Baby Banggais

[justahobby]

My first Banggai came from an established tank. I really didn't know much about them, but fell in love with his personality. After lots of reading about the species I learned several interesting facts.

1) They readily spawn in the aquarium
2) Mouth brooders so the babies are able to accept larger foods (cyclops, rottifers, baby brine) as compared to larvae stage fish.
3) There populations are being dramatically decreased by the aquarium trade alone
4) The quality of imports has drastically been reduced to a high mortality rate - several theories on why.

I read several articles and experiences on other forums on captive breeding which I will post at the bottom. It's recommended to give a mating pair 15g... I have a 58 DT, BIO 14g, and bought a 20L. The 20L was intended to be partitioned off to raise the babies and allow the male time to fatten up after carrying a clutch of eggs.

I went to pick up my Banggais on Wednesday and found they have come in as babies. Their bodies are about the size of a dime. No worries though, this will give me time to master feeding and observe their behaviors when they stop schooling and begin to pair off. I picked 5 up in hopes that I get more males than females. Females are notorious for popping out more eggs as soon as the male releases his current clutch. W/ more males I can allow one or two to be fattening up before placing him with the female again.

Since I already prepared to 20L for babies, I acclimated them to that tank and placed my soo very realistic fake urchin in :angel: It's PVC that I cut the bottom of w/ a saw saw so it doesn't roll. Then I drilled holes and used black weed eater string for the spikes. I also added LR w/ halimeda. I picked the halimeda because it doesn't require strong lighting like most macros (wanted soft light in their tank) and will provide some coverage like the fake urchin. Also, I chose a pink bulb for the tank just because I thought it would be less stressful for them.


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af324/BioFish09/Photo_042810_009.jpg


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af324/BioFish09/Photo_042810_004.jpg


I acclimated for a very long time. I've noticed my fish don't hide so readily and eat sooner if I extend their float time and drip time. I think it has more to do with getting them to relax in their current situation before changing it again. Next, I drip acclimated them in bucket w/ lid to give them some privacy.

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af324/BioFish09/Photo_042810_005.jpg



And here's the little guys!

http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af324/BioFish09/Photo_042810_008.jpg


W/ my phone's zoom on:


http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af324/BioFish09/Photo_042810_007.jpg

[Europhyllia]

Awww. I love your fake urchin! :) The the little cardinals are cute I bet. I saw some babies at GCReef and they were fantastic -such intricate replicas of their parents even at such a small size.

[justahobby]

FOOD:
I wasn't anticipating having babies so I didn't have baby brine brewing. So I did a test run with adult brine and they are definitely big enough to eat them. So I got so Brightwell food enhancement ( a lot like Selcon... maybe better) and went to HEB and picked up some organic garlic concentrate for 6 bucks. I tried minced mysis and rottifers without luck. I picked up some of the new Instant Ocean's gel food "Cyclop Eeze" and the fish like it. Not as much as the brine, but I'm confident now. They had pinched bellies when I got them and I have been methodical about regular feeding. They have fat bellies now :D and swim all over the tank to chase food.

TANK: It's a 20L BB. I chose BB because I didn't food souring in the bottom of the tank. I used half New SW and half from my DT and est. LR. I use a K1 for flow and an HOB filter from Wally World to run carbon and filter floss. Given the amount I feed them I stay pretty on top of WC's. I change 1.5g a day and every few days I am doing a 5g change. The water comes from my 58g and I drip the water into the 20L. This way, I do not worry about PH, Salinity, and temp swings. ]


NOTES: I'm hoping that after posting my experiences it will encourage other knowledgeable people to begin breeding. These fish are endangered and a few people could remove San Antonio's dependency on WC banggai's. I think the biggest key to success is by only offering them to LFS that agree to sell captive breds for the same price as WC, if not cheaper. As promised here's a list of articles and personal experiences I have followed:


http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/livestock-breeding/35389-bangaii-breeding-here-we-go-we-got-eggs.html
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1791743&page=2
http://www.reefs.org/library/article/f_marini.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/banggaifaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/banggairepro.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/banggaidis.htm



And I have a few pdf that I will try and find the links for.

[justahobby]

http://www.ssn.org/Meetings/cop/cop14/Factsheets/Cardinalfish_EN.pdf
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119922378/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

[justahobby]

The babies are a blast. Love the little guys. I have identified each one by the pattern of spots on their sides which makes it a more personable experience and easier to track their eating/ health. After looking at them for an extended period, I look back at my adult like he is Godzilla!

When I added them, I noticed they chose an area w/ lower flow rather than the coverage of LR and urchin. So I moved the koralia which made them move to the cover. They will hang around floating, but as soon as food hits the water, they know no bounds! It's amazing how they can go from 0-100 in the blink of an eye.

