gorg questions

[saabtech]

got a couple quick questions.
what do you feed your gorgs with?

the first pic is from a spot feeding of prawn eggs. (look close you can see them getting swallowed up)
i also feed some live brine (when Stephen has a batch)
and DT's along with smashed up brine/mysis/veggies and i have seen new growth.

what do you clean your gorgs with?

i get some surface algae under the polyps and that really gets them mad. i neglected it some and had a little tissue damage but after a very soft bristle tooth brush action. every thing is looking better.

the second pic is just hungry extended polyps.

[justahobby]

Mine goes through spurts of collecting algae. Turkey baster and manually with my hand has been the best results. I've read and witnessed that they rely more on phytoplankton than say sps. I don't get much reaction when feeding rotifers but the respond very well when I am target feeding phyto.

Europhyllia will probably have more definite answers for you.

[justahobby]

When in doubt, resort to the advanced aquarists' handbook:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/3/inverts


Sadly, there are not many studies on the natural diet or feeding behaviors of gorgonians on coral reefs at all. The studies that have been done suggest that most gorgonians likely feed on a variety of small plankton, detritus, marine snow, phytoplankton and even bacteria (e.g., Coma et al. 1994, Ribes et al. 1998, 1999). Although these studies suggest that gorgonians will take a variety of prey items, all prey items consumed by gorgonians in the wild are very small, and gorgonians eat a lot of them. In fact, based on the studies cited in this article, I would go so far as to say any gorgonians kept in aquaria require some food, regardless of whether they contain symbiotic zooxanthellae or not.
I say this because even gorgonians with photosynthetic symbionts (such as the commonly imported Plexaura, or Eunicea species) are capable of capturing and ingesting a considerable number of small to medium-sized zooplankton (in the approximate range of 5 - 700 micrometers).

[Europhyllia]

I use a sea squirt to feed them and a sea squirt to blow off stuff. I have a soft tooth brush for tough cases but mostly I just use the sea squirt.
Mine don't seem to be excited about rotifers either.
Prawn eggs, oyster eggs, etc.
I use Fauna Marin Seafan foods but be prepared for some cyano if you don't use teh clay with it. They love it and I use it especially when I want to tempt new corals but the resulting cyano is not much fun.
I have been culturing my own phyto and dose that but I also just ordered more EZ-eggs (decapsulated hatchable brine eggs) and algae paste from BSD and can't wait to try it. :)

Now I am even growing bacterial plankton with my NP biopellet reactor!

[justahobby]

....Use the clay w/ it?

[Europhyllia]

http://faunamarindirect.com/proddetail.php?prod=FM64776

[Kristy]

Kevin,
Dr. Ron Shimek just finished an amazing study on gorg feeding, which he presented at DFWMas Next Wave this past weekend. I took copious notes and will share tomorrow bc I'm on this crazy laptop with typing problems. Someone remind me if I forget.

[saabtech]

please share Kristy.

i just posted this yesterday and i spoke of some tissue recession. i wish i had taken a pic because it is gone tonight. the area of tissue recession was covering 1/2 the diameter of the stock and in two location of about 1/4 inch long. i must be doing something right because they have healed in one day (24 hrs)

[Europhyllia]

That's amazing!
Beautiful gorg by the way!

[Kristy]

Nice work Kevin!

I O U one Dr. Ron writeup! (after dinner...) :)

[Kristy]

So Dr. Ron was the first speaker at DFWMas Next Wave and gave a very informative presentation on some research he's been doing on feeding gorgonians. Here are his findings.

Main points:

In nature, each gorgonian polyp eats up to 8 times a day, grabbing food that is being delivered on currents that are up to 132,000 gallons per hour. No way we can replicate that.
Food particles need to have particular shape / size / flavor or will be rejected by the gorg polyps.
The flow needs to be laminar and high velocity, but in a predictable direction (not turbulent), flowing from behind the polyps, not into the polyps. The shape of the polyp itself breaks the current and creates a little vortex that sucks the food particle into the polyp.
Frequency and amount of food offered is more important than the mixture of food itself.
Recommended food is a mixture of phytoplankton, oyster eggs, and artemia cysts. Baby brine shrimp also appreciated.
Target feeding is not really effective.
Super glue can kill gorgonians.
Hope that's helpful!

