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View Full Version : Closed Loop designs and blueprinting feedback



jesserettele
Wed, 27th Jan 2010, 11:00 PM
I am in the process of designing a closed loop system. I have read what I could find on-line and on MAAST. I would like to get some ideas, feedback, personal experiences, problems, solutions, and examples of designs from those who would be so kind as to share.

I have a 75 display that I would like to invest time and energy into the design and blueprint to give myself as much possible success with as little effort as possible in the future. I have another 75 that will be my sump/fuge. I am of course on a budget but am willing to consider any option.

My goal is to have a closed loop system that will prevent me from having to use power heads. I don’t want any dead spots and want as much flow as possible to allow me to have as much flexibility as possible for a mixed reef. I want something quiet, reliable and nothing above the rimless tank that will not have a canopy. Stating the obvious, I do understand that the sump/fuge is completely separate and will have a consistent 500-700 gph all on its own. I probably will have a foam bottom, not sand media, with a foam background.

My plan( let me see if I can draw this with words);
I am planning on purchasing an OM 4 way (when I can afford it, unless there is a better option) to go with the panworld 200ps that I already have. I will have 1 ½” plumbing out of the tank into the CL pump, 1 ½” out to the OM, and then 1” out of the OM to each of the 4 1” bulkheads in the bottom of the tank.
1.The out (output supplying the CL pump) will be in the center towards the bottom in a cave that I am going to build. It will have a 2” X 6” strainer attached to a 1 ½” bulk head going to the CL pump.
2.The cave in the center bottom of the tank will connect to a tunnel along the back and bottom of the tank to each end where it will empty forward back into the main part of the tank.
3.The OM will split into 4 1” inputs that will go to each corner on the bottom of the tank glass and come up through 1” bulk heads.
4.The back 2 will be split into 2 more 1” input lines after the 1” bulkheads, one having an immediate forward facing ¾” lockline spray nozzle to move water out of the tunnel along the back of the tank forward into the main part of the tank, and the other running up the back corners and terminating half way up the tank with another ¾” lockline facing forward/middle.
5.The front two inputs from the OM will be split into 2 more 1” input lines after the 1” bulkheads, one having an immediate rear/middle/up facing ¾” lockline from the corners of the floor of the tank, the other 1” lines running in the front on the floor towards the center and terminating with ¾” locklines facing towards the back/up.
I intend to aim all lockline nozzles to hit the corals and live rock. There will be a total of 8 ¾” locklines from 4 each 1” input lines all coming from the OM that supplies one input line with water pressure at a time. So essentially the 1750 gph will be split into 2 nozzles at any given time in the tank but from one corner of the tank at a time.

Why closed loop (my opinions)?
1.I don’t like to look of power heads.
2.I do like the options of plumbing and aiming flow in any direction that I choose, specifically at any live rock or coral.
3.Ability to have a controller or diverter valve to create sporadic water movements, fine tuned control with different flow pattern drums, side to side, or one corner at a time.
4.I am not scared to drill glass and all 5 pieces of glass of my 75 are not tempered.
5.I have a 1750 gph external pump and 6 1” sch 80 bulk heads, so the cost would a little lower than power heads.
6.No wires in the tank, no heat from the motors (I know that vortechs don’t apply and any external pump will also add some heat).
7.Nothing to be caught up in and ground up in like a power head.
8.Not as severe algae growth slowing gph like power heads.

Options that I have read about and am considering so far (which one is worth it);
1.Oceans motions 4 way (magnetic drive) $400.00 for 1
2.Two SCWD 1” (not tuneable/adjustable and will always have the 1750 gph divided by 2 at each spray nozzle) $200.00 for 2.
3. Oceans Motions Revolutions ( would have to be at the rear top of the tank facing forward, wouldn’t like the look) $150 for 4.
4. Sea Swirl (would have to be at the rear top of the tank facing forward, wouldn’t like the look) $470 for 2.
5.Straight plumbed (really cuts down the flow of the 1750 gph by how ever many spray nozzles, and no way to simulate alternating current).
6.Make my own electrically driven diverter valve from parts that I have found and hope it works (we all know why it’s not the best idea to do this) $100.00.

