Possible Link between HLLE and Activated Carbon

[Europhyllia]

I was going to discuss this article in our Book Review Club Group but Justin thought it might be of interest to non-group members as well so here it is brought to you by Coral Magazine:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/hlle-and-activated-carbon-looking-link


see update on page 2...

[Bill S]

In my opinion, the link is a bit of a stretch at this point. I'm glad they are going forward with a controlled study. Until then, I wouldn't be diving into this too deeply. I had a problem with HLLE and was not running carbon.

[Europhyllia]

I agree. Even the authors said more study was needed. But I thought it was very interesting that there even could be possible side effects to something as seemingly benign as GAC

[justahobby]

Every author I have read contradicts the previous. I came to my own conclusion that it very well could be removing beneficial elements, but without having reliable test kits for trace elements, we will never have a sound conclusion. I'll try to find some time tonight to highlight a few of the articles I have read.

[Bill S]

I agree. Even the authors said more study was needed. But I thought it was very interesting that there even could be possible side effects to something as seemingly benign as GAC

Oh, absolutely. That's why the study - because of the large number of positive respondents, a study is very much in order. Otherwise, folks will drop their use of GAC, and possibly do more harm than good. Kind of like the banning of DDT because it allegedly thinned the shells of birds of prey. It wasn't the cause, and instead malaria killed a few million people in Africa and India.

[Bill S]

Every author I have read contradicts the previous. I came to my own conclusion that it very well could be removing beneficial elements, but without having reliable test kits for trace elements, we will never have a sound conclusion. I'll try to find some time tonight to highlight a few of the articles I have read.

Certainly could, Justin. I had problems with my Hiatt system removing something that SPS needed. Still don't know what that was - but the Hiatt is a carbon based system.

[alton]

One other mistake in this article was that current causes HLLE, when it should of said voltage. If you have current leaking into your tank you get the shock of your life which we know it is bad for fish and man. But when voltage is in your tank you will never notice it unless you use a meter to test for it.

[Kristy]

There is a big difference between correlation and causality.

Ice cream sales have a strong correlation with murder rates in our country (when one is on the rise, so is the other) but certainly ice cream eating does not CAUSE murder. There are additional factors that explain them both (summertime, heat, etc.)

So, is there a correlation between use of carbon and HLLE? Yes, it appears that way in some other articles I've read as well as this one. Does not mean that it causes it. There are correlations with lots of other things as well (such as poor diet, poor water quality, stray voltage, etc.) so lots more research needs to be done on this.

I read a really expansive article that reviewed all the literature on HLLE and it was very informative. I'll try to find it and post it (kept a printed copy somewhere).

[ErikH]

I removed my GAC from my tank when my now dead hippo BARELY started showing signs of HLLE, and it went away. Not sure the cause, but that "seemed" to be the fix.

IMO until they can tell me EVERY little thing in my tank via a test kit, it's impossible to rule for or against.

[RayAllen]

In my opinion, the link is a bit of a stretch at this point. I'm glad they are going forward with a controlled study. Until then, I wouldn't be diving into this too deeply. I had a problem with HLLE and was not running carbon.

X2- ditto

Interesting Topic,

but I dont buy into this. Ive been using activated carbon for as long as ive been in the hobby (both fresh and salt) and in no way have I ever seen ill effects.

I can not jump on board wihtout legitamate testing and studies from professionals in a controlled lab. Untill then its just guessing and coincidence.

[Ping]

This would never be published in a Scientific Journal. It is terribly written and intended to persuade the reader to a conclusion; even before a study is conducted.

First Question, who was surveyed? - Some idiot or a respected aquarist.

Public Aquarist? Is that a scientific credential (BS, MS, Ph.D.?)

Have the survey respondents been peer reviewed for credibility: MAAST and R.C. are a source of peer review for our community.

How much carbon was used and for how long was the carbon used before removal, I could go on but I am only this negative to explain a point. Just because it is written does not make it credible. Carbon is very effective if used correctly. I would postulate that most negative critics of carbon do not even know what carbon is intended to do, or how it actually works.

[Europhyllia]

Here you go. Here's an update:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found

[ErikH]

I was fairly certain of this, thanks for the update!

[allan]

wow, that was a read and a half. I just started using carbon, low dust.

[alton]

Maybe someone can answer me on this study with lignite coal which I believe is strip mined. I know south of SA there is a electrcial plant that runs off of lignite coal. In this study all I hear is the name lignite coal never charcoal made from coconut shell, cherry wood, oak wood or charcoal from any other material? Also remember most liquor is filtered through charcoal to get its taste?

[Europhyllia]

Good point Alton. Post it if you find the answer :)

[CoryDude]

Here a a few thoughts I had while reading this article. Again, I am not discounting what is being theorized, but I'd like to see a broader study done.

1) "To date, the cause(s) of this syndrome have not been identified in aquarium fish through published scientific study, although conjecture and informal studies abound." They admit from the get-go that there still isn't a concensus as to the cause of hlle.

2) "When the survey results were limited to professional public aquarists, 19% of the respondents found complete reversal of HLLE by discontinuing the use of carbon filtration." So 100 "advanced" aquarists were surveyed. There were 18 treatment methods shown to have worked, 84% of those methods involved moving the fish to new environments, and only 19% saw a reversal of hlle when carbon was discontinued? The number of people keeps getting watered down, while the variables keep going up. Mathematically, this doesn't prove a thing to me.

3) "Three 120 gallon marine aquarium systems (two tanks per system) were established using typical home aquarium equipment and synthetic seawater. Live rock was utilized as the basis for biological filtration in all three systems. Thirty-five Ocean Surgeonfish, (Acanthurus bahianus) were evenly distributed among the three systems at the start of the study." This does not constitute a comprehensive study IMHO. A much broader study conducted in numerous settings around the country done by different experts would be needed for a more complete study. The article does state that other public aquariums have reported similar findings, but no information was given about them. This seems like too narrow of a snapshot to tell everyone to start dumping their carbon in the trashcan. Plus, a more comprehensive peer review done of a longer period of time would be needed.