[justahobby]

I just had some exciting new development (possibly). I noticed one of the BC's bullying another w/ fin nipping. This should mean that both are males which leaves 3 to be sexed. I didn't expect it to happen this soon. It's possible I am jumping the gun and one male is just establishing dominance, while the second could very well be female. I'm going to monitor the bully for a little longer to see if it continues. If it does, then I will separate the bully w/ an acrylic divider. After that, I will add give him a buddy. If they fight, I'll assume its a boy and move down the line until hopefully I have a female paired with him. Of course, I don't expect them to be sexually mature for at least 6 months. I'm having a hard time aging them since they don't do a lot of growing in the first few months. If I had to guess I would say they are 2-3 months old at this point.

[Mr Cob]

Great read. Thanks for documenting Justin. Very exciting.

[Troy Valentine]

Wow, acclimating very young Cardinals is not an easy thing to do; cudos to your ability. I am curious to see how well you can pair them up at such a young age. Are they taking to the fake urchin? I had a real diadema urchin and the babies never bothered with it.
I am looking forward to further updates.

[kkiel02]

I love these and always wanted to try them but never got around to it... I know they can be sexed by their mouths but being so small that is hard Im sure.

[justahobby]

Update: The bullying does not appear to be linked to gender at this point. Just an establishment of dominance or territory. They all face the current and hover in a particular order....the same fish is always to the right, front, or back of each other. They seem to be defending their spot, or order of arrangement, in the group if one drifts too close.

Thanks Troy, I am taking it very slow and exercising every bit of knowledge I've gained from experience, research, and here on MAAST :D However, I do not consider myself in the clear yet. I probably won't give myself a pat on the back or breathe a sigh of relief until they are in adulthood.

Kevin, I've been looking at their second dorsal fins and see a difference in length in a few, but I'm not 'counting chickens' yet. Fin nipping, slight size variations, and the way they hold their fin makes it difficult to judge differences, if any.

[Kristy]

That is so cool, Justin! I have been wanting to do this for about two years. For quite a while we talked about dedicating our 20g hex to try to breed a pair of banggais, but I only wanted to get tank raised (or re-homed from another reefer) and had trouble finding them until recently and then was not sure about sexing them so we haven't ever tried it.

[justahobby]

Yeah, I really wanted tank raised, but as I'm sure you found out, its near impossible. And I don't think that any of the stores will guarantee gender, unless they are selling a mated pair. That's when I realized there never will be captive bred until somebody gets off their butt (me) and puts forth a good effort and documents along the way.

[Kristy]

I've only found them tank-raised a couple of times, one being at GCReef. You have not seen cute until you see those teeny, tiny little baby banggais swimming in their nursery.

Probably similar to the cuteness you have going on in your place at the moment, with their little faux urchin! ;)

[Pennies2Cents]

Very good thread Justin! :) Keep us posted on those cute babies. :)

[justahobby]

Looks like I'm going to be divided the group up today. The three dominant babies and their boisterousness appear to have made the other two become reclusive. One didn't come out for feeding and that really bugs me since I'm not sure they can go very long without food at their age. The second was hesitant to come out but was eating. Funny thing is, it's the two biggest that are staying in the back... wish me luck.

[justahobby]

I don't think they were in immediate danger, but I want these guys to have the best possible chance so I'm acclimating to move 2 to the Biocube. There's never been a predator in that tank so countless pods are always scurrying around even with lights on. Hopefully the source of live food will bring them out of their shell. I was able to distinguish the two recluses by their bellies not being as fat from breakfast as the others. I'm hoping live food will fix that too. I'm also going to start a brine culture.

[justahobby]

Update:

I placed two of the BCs in my BC.. haha jk. I placed two of my Banggai Cardinals in the Biocube yesterday evening. I kept the actinics on and watched them attempt to catch a few larger amphipods. They were a little too big to swallow. I did get one to eat a couple adult brine shrimp. This evening I noticed they must have been successful at catching pods because their bellies were more full than when I left.

My BBS finished hatching this evening and I dosed Zoe, Phyto, and AminOmega. I ran the bubbler long enough to mix up the additives and let that sit for about an hour. I'm not sure how much, if any, good the zoe and phyto did but I was anxious to get the BC's fed. I've been reading that dosing AminOmega (or selcon) will actually stick to the BBS so it's not very important if they eat it or not (I believe that info came from brineshrimpdirect.com).

These banggais aren't readily accepting the frozen food so they haven't associated me w/ food which leaves them a little afraid of me still (whereas the babies in the 20L already stalk the glass when I approach). I poured in the enriched BBS and walked away for a few moments. That was at least an hour ago (maybe 2) and they are still picking at their dinner. Also, I noticed they are definitely more food aggressive w/ just the actinics on. I will be exploiting this in my quest to wean them back to frozen (so frustrating since they ate it fine the first couple days). I'm hoping they are just feeling weak and tired. Once they get the strength back and they become active hunters I expect to have a great success story for them accepting frozen :D

Oh, almost forgot to mention that the 20L babies are growing more accustomed to the Cyclop eeze. With every feeding they are liking it more and more :D Also, they want to eat mysis but they are still too big (even with slicing them up w/ a razor blade). I'm going to keep offering it so they stay accustomed to the mysis and don't digress.

