle in one week. Well guess what, it works. The SPS recover some and color start to return some. One thing is that adding vitamin and amino acid promote algae growth. I start to see more algae on the glass and rock. I just ran out of sumplement and is ordering more. Trying to find the dosage value for my tank setup.

I am going to do the same to my other tank and see if I can get a repeatable result.

[CaptainGreg]

Corry, Did you take your skimmer and Hiatt system off line? Are the SPS recovering?

[CoryDude]

Hey Greg! Good to hear from you!

What brand supplement did you use? Are you seeing any hair algae from using this?

It turns my problems are from aefw. I'm going to tear down my tank and start over. But, I still want to use the Hiatt. So, please keep me up to date on your coral recovery.

[CaptainGreg]

I use seachem, but I think any thing that contain amino acid / vitamin (protein) will do.

[CaptainGreg]

Hello Cory,

Here is a good link about amino acid and nutrient uptake of coral and bout low nutrient condition.

http://www.coralscience.org/main/articles/nutrition-5/amino-acids

[CoryDude]

Thank you Capt. I found a amino supplement at my fav fish store.

I actually pulled a few pounds of carbon out of the torpedo a few weeks back. Even though I hadn't done a water change in almost 3 weeks, the nitrate levels actually dropped from 5meq/L to 2 after removing the carbon. But, with even with the multiple treatments for aefw, the corals actually look better than when I started the whole dipping process.

[CaptainGreg]

What brand of amino did you use?

I planning to remove two more lb of carbon from the filer and see if the response is better from amino acid dosing. I can alway add some back in if algae start to show.

[CoryDude]

Haven't use the amino-acids yet, but it's a seachem product. Probably the same as yours. My lfs also has Brightwell, so I may try that.

Before, I discovered the flatworms, I started feed the tank and night using coral frenzy and reefroids. There seemed to be a good response from the corals when using those products.

[Big_Pun]

Fuel works great Cory, I've been using it for 3 months and I have seen noticeable growth and faster tissue healing after I frag sps

[CaptainGreg]

Cory, I think we are on the right track to have this solve.... I also started to feed the coral. I am going to check out some of the concentrated amino acid... and let you know if that speed up the sps recovery.

[CaptainGreg]

It is confirm, adding amnio acid, coral food and other vitamin and mineral does help the coral to recover. Also, I frag the coral and save most of them.

Was running the Hiat system with sump, but now convert totally to a close loop and it seem to work a lot better and alot cleaner.

I use a Hayward swimming pool filter as a pre filter before the tribase filter. I remove the ph rock because it does nothing. I use sea lab blocks as supplement. Create a back flush system that flush the dust into the pool filer. No need to have water reject into a bucket. Clean the swimming pool filter and backflush every two weeks seem to work. I Dose supplement and coral food twice a week. Try added lot off fish. 20% Water change every three months.

Water is clean an clear as ever.

Coral is growing, but currently having problem with RBTA. They seem to be not eating. Maybe they got enough food from the water.

[CoryDude]

Hey Captain! You have a keen mind when it comes to setting up your filters. I like your carbon tubes and now I like your idea for the pre-filter.

I just took my Hiatt offline a few weeks back. Sps were/are looking pale and noticed reduced polyp extension. I'm going to try a few months without it to see if there's any improvement. Everything is growing, but the acros look unhealthy. Currently I'm using cheato, skimming, and a diy sulphur denitrator to keep nutrients in check.

I'm using Seachem's Fuel 2X a week and feeding a mix of h2o's cyclops and coral food once a week. What exactly are you dosing and feeding?

[CaptainGreg]

I use Seachem Reef Plus + Elos Amino Acid + Feed the coral with Reef Chilli + silver sides for larger fish and nems. I also drop in the Sea Lab block. I used to bad mouth this stuff, but I found that I need it for other trace elements. I am not sure what wrong, but the RBTA I got from a club member did not do well in my system. It was red and now it just pink and does not eat. I have a carpet that eat and color up really nice.

I think the Reef Plus is the key... I did add alot of this in when I was having problem with the SPS. I added so much that I can start to see some algae to grow. At that point, I know i found the right amount... Sure enought the SPS start to come back and growing again. I have 125 gal that I am going to convert to a full close loop like 250 gal.. The hayward filter just arrived.
I will have install that when I come back from my scuba trip to Philippine.

By the way, I smell this Reef plus stuff and it seem to have the sugar smell to it. I think most of this stuff might be mostly sugar.

Snake told me to back flush more often. It could help with reducing the number of bacteria so less nutrient is being taken out. I don't test my water any more. I just add food and stuff until I see algae and then I slow down the feeding...It seem to work so far. It is kind of a balancing act. Well at least, I don't have to do too many water change.