I borrowed and attached some sample pics of inspiration CL plumbing that I found on another site.

jesserettele
Wed, 27th Jan 2010, 11:00 PM
Questions that I have about closed loops;

1.What is the optimal/maximal flow per spray nozzle in a closed loop system and overall? Is there ever too much?
2.What is the optimal design, i.e. what directions should nozzles be facing towards coral, or pushing from behind out? One nozzle pointing in each direction of the tank? What pattern should the current in a tank mimic, i.e. fig 8? Bottom up? Top down? Side to side?
3.What size plumbing and bulkheads?
4.Is a 1750 gph pump big enough(actual 1500 or less by the time head pressure and length of plumbing are factored in)?
5.Should the output into the CL pump be designed different?

Double-O-Zilch
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 09:43 AM
I have no idea what you're talking about. I do know that option #4 ends wrong, it should be priceless!:rofl:

Bill S
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 10:36 AM
Jesse,

A couple of things. The reason why people use tunzes, and other in-the-tank circulation is that they are so much more efficient. When I plumbed my tank, I thought a couple of 1250 gph closed loops and an 1800gph return would be fine. It wasn't even close. I added 2 2600gph seios, and it WAS enough - but that DOUBLED my circulation from 2 external and 1 internal pump. And the 2 Seios probably use less electricity than a single external pump.

Another tip is that I set my entire system on a clockwise (from the top) flow. Once you get water moving, it takes a LOT less energy to keep it moving. This ensured that I had NO dead spots in the tank - I mean NONE. I had clean sand all the time. The center of the tank had a shear where moving water came together. This created some interesting eddies in the middle of the tank. Great for SPS growth, and the fish LOVED to ride the rides.

SaltyJim
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 11:35 AM
I have no idea about the design, but the kid in the first pic seems to have a handle on things.

justahobby
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 12:07 PM
I have no idea about the design, but the kid in the first pic seems to have a handle on things.

:rofl: That is a kid with priorities

txav8r
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 12:16 PM
ROFL

jesserettele
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 01:35 PM
:rofl: That is a kid with priorities


ROFL


I have no idea about the design, but the kid in the first pic seems to have a handle on things.

Yes, I can't believe this kid's Dad actually got an action shot like this. I was going to crop him out but it was way too cool.

Roo&Lis
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 01:36 PM
LMAO!!!!! I didn't even notice!

jesserettele
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 01:43 PM
Jesse,

A couple of things. The reason why people use tunzes, and other in-the-tank circulation is that they are so much more efficient. When I plumbed my tank, I thought a couple of 1250 gph closed loops and an 1800gph return would be fine. It wasn't even close. I added 2 2600gph seios, and it WAS enough - but that DOUBLED my circulation from 2 external and 1 internal pump. And the 2 Seios probably use less electricity than a single external pump.

Another tip is that I set my entire system on a clockwise (from the top) flow. Once you get water moving, it takes a LOT less energy to keep it moving. This ensured that I had NO dead spots in the tank - I mean NONE. I had clean sand all the time. The center of the tank had a shear where moving water came together. This created some interesting eddies in the middle of the tank. Great for SPS growth, and the fish LOVED to ride the rides.

So did you leave the two large external CL pumps along with the 2 seios power heads? It sounds like I need another external pump but it needs to be A LOT BIGGER, or just scrap the idea and hate looking at the power heads in the tank everyday that are more efficient?

You also have a 215 gallon vs. my 75, I am not sure how that changes things but I am sure there is a factor there.

I like your idea about moving the water in a clockwise or counter clockwse motion. Wasn't it Newton's 1st and 2nd laws that are in motion staying at motion and adding force to an already moving object increases its velocity?

ctcoral has a tunze wave maker and it is amazing at how little it can be adjusted and the entire wave disappears despite the tunze still blowing full force. It is all about timing.

txg8gxp
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 02:17 PM
I looked into the closed looped idea...(looked into) You have to run way to big of a pump, too much plumping etc. By the time it is alll said and done you can just get a tunze or vortech system, with no work. If the tank was say 250g plus, I would go for it but not on anything smaller. Just my 2 cents.

jesserettele
Thu, 28th Jan 2010, 02:25 PM
All of his OM diverter valves are electronically controlled via magnetic drive and none of them have anything going through the valve and don't use any shaft seals.

I just got off the phone with OM after discussing all of their options and units available. I originaly quoted $400 for the 4 way which is correct but only for large tanks that will be using up to 7500 gph. THis unit is very large and has the internal drum configured so that it allows two of the four return lines to be pressurized at a time which splits the total gph of the pump in half right away. The super squirt is a smaller unit that handles up to 2500 gph and has a drum configuration (version 1) to allow only one of the four return lines to be pressurized at a time allowing full pump gph potential to be used per return line. This drum version is also ideal to create teh clock wise or counter clock wise flow direction in the tank since only one return line is flowing at a time. The super squirt for pumps up to 2500 gph is $260.

