Using Chemi Pure?

[justahobby]

I found a link to this thread on RC while doing some homework avoidance and thought it should be shared:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705322&highlight=chemi+pure

Here's the core to what he wrote when asked about using chemi pure:

"The so called synthetic media is a ion exchange resin like in a RO/DI unit. So, it is useless in seawater. ..................
Do you know how you regenerate a DI resin that removes ammonium ? You use table salt and seawater is 85 % table salt. So, how is that going to work by magic ?" - Boomer

[Europhyllia]

Interesting. I use Polyfilter and was actually quite happy with it. I believe that's a ion exchange resin as well isn't it?
Looking forward to what corruption has to say about this.

[justahobby]

I believe poly filters are absorbents

[FireWater]

Interesting. I am really wanting to look into this alot more. Any ideas where to start more research? I know how I am going to waste away some time at work tomorrow

[justahobby]

At the beginning of the softening cycle, sodium ions occupy the resin's exchange sites. As water passes through it, the resin's stronger attraction for the hardness ions causes it to take on the hardness ions and give up its sodium ions. Iron and manganese are considered hardness and they are removed also, provided they are in solution. Ion exchange cannot remove suspended matter.

As water flows downward through the resin bed, the resin at the top of the bed gives up its sodium first. The exchange process is not instantaneous, so exchange occurs in a band called a "reaction zone". The reaction zone's depth depends on incoming water hardness and TDS, flow rate, water temperature and resin particle size. When the reaction zone's leading edge reaches the bottom of the resin bed and hardness passed into the service line, the resin has become "exhausted" and it must be regenerated before it can remove hardness again.

The regeneration cycle starts with backwash, an upward flow that loosens the resin bed and flushes out suspended particles. Backwash usually lasts about 10 minutes.

Regeneration occurs when a solution of sodium chloride (salt) brine is passed through the resin in a downward direction. An eductor draws concentrated brine from a storage tank and dilutes it to the right concentration. Brine draws lasts from 10 to 30 minutes depending on salt dosage (weight of salt per volume of resin). A large excess of sodium ions causes the resin to release its hold on hardness ions picked up during the preceding service cycle and returns the resin to its sodium state.

Excerpt taken from here:
http://www.culliganmiami.com/pf7.html

I'm still in the beginning stages of learning chemistry but my take on it is this:

Chemi pure starts out with a saturated sodium state. Submersing the media into an (and I qoute boomer) "85% table salt" solution saturates the media causing it to re-release everything that has been taken up including ammonia, etc. To the SW hobbyist it is useless since the media never has a chance to absorb ammonia, metals, etc before becoming over-saturated.

[corruption]

I can't say that I disagree with any of the assertions in that thread -- except that theres not a readily available assay of ALL components within Chemi-Pure. I have had good luck with it -- even if it simply becomes biological media by the time I change it out. As others have posted in the thread, the convenience is nice to me. My preferred filtrant for anything specific is Poly-Filter -- its got a long, well documented history of benefits -- but I tend to use Chemi-Pure as well. I don't really consider them along the same lines -- I see Chemi-Pure as a convenient way to polish the water, whereas Poly-Filters are known to have a wide range of adsorbant qualities.

-Justin

[Big_Pun]

i dont know about all that fluffed up writing from culligan. i was having a hard time keeping my water clean and clear when i re setup my tank this went on for a month or 2 i really hate using fillter fiber, to me it just traps and holds on to stuff, also some of my levels where a lil high. i ask a local FS what would help and he handed some chemi pure elite, after 3 days of runing this my levels dropped and my water is crystal clear, also my corals seemed happier and where fully opening. i try to minimize any mechanical filtering i can in my tank so the only thing in my fuge is 2 bags of chemi pure elite, to me my tank and its inhabitants seem very happy. anyone is welcome to stop by and take a look

[Europhyllia]

just wanted to mention when we say 'Polyfilter' we don't mean the regular polyester fiber pads but rather Poly Filter by Poly Bio Marine (link (http://www.poly-bio-marine.com/poly%20filter%20faq.html))

[Big_Pun]

oh yea i know what polyfilter is, i just cant comment on it because i havent used it

[txmaverickmh]

+1 for Chemi Pure Elite, I have it in my seahorse tank and reef tank, and it seems to do something great!!!! Not sure what it really does, but I have seen great results with crystal clear water ever since! I also think it just had to do something with clearing up all the cyano in my seahorse tank...I didnt change anything except adding that little bag in the compartment of my Biocube after gabe told me to get it, and now there is no cyano anywhere!