[Europhyllia]

Super glue can kill gorgonians.
can you elaborate on that?

[Kristy]

Well, at the very end of the presentation, Dr. Ron mentioned that he lost his whole test group of gorgonians after his experiment concluded, due to gluing some frags with super glue and then he found out that it will kill the coral.

In MY experience (considerably less than Dr. Ron's experience!!!), I have seen gorgonians that were attached with glue and it did not seem to be an issue, but maybe there was something different going on with his conditions.

Scientific Coral Farms gives a very nice set of specific instructions on their website about how to frag gorgonians, by drilling a hole in the rock, stripping the flesh off the gorgonian down to the coral skeleton, inserting it into the rock and gluing it into the hole in the rock - and they propagate gorgonians all day long.

In light of Dr. Ron's findings, I might try that with putty if I ever got the courage to frag a gorg (I'm such a chicken about fragging!).

[Europhyllia]

check out the GARF site, Kristy. They tried out different ways to do this and wrote about each one. They concluded that stripping and then super glueing was the way to go.

[drunkenclam]

So Dr. Ron was the first speaker at DFWMas Next Wave and gave a very informative presentation on some research he's been doing on feeding gorgonians. Here are his findings.

Main points:

In nature, each gorgonian polyp eats up to 8 times a day, grabbing food that is being delivered on currents that are up to 132,000 gallons per hour. No way we can replicate that.
Food particles need to have particular shape / size / flavor or will be rejected by the gorg polyps.
The flow needs to be laminar and high velocity, but in a predictable direction (not turbulent), flowing from behind the polyps, not into the polyps. The shape of the polyp itself breaks the current and creates a little vortex that sucks the food particle into the polyp.
Frequency and amount of food offered is more important than the mixture of food itself.
Recommended food is a mixture of phytoplankton, oyster eggs, and artemia cysts. Baby brine shrimp also appreciated.
Target feeding is not really effective.
Super glue can kill gorgonians.

Hope that's helpful!

very interesting. can you expand on what the good doctor has a Ph.D/M.D. on? and where we might his publications?

[Kristy]

very interesting. can you expand on what the good doctor has a Ph.D/M.D. on? and where we might his publications?

Well, I don't have his bio in front of me but it would be easy enough for anyone to look up. Have you never heard of Dr. Ron Shimek?

[Kristy]

This was his latest research which he is in the process of publishing, so reportedly these findings are not yet in print but should be within the year. That was why he was sharing them at DFWMas Next Wave. He has plenty of other research that has been published.

[Kristy]

Here you go... found his bio:
http://www.ronshimek.com/about.html

Appears to be a PhD...

[drunkenclam]

Well, I don't have his bio in front of me but it would be easy enough for anyone to look up. Have you never heard of Dr. Ron Shimek?

No. I have not. My research on organic synthesis does not correlate to reef keeping. As a scientist I find contradictions in the notes you have posted. I was not there for the presentation so can only go by your notes. As for a bio on Dr. Shimek I would conclude his credentials would or should have been posted in any pamphlet/schedule handed out. As I find time I will research publications for Dr. Shimek.

[Kristy]

The notes that I shared were meant to summarize the research that was presented at the conference and are by no means a scientific abstract. Perhaps my lack of affiliation with the researcher was unclear. I thought there were a couple of points that address the issue of optimum feeding of the gorgonian coral that might be helpful to Kevin, who was asking about the feeding of gorgonians in the original post.

I certainly may have made errors in my note-taking, so I would encourage you to contact Dr. Ron Shimek yourself, or attend one of his upcoming speaking engagements if you would like to learn more about his research. I'm sure he would be more than happy to address any concerns you have about the vailidity of his research.