One strange thing, I have a bird nest that I could not save. It just die. Since I got the system back with adding more nutrient, I see three place on rocks in different location of the tank having bird nest growing. I am not sure how they spread. The coral was a tiny polops two months ago and now it about 2 inch high with multi branches. Never seen that before.

[jrnannery]

Fuel works great Cory, I've been using it for 3 months and I have seen noticeable growth and faster tissue healing after I frag sps

^^ That's what I said!

[CaptainGreg]

Hey Captain! You have a keen mind when it comes to setting up your filters. I like your carbon tubes and now I like your idea for the pre-filter.

I just took my Hiatt offline a few weeks back. Sps were/are looking pale and noticed reduced polyp extension. I'm going to try a few months without it to see if there's any improvement. Everything is growing, but the acros look unhealthy. Currently I'm using cheato, skimming, and a diy sulphur denitrator to keep nutrients in check.

I'm using Seachem's Fuel 2X a week and feeding a mix of h2o's cyclops and coral food once a week. What exactly are you dosing and feeding?


Cory, Did your sps recover when you remove hiat system?

I moved my 150 gal to a larger 200 gal where the sps start to re-grow. Well to move the small tank to a larger tank, I added more new clean water. The coral start to show sign of recession again. I ran out of the suplement. I am ordering seachem fuel and hope that work better.

The large tanks are in my business locations and I don't have time to keep a close eyes on them. I am starting a 75 gal with the same setup as the other system and see if I can gain some control over my experiment.

I am going to move all the coral to the 75 gal at home and do fish only in my other tanks at my business locations.

The tanks at my business location is clean and clear... Again fishs are doing great soft and LPS coral are doing great.

Do you think carbon dust have any affect on sps?

That is my next test. Adding a cartrage filter after the hiat and see if that work.:Timeout:

[CoryDude]

No Greg, I lost most of them during the AEFW treatment last fall.

I setup a new 120g last fall and used the hiatt. I had the same problems as before. I think you're right that aminos and some other things are the key to healthy sps in a ulns.

I looked at pics and videos I took over the last 1.5 years. I broke them up into dates. When I was using the hiatt and doing large water changes, the sps pics/videos looked great. But, when I quit doing water changes that's when the sps looked bad.

Even with adding the aminos, the sps looked pale, had little polyp extension, and did not grow. I even disconnected the Hiatt and just used a sulphur denitrator, I still had the same problem. I wasn't doing water changes when I used the denitrator, either.

For my new system, I use the denitrator, cheato, skimmer, and gfo. I do not use the hiatt. I do 10g water changes every week, add Fuel, and dose prodibio biodigest every other week. Nitrates are around 2mg/L and the new sps I added 3 weeks ago have deep/dark colors, great polyp extension, and show new growth tips.

I have to clean the glass a little more often than when I used the hiatt, but the tank looks a lot better. I guess time will tell if new setup works.

But, I really think if you're using the hiatt, you need to add the aminos and other additives like kz magnesium, kz kh plus, etc. I also think water changes are needed too.

[CaptainGreg]

I am going to keep runing the Hiatt on my other tank as Fish only.

I am going to do some experiment with my 75gal at home. I am going to add a post filter to trap all carbon particles and even bacteria. I am going to add 25% less than the recommended carbon.

Hope that will work.

I will post my result. If you don't hear from me that mean the experiment did not work.

[CoryDude]

Hope it works for the best. I still have my hiatt sitting in the garage and plan on using it on a fowlr or a freshwater setup in the future.

[CaptainGreg]

Hey Cory,

The 75 gal up and running... It working well. Got some algae but not bad for 2 and 1/2 lb of carbon. I just add 1/2 lb more to the reactor total 3 lb. The algae start to go away. I am still one pound less than the recommended amount for coral.

Phospate and nitrate in the low range not zero. SPS are growing nice...

Keeping close tap on P and N.... Feeding coral and fish every day. I did purchase the seachem fuel and it seem to do a good job in promoting coral growth.

I will write again in nine months.

[CaptainGreg]

Some SPS loose some colors. I think I found the issue with low nutrient system. I found that alk is alway fall very fast even with Kalk dosing as water replacement. I have to dose alk to bring it up to normal and PH fall low at night and goes high in the day time. What I did was dose soda ash at night to bring alk and ph up. I also found dosing potassium is another key from bring the coral back to health.

Some of my pale/STN SPS stop STN and getting it color back and growing back.