MH

[jroescher]

I hope it works, I just ordered some.

[H2Ochem]

I found a link to this thread on RC while doing some homework avoidance and thought it should be shared:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1705322&highlight=chemi+pure

Here's the core to what he wrote when asked about using chemi pure:

"The so called synthetic media is a ion exchange resin like in a RO/DI unit. So, it is useless in seawater. ..................
Do you know how you regenerate a DI resin that removes ammonium ? You use table salt and seawater is 85 % table salt. So, how is that going to work by magic ?" - Boomer

:rofl:

[Richard]

Chemipure is a good product even though there is probably some false or at least overhyped advertising. In sw what your really getting with chemipure is a good quality carbon and with chemipure elite your getting a good quality carbon mixed with a GFO phosphate remover. It's certainly more expensive than buying a good quality bulk carbon and GFO seperately but some people like the convenience of chemipure.

[ErikH]

:rofl:

could you elaborate? It's better than just rofling.

[ErikH]

I read somewhere that better carbon is more porous or something like that? I think that's why CPE is so fragile, on the instructions it says to be soft with it.

[justahobby]

When carbon is "activated" hundreds if not thousands of micro pores are created providing a larger surface area. We are mostly used to seeing GAC and pellets but maybe they use PAC (powdered activated carbon). I've tried to find their ingredients list without success. I'm sure they have a chemical data sheet somewhere online.


I read somewhere that better carbon is more porous or something like that? I think that's why CPE is so fragile, on the instructions it says to be soft with it.

[justahobby]

I searched and googled to answer your question Karin and then I asked Randy Holmes-Farley. He told me Poly filters are comprised an organic polymer. They tend to do better at removing metals and not so hot at removing phosphates and nitrates. He also said that they limit the amount of copper taken out by adding an amount of copper to them along with other metals I can't recall right now. The purpose is to not depreciate the metal content lower than what's found in reefs. Kinda sketchy to prove in the real world but there it is.
: D

[Europhyllia]

Clear as mud! What did Holmes say about the Chemi Pure stuff? Did he know what the other components were?

[justahobby]

He didn't mention it in the other thread. Companies are required to maintain a facts data sheet regarding materials. They are called the MSDS's. Best bet is to email their customer service and ask for it. Might even mention you have kids and its important to know what you are working with.

[Europhyllia]

I am sort of getting the feeling that a combo of poly filter and phosban might do more for me than poly filter and chemi pure?

[corruption]

Karin: I would call that accurate, even with the lack of specific data regarding the contents of Chemi-Pure... PhosBan is much more targeted, and when used in conjunction with a media reactor, yields much more documented/recordable results. Chemi-Pure, to me, is one of those things that has never been a hindrance in my usage, so its just become my routine.

-Justin

[justahobby]

Whatever floats your boat lol. If its working for you, why change? I wasn't trying to change the masses, I thought the thread sounded very sound and informative.

Here's a guy that did some amateur research on GFO (phosban). I really like how well he documented and included pictures.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1182318

[Europhyllia]

PolyFilter has always been floating my boat. ;)
It did great things for me in the past with aluminum oxide removal. But I figured I can give the ChemiPure a try.
Even ChemiPure though says to use it in conjunction with my beloved poly filter so I was thinking why not just spend 30 bucks less and just go with Poly filter/Phosban when I am due for a refill.
I have seen algae disappearing since using ChemiPure but of course the Elite version has GFO in it so it might have been a large part of it.
Thanks for posting it. I have a degree in Marketing and yet I still fall victim to my own trade so frequently - how sad is that? ;)

[corruption]

Absolutely -- I agree 100%... Like I said earlier, I can't deny Boomer's assertions in the thread, I only know that I've seen at least snake oil-level benefit in my use. A conversation about what works for people -- and why it works -- is always a good thing. I was already looking into a media reactor or 2 after Ace's wonderful post, this has just been helping till the soil, if you will :)

-Justin

[justahobby]

Glad it helped guys n girls.

I'm running a media reactor w/ gfo and carbon ...... People say it's a waste to add carbon because you need to replace it more often. But I put it on top and it hasn't shifted into the GFO. I will scoop it out when ready and add more. I can't really comment on water clarity since I dose DOC and I'm not sure if the chicken or egg came first. I can say I have crystal clear water though lol.

[Europhyllia]

I like my media reactor too. Paul28 talked me into it. :D

[justahobby]

Were you running chemi pure in the reactor?

[Europhyllia]

chemi pure and phosban

[FireWater]

OK, I have been following along so I can figure what exactly I want to run in my reactor.

Why does carbon need to be changed out more frequently than GFO? If so then what should the intervals be in your opinion?

Also, I can't figure out DOC Justin

[justahobby]

DOC = Dissolved Organic Carbon e.g. vodka, vinegar, and or sugar dosing.


GFO (or my personal favorite "rust") seems to be able to absorb more organics compared to carbon thus less frequent changes. What's the difference between the two?................. Another good question lol

I added a link that tells about carbon in depth if your curious about how it works. The author does good until he starts explaining amounts to use and duration of use. Those parts sounded more opinionated than factual. GFO has a lot less reading material out there.

http://www.hallman.org/filter/gac.html

[FireWater]

I have been reading and researching a bunch and I am getting nowhere except more confused.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1776063
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1776287

[Europhyllia]

John
I was really resisting the use of GFO at first because I had had a horrible experience with an aluminum oxide based phosphate remover (some phosphate removers use GFO - iron oxide, some use aluminum oxide). It killed a nice big leather coral.
That's actually when I started using Poly Filters. I could really observe the leather corals bouncing back from the brink with the Poly Filter pulling out the aluminum. Improvement was very observable.
I definitely won't use aluminum based products again and was still nervous about GFO.
In the Chemi Pure instructions they say to put a poly filter before and after the chemi pure stuff I believe.
So I will continue to use the poly filter with some kind of GFO based product (might be Phosban, might be Chemi Pure Elite or even just bulk GFO).
I do like how it reduces algae a bit.
I have tank shots of the before and after media reactor HERE (http://maast.org/forums/showthread.php?t=56597&highlight=evolution). No reduction in feeding whatsoever.

[justahobby]

I also made sure to buy ferric oxide and not aluminum.

Firewater, I think what people fail to realize is just how well GFO really works. For example, if you put in the MFG recommended amount and your tank has been suffering from habitually high phosphates you might see problems arise w/ a sudden drop in the phosphates. As noted in the research article of GFO it can drop your levels within hrs. As far as fluctuating Alk, test often. I think they mention in one of those threads or articles that people will turn the reactor on for a short period and back off again to give livestock a chance to adjust.


Edit: The 4-6 months per change of GFO probably won't cut it if your levels are high. I think once you have achieved a target level you can begin using less (given you aren't adding a lot more phosphates back into the water). What a lot of people find out is that their rocks are leaching out for a long time after. My tank used to an aggressive FOWLR and phosphates were an issue. I went reef w/ rodi h2o and GHA vanished. In the last few months been seeing a leaching effect. Then my skimmer went offline for a couple weeks. That's why I chose GFO and carbon dosing. The GFO nipped in the bud while carbon dosing will continue to use up the excess, given I keep my skimmer in top condition lol. I plan on stopping DOC before I reach the ULN stage. It's not in my plans and requires too much time for me to enjoy.

[FireWater]

Wow, I did not think it was this difficult. So, if I run GFO I should be ok as long as I cut the dose and monitor levels? I ask because I am having phosphate and algae issues. I procured a new reactor and need what would be my best combo to run in it for my issues. Is the Poly Filter still needed if I run true GFO?

My next ?'s are on the benefits of running straight Phosban or quality carbon. I am still reading up on those. Thanks Karin and Justin

[Europhyllia]

Is the Poly Filter still needed if I run true GFO?

It's my security blanket ;)
I bet most people who run GFO have never heard of Poly Filter and are doing just fine. I feed heavily and need all the help I can get. :wink_smile:
Poly Filters change colors depending on what they take out. I know Farley said Poly Filter are not heavy hitters when it comes to organic waste but according to the colors Poly Filters definitely do take out a good portion for me.
I don't use it just to catch stray iron. I've used it way before I started GFO. Like corruption once said: "Poly Filter does what carbon is supposed to do only it does it better" or something like it.

[neogenix]

I run Chemipure Elite in both my RES (Turtle) Tank (in the FX5) and then Chemipure Elite in my saltwater tank. I didn't run it in the salt water tank originally, but as soon as I put it in, I noticed a huge difference. I've been toying with the idea of running it in a media reactor with some phosban, or even separate reactors for each... we'll see :)