The revolutions are return jets that can be mounted anywhere on or in the tank upside down or right side up. They spray in a number of specified directions and change direction in 22 degree incriments. The down side is that they require the water flowing through them to pulse (on then off, then on then off) in order to work and rotate.

hobogato
Sat, 30th Jan 2010, 03:34 PM
sorry i am so late getting to this jesse, but i finally had a chance to take some pics of my simple closed loop.

i am not sure how much this will help you, since my goal is a lower flow tank that will keep a variety of corals happy (some that need low flow) and a setup that is safe for cuttlefish. i should also note that i am running a tunze wavebox on this tank as well.

one thing i would like to reiterate is bill's suggestion for gyre type flow. it works the best if there is open water all the way around your rockwork.

notice in this pic, the outlet of my closed loop is split and arranged so that i get a counterclockwise flow around my entire tank. (please excuse the algae buildup, i am have a small cycle from tearing the tank down last week to remove the damsels)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06120.jpg
here is another pic of that from the back
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06122.jpg

this is the inlet for my closed loop, the foam is to keep it safe for cuttlefish (when i finally get some in the tank)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06121.jpg

and here it is underneath
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06123.jpg

one other piece of advice is to make sure you have ball valves to close off the water flow for pump and component removal for cleaning. i am sure you already noticed that in your research, i just wanted to emphasize its importance.

txg8gxp
Sat, 30th Jan 2010, 08:42 PM
Man, that would suck to forget the valves. Talk about a pain in the butt...

jesserettele
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 11:22 AM
Thanks ace. Your rock work is not touching the back and you get water flow 360 degrees? That CL return is in the center and the way you aimed the lockline creates the counter clockwise water rotation constantly? What gph is your pump?


sorry i am so late getting to this jesse, but i finally had a chance to take some pics of my simple closed loop.

i am not sure how much this will help you, since my goal is a lower flow tank that will keep a variety of corals happy (some that need low flow) and a setup that is safe for cuttlefish. i should also note that i am running a tunze wavebox on this tank as well.

one thing i would like to reiterate is bill's suggestion for gyre type flow. it works the best if there is open water all the way around your rockwork.

notice in this pic, the outlet of my closed loop is split and arranged so that i get a counterclockwise flow around my entire tank. (please excuse the algae buildup, i am have a small cycle from tearing the tank down last week to remove the damsels)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06120.jpg
here is another pic of that from the back
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06122.jpg

this is the inlet for my closed loop, the foam is to keep it safe for cuttlefish (when i finally get some in the tank)
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06121.jpg

and here it is underneath
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06123.jpg

one other piece of advice is to make sure you have ball valves to close off the water flow for pump and component removal for cleaning. i am sure you already noticed that in your research, i just wanted to emphasize its importance.

hobogato
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 12:18 PM
yessir, rock is in the middle and does not touch any side of the tank. constant counterclockwise movement from the 1200gph or so pump

here is a top down shot to illustrate it
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06135.jpg

corkyGramma
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 01:31 PM
I really like Ace's system. He built the tank himself, its low to the ground (very accessible), and more box like than rectangular. So its a walk around tank with no pipes or cords in sight. Simple Sophistication:hypnotyized:

hobogato
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 02:08 PM
thanks yvonne, but i didnt build the glass tank, just everything else :)

jesserettele
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 02:16 PM
What are the black tube lookng things below? There are three on the RT and 2 on the LT towards the back. Is this more secrets to great flow?


yessir, rock is in the middle and does not touch any side of the tank. constant counterclockwise movement from the 1200gph or so pump

here is a top down shot to illustrate it
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c329/hobogato/cuttle%20lagoon/DSC06135.jpg

jesserettele
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 02:38 PM
I kinda like this idea since I want to do some aqua scaping with framework and could hide the closed loop within. Has anybody done something like this? successful or not?
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad302/Jesserettele/plumbing%20ideas/2547250440_792b5328a2_o.jpg?t=1264966613

hobogato
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 03:25 PM
those are mangrove pods. lots of roots on em, but no leaves yet

jesserettele
Sun, 31st Jan 2010, 04:38 PM
LOL, thanks! Macro in the display with SPS, nice.