4) "It has also been reported that aquariums which use foam fractionators (protein skimmers) do not seem to develop HLLE as frequently, even when carbon is routinely used." I'd be willing to bet most systems in this hobby use a skimmer. When I got into reefing 15 years ago, my first two purchases were in this order; a fish tank, a skimmer. Wouldn't this mitigate most of the threats of from carbon in the majority of systems?

5) "In addition, the hard pelleted carbon used in this study did not cause severe HLLE, while the soft, dusty carbon did." I have yet to see one reefer out there that does not use pellatized carbon. The article even states that most aquarist do not use the dusty type of carbon. Plus, I have yet to see one box, bag, or container of carbon that does not specifically state to completely rinse your carbon before using it in a tank.

The new article does not change my opinion from last year. It's basically the same thing as the previous write-up, but with an update on the results from the Toledo Zoo experiment. The people there did a GREAT job of using a controlled setup, but I still think there's too many factors, and too little time researching this for me to throw my container of carbon in the trashcan.

[ErikH]

Dont throw it away, just rinse the carp out of it. :) There have only been two pictures of fish in the wild with HLLE, so it's not a stretch believing that it comes from something added to our tanks. Well, what's one of the most common filters for our aquaria?

Carbon.

:D

[Richard]

Here you go. Here's an update:
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/activated-carbon-hlle-smoking-gun-found

I find that article and the study very interesting and very annoying at the same time. The annoying part of the article is that the authors are declaring activated carbon as causing HLLE when it sounds like it was the dust that was the likely the cause.

The really interesting part of the study is that they were able to cause HLLE all the fish exposed to the unwashed lignite carbon and microlesions in the fish exposed to the unwashed pelleted carbon. The annoying part of the study is it appears they didn't take the next logical step and expose a group of fish to a non carbon dust of similar size/composition to see if it caused HLLE as well. Hopefully that will be a future study.

Still it's not enough for me to stop using carbon. I've never had HLLE problems from it but then again unlike the study I never ran a tank with no skimmer, no mechanical filtration, and used unwashed dusty carbon without rinsing it first.

[jroescher]

Wonder how this would affect the use of RO units? They use carbon filters.

[justahobby]

I find that article and the study very interesting and very annoying at the same time. The annoying part of the article is that the authors are declaring activated carbon as causing HLLE when it sounds like it was the dust that was the likely the cause.

The really interesting part of the study is that they were able to cause HLLE all the fish exposed to the unwashed lignite carbon and microlesions in the fish exposed to the unwashed pelleted carbon. The annoying part of the study is it appears they didn't take the next logical step and expose a group of fish to a non carbon dust of similar size/composition to see if it caused HLLE as well. Hopefully that will be a future study.

Still it's not enough for me to stop using carbon. I've never had HLLE problems from it but then again unlike the study I never ran a tank with no skimmer, no mechanical filtration, and used unwashed dusty carbon without rinsing it first.


That sums it up nicely

[Bill S]

I had HLLE problems with a hippo tang, yet never ran carbon. In the rare event I did, it was well washed.

As Richard points out, the science isn't complete - the experiment wasn't completely thought out.

[Jarob]

There is a TON needed to be done before anything can be declared as scientifically proven.. Its a great start to base an hypothesis off of, but for the time being that’s all it is. Sure they had a control, but like Allen said in the other thread there are just too many contributing variables that need to be in check. All science needs to start somewhere and this could very well prove to be true after more studies are done so really if carbon is not that big of a role in your system it couldn’t hurt to remove it, or never use it in the first place (I don’t). To give it some merit all that needs to be done are some legitimate controlled experiments in which other factors (such as liverock and over crowding) are not present, think QT tanks. Personally, I wouldnt run carbon if I had a decent fish population that could develop HLLE though, just to be on the safe side with all the investment in money and care :bigsmile:

[Richard]

It's a shame they didn't at least include thoroughly rinsed carbon into the study. You would think they would have since it say the original hypothesis was carbon dust was the culprit. This may be a case of follow the directions!


Directions for Use
Please rinse ROWA carbon with water before use to remove carbon dust.


Directions

Use approximately 1/2 cup of HydroCarbon2 per 50 gallons. Pour the required quantity into a polyester or nylon filter media bag. Rinse the carbon by immersing the closed filter media bag into a container of tap water. The porous carbon sizzles as it becomes hydrated. Shake the bag underwater. Lift and immerse underwater repeatedly in order to wash out most of the carbon fines.


Black Diamond Activated Carbon

Directions:
Place in media bag or media basket and rinse thoroughly in cold water to eliminate dust.
Replace immediately when effectiveness diminishes, usually indicated by smells or discoloration of aquarium water. Otherwise, replace every 4-6 weeks.


Premium Granulated Carbon
Rinse. Pour the correct amount of carbon into a mesh filter media bag and close securely. Rinse the carbon with RO/DI (reverse osmosis/deionized) water or water from the tank to remove the dust created from storage and transport.


Black Magic Activated Filter Carbon
Instructions: Before using, rinse thoroughly under running water to remove fine particles caused by shipping vibration. Place Carbon in one of the following locations: Black Magic Power Pocket Replacement Filter Cartridge, Bubble-Up Under Gravel or Corner Filter, on a outside filter (follow manufacturer's directions), or in a nylon filter bag on top of a gravel bed.


Lifegard Aquatics Pelletized Activated Carbon

Directions
Place in media bag or media basket and rinse thoroughly in cold water to eliminate dust particles.