Need some help with my sump

[Meslo]

Hi,
I hope this is the right spot for my first post.
I have wanted to set up a saltwater tank for YEARS just never got around to saving the cash to do it.

Well I recently did some work for someone and they lost there job, So I agreed to take there never set up 110 gal Aquarium. It was suposed to be a full system other than the sand and rock. I will have to go through all the boxes anad make a list of the parts and add it to this post.

Anyways. I made a stand and set up the aquarium on the patio to test it for leaks before I brought it in the house.

It has 2 holes on each back corner in the bottom of the tank. I ran one for the return and one for the drain on each side. Plumed the 2 pumps for the return and the other 2 to the sump im not sure what kind of sump it is there was no name but its about 12 x 24 x18 high the water flows through 3 drawers and then over a bio wheel.

I set the 2 pumps and the skimmer into the sump <its a real tight fit> then filled the tank with tap watter to check for leaks. After snuggging up one of the return bulkheads there were no leaks, But <aint there always a but> after the tank filled and the water started to flow into the 2 drain chambers it was clear that the sump was filling faster than the pumps were returning watter. If I plugged one of the drains then the pumps would soon drain the sump.

I assume that I should just get a reducer and make the drain hole smaller ? but wanted to ask before I did something stupid.

Also the 2 drain chambers would only fill to about 2-3" above the bulk head so all the watter falling down into them made alot of noise can I just make the reducer longer so it makes the actual drain hole close to the top of the tank? I hope that makes sence. I also did not plumb the chiller yet I frorgot about it before I started testing :) I really wanted to get this going asap. I assume the chiller will restrict the return flow a bit more so will install it before I do anything else.

Also it had a ro kit salt to make 200 gal of water. How long after I get it set up and the new water going should wait before adding live sand and rock?

Thanks a bunch for any info

[Meslo]

Parts List
2 K1 metal halide 400 watt with 10K metal halide bulbs
2 Reef Tec 4000 pumps 1050 gph
1 marineland 400watt submersible heater
1 Arctica 1/4 hp chiller
2 sps 14,000 400watt bulbs
the tank size is 60.5 Long 20 wide and 20.5 in deep
Kent Marine salt <200 gal worth>
kent marine ro50tfccl

digitemp2 thermometer

and in case I did not make it clear I have no idea what im doing ;) but I am reading and trying.

[aquasport24]

WELCOME TO MAAST:applause:
You don't have to run 2 return pumps, alot of us just run one.Two will create alot more heat ,especially the in-sump type. You can run one with the rating around 1200gph will be fine for 2 drains.You need to build a Stockman standpipe for your drains (no noise at all). Add a ball valve into your drain lines , so you can throttle it back some if it needs to. Add a ball valve to your return too just incase you need to throttle it back.

[aquasport24]

The more pictures you can post the better we can help you. And remember...there is no stupid questions..so ask away.:bigsmile:

[aquasport24]

What do you want to keep in the tank? fish only,mix reef tank, mix reef tank with small stony polyps? because you do have a very strong light setup.

[Mike]

Welcome to MAAST. Photos would help. I am not sure why you would have two drilled holes on each side. Possible for a closed loop set up? Otherwise you shouldn't be using two return pumps, sure to leave you with problems. Maybe some others with more experience in drilling/set up will jump in.

Welcome to the exciting, often frustrating, and totally addicting world of saltwater aquariums... :)

[Bill S]

Yeah, 1) welcome to MAAST and 2) some photos would help. Unless you are draining into an overflow of some kind, you don't want to plumb holes in your tank to the sump.

[jroescher]

My Oceanic, and probably lot's of others, are drilled with 2 holes on each side. One hole, the smaller, is for the return. The larger is for the drains.

Here is a picture that shows up on google: http://www.wax32.com/gear/overflow.jpg

There is some plumbing that your missing. DON'T RESTRICT THE DRAINS! Look up Stockman Drain or Durso Drain. When properly setup, your overflows should have water in them nearly to the top. Because the top of your plumbing is near the top.

[Meslo]

Ok here are some photos. Why are 2 return pumps bad ? I will be attempting a reef with fish coral and inverts. I probly posted the parts after your post but it came with 2 return pumps

When you say add a ball joint is that just one of the pvc valves with a barb threaded on each end so you can add it to the flex line ?



sump http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae187/aquajohn/046.jpg
sump http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae187/aquajohn/044.jpg
skimmer http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae187/aquajohn/047.jpg
tank back http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae187/aquajohn/045.jpg
tank front http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae187/aquajohn/043.jpg

[hobogato]

ok, the pictures help. imo, that sump is MUCH too small for that tank. the way the return lines are set up, you will drain about 3" from the tank into the sump if the power goes out. that sump would almost certainly overflow. i know, it has check valves in the return lines, but those are notorious for failing. btw, the water coming out the drain lines can't go faster than the water being pumped into the tank by the return pumps. your sump may also be too small to handle all of that flow from the two return pumps, causing a backup of water in the first chamber and also causing microbubbles when it is running.

[Meslo]

so for a 110 gal tank what would be a safe size sump ? And that sump also has the 3 filters and bio wheel.

Should I just dump the one I have and get another or can I just get a larger sump and set that one into the bigger one in case of power loss ? I work at a rotomolding shop and we make all kinds of plastic tanks and boxes safe for drinking water would one of those work ?


Thanks for taking the time to help me out

[hobogato]

so for a 110 gal tank what would be a safe size sump ? And that sump also has the 3 filters and bio wheel.

not sure what you mean here. what kind of filter does it have? bio-wheels are typically used in fresh water and on smaller marine tanks. not that it wont help with biological filtration, i just dont know that it will help that much on a marine tank this size.


Should I just dump the one I have and get another

if it were my tank, i would trade out that sump for the largest one i could fit in the stand. also, i would include a refugium in the new sump or separately.


or can I just get a larger sump and set that one into the bigger one in case of power loss ?

that would prevent a flood, but then when the power returned, there would not be enough water in the system and your return pump would likely run dry and possibly burn up.


I work at a rotomolding shop and we make all kinds of plastic tanks and boxes safe for drinking water would one of those work ?

i dont see why not, people use glass tanks, acrylic tanks, rubbermaid tanks and buckets for sumps.


Thanks for taking the time to help me out

no problem, that is what this organization is for :wink_smile:

[Meslo]

If I were to place this box into a bigger box and simply drill holes or cut out the front of the second chamber and put the return pumps into the larger box it would not flood and could then recover when the power came back on im just trying to not have to buy a new sump setup if this one will work without killing stuff.

ok im off to home depot to make my Durso Drain

I also think I figured out why it was flooding the sump <I am a idiot> because the 2 drain chambers in the tank were not filling up I left watter running into the tank. But now that I see how the durso drain works I think that problem will go away :)

[Europhyllia]

If I were to place this box into a bigger box and simply drill holes or cut out the front of the second chamber and put the return pumps into the larger box it would not flood and could then recover when the power came back on im just trying to not have to buy a new sump setup if this one will work without killing stuff.
:)

Okay why wouldn't you just leave the smaller sump out all together and use the bigger box as your sump?

[jroescher]

I don't think you want, or need, two return pumps. One of those pumps was probably for a closed loop. Remember reef tanks are set up a little differently than conventional aquariums.

Go here for some good explanations and diagrams of how it all works: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html It also shows what Ace is trying to explain about the sump overflowing or running dry.


There is a tank tour being planned soon. You really should try to make it, it would answer a lot of the questions you have when you see how some other members tanks are set up. Trust me, they can't wait to show you.

[jesserettele]

That was a great link, definately a favorite of mine.

Which forum will the tour be posted in? Thanks for the info.


I don't think you want, or need, two return pumps. One of those pumps was probably for a closed loop. Remember reef tanks are set up a little differently than conventional aquariums.

Go here for some good explanations and diagrams of how it all works: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html It also shows what Ace is trying to explain about the sump overflowing or running dry.


There is a tank tour being planned soon. You really should try to make it, it would answer a lot of the questions you have when you see how some other members tanks are set up. Trust me, they can't wait to show you.

[Meslo]

Okay why wouldn't you just leave the smaller sump out all together and use the bigger box as your sump?


I was sying that to keep the filter material in the loop. Is it not needed ?

Does the live rock and live sand act as a fillter and you dont need the mechanical filter that is currently in the small box I have now.

I think I may be making this harder than I need to

[Meslo]

thanks for the link that looks to be some great info now to go finish reading



I don't think you want, or need, two return pumps. One of those pumps was probably for a closed loop. Remember reef tanks are set up a little differently than conventional aquariums.

Go here for some good explanations and diagrams of how it all works: http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html It also shows what Ace is trying to explain about the sump overflowing or running dry.


There is a tank tour being planned soon. You really should try to make it, it would answer a lot of the questions you have when you see how some other members tanks are set up. Trust me, they can't wait to show you.

[phippsj]

+1 for the biggest sump you can get in there. I only have a 30G under my 180G tank. If I could redo my tank over again, the sump would DEFINATELY be changed out. You said you could make one... I think that is a great option. You can always sell the current sump you have here on MASST (which would probably work well for someone with a smaller tank). Depending on how much it would cost you to make it, perhaps you break even and get a better sump.



thanks for the link that looks to be some great info now to go finish reading

[Europhyllia]

I was sying that to keep the filter material in the loop. Is it not needed ?

Does the live rock and live sand act as a fillter and you dont need the mechanical filter that is currently in the small box I have now.

I think I may be making this harder than I need to

Meslo,
there are different approaches for different tanks. Reef tanks generally don't have the bioball media thing anymore. Most people now go with a filter sock, skimmer, then refugium, then return.
Personally I don't even have a filter sock.
You could easily get a filter sock assembly and just clamp it onto your big sump container, separate the different areas and don't cut up the current sump. As j mentioned you can resell the one you have to somebody with a small Fowler.
It's totally up to you but a nice big sump makes such a difference.
I used to have a 20g sump under my 125g tank and it didn't help much with pH swings (they were around 0.5). Then I upgraded to a 50g sump with a nice big refugium and the pH swing was reduced right away to only 0.3 in a 24 hour period. (both fuges were lid on reverse cycle).
My sump was made for me by Ace and it has baffles, etc. so no skimmer bubbles return to the main system ever.
You could probably pick up a pretty nice sump used with baffles, etc.

[DSAfanatic]

The sump you have is a Marineland Tidepool sump. It is worthless IMO. I had one on my first tank that was a 58g. I would go over to River City or Aqua Tek and get either a Precision Marine or Eshopps sump. I'm sure someone already said this, but you do not need a biowheel in a salt water setup. The biowheels are made for fresh water aquariums and they are a nitrate factory. The Eshopps and PM sumps are kinda pricey though. You can always make your own or see is hobogato can quote you on one. I have seen some of his work and it is really good. I made my own sump once and it ended up looking nothing like his.

[Europhyllia]

I love my hobogato sump :)

[hobogato]

thanks for the compliment, but i am no longer making sumps. i will be glad to talk you thru the process meslo if you decide to make your own out of acrylic.


...You can always make your own or see is hobogato can quote you on one. I have seen some of his work and it is really good...

[Europhyllia]

Whew - got one just in time then! LOL

[Meslo]

im actualy in the process of making a 48X16X16 sump with 3 compartments and a bubble trap. Should have it done in the next few days <knock on wood> one of our plastic supply shops had some scraps of acrylic and we have most of the tools at work. Lets hope that the "welding" of the acrylic is like metal or plastic :) without a weld rod.

So on that note when the water drans to the skimmer,return sump, and ref. How far should the water fall from the pvc pipes to the waiting tank below for good o2 transfer ? Or should the pipe go all the way into the sump ref and skimmer sections ? I just finished making the pvc drain pipes with 3 ball valves so I can controll flow to the skimmer and the ref..

The tank will be in my living room against a wall that is also the garage wall. I am thinking about cutting some holes in the wall and put the sump,pumps,and chiller out there is there any reason I would not want to do that ?

one last thing :) ya right you all know a million more newb questions are coming lol

What is the best way to actualy fill the tank ? Would it be live rock, live sand, then the water ?

Thanks for the offer of help I beleve it was your site that was posted in this thread that gave me the confidence that I should just do my own. But if I do need some help ill shoot you a pm. Or if it leaks all over the place Ill throw it agains the wall cry and go buy one LOL :)

So anyone want a Marineland Tidepool sump :) j/k Im gona hang onto it for a while never know what I may run into in 6 months.

Thanks once again

[Bill S]

OK, let's run thru them one at a time:

You should use a product like Weldon for gluing. Make SURE you test the sump before installing! Also, since you are building it yourself, make sure to bevel the exposed edges at the top slightly. It will save all those tiny little cuts on your wrists and forearms!

I prefer the drains to go all the way into the water. They will drag PLENTY of air with them - google "durso" and make sure you use them with your drains. It will quiet them significantly

If you put them into your garage, make SURE you have a good air exchange in the garage. If your chiller is trying to chill using 110 - 130 degree air from your garage in the summer, it will 1) fail and 2) shoot your electric bill thru the roof. While many chillers are designed to work in environments up to 100 degrees, most aren't, and if they do, they won't work well!

Otherwise, the garage idea is GREAT. Spills, etc. are much more manageable there.

[Meslo]

Ya the durso drains are already cut to size and ready to glue teflon ect. Some one on the first page pointed them out to me for my first problem.

Im actualy suprised at how cool my Garage stays in the summer here. But my dogs stay in there with a doggie door to a 10ftx10ft dog run while I am at work so I do have a room ac in there for the days it really gets hot and it will be on for them so should help with the cooler. I would say it never gets over 85 ish.

The chiller is a 1/4 hp arctica is that a decent brand ?

[jroescher]

First, fill your tank with tap water and run all the pumps for a day or two to check for leaks. After repairing the leaks that you will certainly have the first time, then:

Put something on the bottom of the tank to protect to the glass, set your rock, then put the sand in. That's my preference, everyone will have their own opinion. Then put the water in. It will probably be days before you can see through the water as it will be extremely cloudy at first.

Bottom: several options. There's starboard which is what cutting boards are made from, there's egg crate which is sold at hardware stores as light diffusers, and/or PVC pipe frames made by you that hold the rock in place.

Whatever you do, make sure your rock is solid in place and can't be moved around or shifted. There are some common creatures that make for very powerful bulldozers.

[jesserettele]

I am so jealous! I would like an in-serice from our great president on sump building 101.


I love my hobogato sump :)