[drunkenclam]

The notes that I shared were meant to summarize the research that was presented at the conference and are by no means a scientific abstract. Perhaps my lack of affiliation with the researcher was unclear. I thought there were a couple of points that address the issue of optimum feeding of the gorgonian coral that might be helpful to Kevin, who was asking about the feeding of gorgonians in the original post.

I certainly may have made errors in my note-taking, so I would encourage you to contact Dr. Ron Shimek yourself, or attend one of his upcoming speaking engagements if you would like to learn more about his research. I'm sure he would be more than happy to address any concerns you have about the vailidity of his research.

I have e-mailed Dr. Shimek in regards to the fore mentioned research. Thank you.

[Kristy]

I hope that you will share with us what you are attempting to clarify with Dr. Shimek and what you are able to find out from him.

It occurred to me that if the issue is with my abbreviated note-taking, perhaps there is something that I could clarify?

[drunkenclam]

As i have said. i was not there for the presentation. so * In nature, each gorgonian polyp eats up to 8 times a day, grabbing food that is being deliverd on currents that are up to 132,000 gallons per hour. No way we can replicate that. no. we won't match 132k per hour. increase the "food" concentration by 10k at 1300gph and it evens out. i won't even get near 8 times a day, let alone per polyp, and how that is measured. that is a question for the Dr. I would like to go on about frequency and amount but my corals are out of dog food........since mixture don't matter.

[Kristy]

Yes, in that case... details such as "the mixture of food does not matter" were issues that he did elaborate on and I just offered a very short-hand summary of a 1.5 hour presentation. I was also assuming (dangerous, I know!) that our readers here could use some common sense and would refer to the recommended foods specified in the notes.

Also, he does point out that offering increased amount and frequency of food is the best we can do, which may have not been as clear in my notes as you would have liked. As I took the time and trouble to jot something down, it did not occur to me that this would be subjected to such scrutiny. I just tried to be accurate and to pass along some good info about what could be fed and how, specific info on best placement / currents.

Drunkenclam, do you keep gorgonians? Have you had any luck with them? Are they the NPS variety or the photosynthetic kind? What have you found that helps in feeding them?

[Europhyllia]

saabtech, not sure if that's helpful but there's a guy named Jens Kallmeyer that has kept gorgonians successfully for several years. He's active on RC.
Since I am interested in keeping them alive in the aquarium, he's kind of the guy I try to get ideas from since he's been very successful in doing just that -alive and growing in the aquarium. :)
However with you being able to regrow lost tissue in just a day I might PM you from now on! ;)

[saabtech]

first off thanks Kristy for all the info and links. good stuff.
second thanks to everyone else and all there valuable input and interesting dialog.
i spoke of some tissue recession that has healed very rapidly and i said that i wish i had a pic. well last night i found a remnant of some damage and took a pic. and tonight i took a pic of the same thing. i tried to get the same focus/zoom/lighting etc. but thats hard to do from day to day.

here are the pics. one from march 4 at around 9 pm and one from march 5 at 9pm.

[hobogato]

definitely looks like it healed up - you must be doing something right!

[drunkenclam]

Yes, in that case... details such as "the mixture of food does not matter" were issues that he did elaborate on and I just offered a very short-hand summary of a 1.5 hour presentation. I was also assuming (dangerous, I know!) that our readers here could use some common sense and would refer to the recommended foods specified in the notes.

Also, he does point out that offering increased amount and frequency of food is the best we can do, which may have not been as clear in my notes as you would have liked. As I took the time and trouble to jot something down, it did not occur to me that this would be subjected to such scrutiny. I just tried to be accurate and to pass along some good info about what could be fed and how, specific info on best placement / currents.

Drunkenclam, do you keep gorgonians? Have you had any luck with them? Are they the NPS variety or the photosynthetic kind? What have you found that helps in feeding them?

I know i am seen like a arse around here but I do prefer eccentric. I questioned you on the info you posted as i was intrigued. The comments you posted left me with questions. yes, common sense as required foods was understood as u assumed. i have/had no issues with your "cliff notes" just the gaps between. so i await the reply from my e-mail.

yes, i keep both photo and non-photo gorgs as well as sponge. they do well. some better than others but they live with my food mixture. fell free t pm for the recipe i use if intrested. and if i am not banned by then :angel:

[hobogato]

actually, i am interested dc. could you post it here? right now i am feeding mine rotifers, cyclops, prawn eggs, live baby brine and live phyto, but i am always up for suggestions.

now, if i dont like your recipe, you can expect the ban hammer! :lauging:
(i am just joking of course)

[drunkenclam]

actually, i am interested dc. could you post it here? right now i am feeding mine rotifers, cyclops, prawn eggs, live baby brine and live phyto, but i am always up for suggestions.

now, if i dont like your recipe, you can expect the ban hammer! :lauging:
(i am just joking of course)

my pleasure Mr. Prez, just don't ban hammer me if you disagree........:lauging:
200mL ro/di
1g coral-frenzy
1g photoplankton (e.s.v. sprayed-dried)
1g cyclop-eeze (argent - whole freeze dried)
1g prime reef (ocean nutrition)
1g formula two (ocean nutrition)
1mL coral amino (brightwell aquatics)
2mL oyster feast (reef nutrition)
1mL each phyto-plus a & b (microbe-lift)

blend (use the kitchen blender, then duck for cover from the wife) above well...very well.

pour into storage container.

rinse blender with 200ml ro/di and pour into storage container.

feed 10mL for every 100 gallons of display.

that's how i do it. my sponges/seafans/ gorgos (filter feeders only) maintain their health. photo/filter gorgos show noticeable growth. keep in mind these species are slow growing by nature. but you know that. if you have clams they will double up in size under a year. this is, of course, my experience. your mileage my vary. BEST part of this hobby IMHO. do keep in mind, for any on lookers, that this is a lot of FOOD. it may not seem as so but at a microscopic level you just dropped a dead fish in your tank. your skimmer will slow down from the amino acids form the e.s.v. and brightwell if you include it. so water changes will matter here. i've rambeled long enough. in end, i will say thank you to you, mr.hobo and the pennies center, for their responses and pm's to my post. you show respect and open mind in to my post even if in disagreement. the mod's could only wish to have such diplomacy. good day

[drunkenclam]

my pleasure Mr. Prez, just don't ban hammer me if you disagree........:lauging:
200mL ro/di 1g coral-frenzy 1g photoplankton (e.s.v. sprayed-dried) 1g cyclop-eeze (argent - whole freeze dried) 1g prime reef (ocean nutrition) 1g formula two (ocean nutrition) 1mL coral amino (brightwell aquatics) 2mL oyster feast (reef nutrition) 1mL each phyto-plus a & amp; b (microbe-lift) blend (use the kitchen blender, then duck for cover from the wife) above well...very well. pour into storage container. rinse blender with 200ml ro/di and pour into storage container. feed 10mL for every 100 gallons of display. that's how i do it. my sponges/seafans/ gorgos (filter feeders only) maintain their health. photo/filter gorgos show noticeable growth. keep in mind these species are slow growing by nature. but you know that. if you have clams they will double up in size under a year. this is, of course, my experience. your mileage my vary. BEST part of this hobby IMHO. do keep in mind, for any on lookers, that this is a lot of FOOD. it may not seem as so but at a microscopic level you just dropped a dead fish in your tank. your skimmer will slow down from the amino acids form the e.s.v. and brightwell if you include it. so water changes will matter here. i've rambeled long enough. in end, i will say thank you to you, mr.hobo and the pennies center, for their responses and pm's to my post. you show respect and open mind in to my post even if in disagreement. the mod's could only wish to have such diplomacy. good day

uggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh...that is the ugliest reply to a post ever. i thought i formatted better than that. i should be banned for that mess, lol. can someone clean it up for me? ohh wait, who would wanna help me....................

[saabtech]

looks like good information to me.
i have went out and purchased some of this food in order to accommodate the coral.

[hobogato]

thanks dc. i have never used the amino additives, but may try some next time i mix up food. btw, i am gonna start a photo thread for non photosynthetics - would be great if you would post some pics of yours along with everyone else.