I am sure there are other elements are missing in the water. I do some water change to replace missing element, but keep alk,cal,mg,ph,potassium high and stable is the key. Feeding coral is key too (ie add some nutrient in the water)


I did have problem with phospate and low nitrate where it cause dyno and red slime bacteria/algae that kill a few nice sps. I have to add GFO to kill them off. Now N is low and P is zero.

The acutal hair algae or any other green algae is non existance.

I am very encurage with potassium dosing that bring the color back and increase growth in SPS.

Adding other type of SPS next week.

currently looking for auto dosing method to minimize low alk and ph.

I will post more info on what other trace element needed.
Right now the key is Potassium....(N,P,K) these three elements are key to growth. Need to know how to control them just like alk,cal,mg,ph

[CoryDude]

Hey Greg! Glad to hear the acros are doing well.

I started using Red Sea coral color program. I monitor potassium and iron and have been having excellent results.

[CaptainGreg]

Me too... I am using the Red Sea color program....

[Big_Pun]

i did the red sea colors additives and didnt have good luck but then again at the time i was just running bio pellets and no fuge. for past 2 months or more ive placed cheato on a 24hr cycle.For additives iam now using brightwells potassium and idodine, and kent marines essential elements. ill soon be moving to zeovit's sea water complex,made for low nutrient systems not using zeovit processes.Louis just got a bottle in for me,he can get any zeo products . http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/aquarium-additives-supplements/kz-korallen-zucht-additives-supplements/zeovit-sea-water-complex-500-ml-korallen-zucht.html

[CoryDude]

I found that alk is alway fall very fast even with Kalk dosing as water replacement. I have to dose alk to bring it up to normal and PH fall low at night and goes high in the day time. What I did was dose soda ash at night to bring alk and ph up. I also found dosing potassium is another key from bring the coral back to health.

Hmm, I've always had a problem with alk also, but I had that problem before the Hiatt and after the Hiatt.


I am sure there are other elements are missing in the water. I do some water change to replace missing element, but keep alk,cal,mg,ph,potassium high and stable is the key. Feeding coral is key too (ie add some nutrient in the water)


With the NO3 reactor, I only change about 10% of the water per month, and that is for mineral replacement also. I agree that this is very important on low nutrient systems.


Adding other type of SPS next week.
What are you adding? Be sure to snap a picture for us.


Right now the key is Potassium....(N,P,K) these three elements are key to growth. Need to know how to control them just like alk,cal,mg,ph

So are you saying that Nitrogen, Phoshorus, and Potassium are the keys to growth for a ULNS? I never knew that nitrogen could be important. I think you are right that controlling them is the key, because it seems there might be a fine line between being deficiencies and too much.

[CoryDude]

i did the red sea colors additives and didnt have good luck but then again at the time i was just running bio pellets and no fuge. for past 2 months or more ive placed cheato on a 24hr cycle.For additives iam now using brightwells potassium and idodine, and kent marines essential elements. ill soon be moving to zeovit's sea water complex,made for low nutrient systems not using zeovit processes.Louis just got a bottle in for me,he can get any zeo products . http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/products/aquarium-additives-supplements/kz-korallen-zucht-additives-supplements/zeovit-sea-water-complex-500-ml-korallen-zucht.html

Wow, that's an expensive additive Chris. But, at 1ml per 25 gallons per day, it will last you almost 5 months won't it? Guess it's not that much when you figure it that way.

I didn't know you quit the red sea program. What happened? I had problems when I added the Iron supplement too fast, but so far (knock on wood) I've been pretty happy with all 4 parts. I don't even test anymore, I just throw about 30ml of each into the tank on a weekly basis.

[Big_Pun]

Wow, that's an expensive additive Chris. But, at 1ml per 25 gallons per day, it will last you almost 5 months won't it? Guess it's not that much when you figure it that way.

I didn't know you quit the red sea program. What happened? I had problems when I added the Iron supplement too fast, but so far (knock on wood) I've been pretty happy with all 4 parts. I don't even test anymore, I just throw about 30ml of each into the tank on a weekly basis.

it worked ok but i would run out of certain additives before others and still had lil probs, so i went back to my old products. also the whole kit cost 60 bucks and some last 2 months some longer, so $55 plus tax on 500ml of zeovit is so much better for me considering my system is like 80-90 gallons. ill compare the minerals in the zeo and the three im using now and go from there. if you read the zeo product it states its for low nutrient systems, which ive come to notice in our low nutrient systems elements are used up faster.

[CoryDude]

Good point on the cost comparrison. I really only use part c and d, but Gabe hooked me up with 6 bottles and a potassium test kit for $40. So I'm using all 4 parts for the next few months. Let me know how the zeo additive works. May just have to check it out.