[BIGBIRD123]

There is a breeder is DFW area that sells captive breed. I'l see if I can find his info.

[justahobby]

There is a breeder is DFW area that sells captive breed. I'l see if I can find his info.

Thanks, It would be great to correspond w/ him and hear any advice/ exp he's willing to share.

[BIGBIRD123]

I got to get into some very enlightening discussions with Eric Borneman when I was on the MASNA BOD and was going to try and start a MASNA sanctioned Breeder set-up. I'll give him a call also...

[justahobby]

The two biocube babies are doing well. Gave them breakfast (enriched BBS) about an hour ago. They ate a little slower this morning, I suspect it's because of the late and big dinner last night. I did notice a change in the 20L babes during their breakfast. The largest (of 3) seemed more interested in chasing the other two rather than eating. It didn't hinder the ones being chased as they ate full meals (cyclop eeze and a little bit of enriched ABS). The chaser only nibbled on some cyclops. I think I'm going to add some dry rock and pvc to give them more room for establishing territories.

During a WC yesterday I noticed the 20L water becoming quite yellow. I added a sack of carbon and stopped dumping in excess food. Now that they associate me w/ food and are comfortable eating cyclops, they aren't so picky and I can limit the amounts I offer but still get their bellies nice and plump.

[Europhyllia]

I added a sack of carbon

Sounds great. You should join our activated carbon discussion in the reef book club group!

[justahobby]

Update :D

I added a female juvenile to my main display last week and today I discovered my adult male trying to spawn with her. He's a little premature on his timing, but now I know he will be ready as soon as she is! I thought he was trying to fight at first by tail slapping. I got worried that the juvie might have been a male, but then I realized what he was doing was shivering (like a pee dance) and then he would go under her looking for eggs to scoop up! It's Awesome day!

[Europhyllia]

Fantastic!
lol@pee dance

[txav8r]

That's great news Justin! Keep us posted

[Mr Cob]

Awesome Justadude! Can't wait to see some pics already!~ :)

[txg8gxp]

That's awesome, hahaha "pee dance" that's funny. I have to say, the interaction between pairing fish is very cool. I hope everything works out good for you.

[Kristy]

Nice work! Glad to see this thread updated with positive news.

You guys LOL'd at the pee dance.... what got me was the male's "premature timing." He's just being optimistic :)!

[justahobby]

Nice work! Glad to see this thread updated with positive news.

You guys LOL'd at the pee dance.... what got me was the male's "premature timing." He's just being optimistic :)!


He's just practicing up for the big day.... And practicing indeed! He broke for lunch and went straight back to business! It makes me wonder how long he's been attempting during the day since I am usually gone. I am trying to get a pic of video, but he's apparently camera shy : (

[Kristy]

Hey Justin, I was just perusing the forums on MASNA and came across this discussion in which Matt Pedersen highly recommends feeding PE Mysis to prepare the banggais for breeding form. Thought you would find that helpful if you aren't already doing so.

http://www.masna.org/Forums/tabid/114/aft/732/Default.aspx

[justahobby]

Thanks Kristy. I had heard about PM mysis. I haven't used PM mysis but am soaking my food w/ brightwell's version of selcon: "amino plus" or something to that effect.

My adult male tried for the better part of the day to spawn, but nothing today. I guess he finally realized that she "has a headache".

[kkiel02]

Any updates? I cant wait for some baby pics. I remember the ones at gcreef and they were pretty cool especially so small.

[Pennies2Cents]

Hey Justin,

This thread has been one of my favorite. :) Honestly after my 1st initial post in this thread, Ross & I decided to buy 4 BC.. :) Pretty large and healthy... I dont think they were tank raised but they were/are nice none the less. :)

Its been a while since I noticed one of them carrying orange things in its mouth.. come to find out they were eggs... lots of them.. It had been a couple days since I had seen them but I was looking the other day and noticed baby bc's. eyes and lots of them.. yippeee... I would have never known. Thinking of putting them both in our Biocube... But then again maybe just letting nature take its course.

Sorry to hijack your thread but I had to announce my happy news somewhere! :)

Much luck on getting your pair to mate and having babies. :)

[kkiel02]

WOW congrats. So when will these be available to purchase? jk, well kinda.

[justahobby]

No updates here. I haven't been home during the day which is when I noticed the male attempting to spawn. So I don't know if he is still trying or what.

Heey, that is awesome!!! Please give me/us some more info! You kinda left me hanging lol.
I haven't heard of much luck with letting nature take it's course because of their feeding demands.

[jrnannery]

Updates?

[Mr Cob]

yeah...updates dude? I still want some babies from you..........cardinals. :Timeout: