23 X of flow too much?

[jesserettele]

I searched previous threads and got carpral tunnel from scrolling. If there is a thread that anyone knows of that answers weather this is too much flow or not please link me and I won't waste webspace.

Other wise, is this too much flow? I want to run a pump that is rated at 1750 gph on a 75 gallon that would be about 23 x water change over cycles per hour. I want to route the returns not only at each end of the tank at the surface but also drop some internal plumbing that I will burry under the sand and use as power heads for flow similar to the builds that ReefOne has done. These will all be interconnected to the return pump kind of like a combination (simulating closed loop and) open loop.

Corruption, you explained that running this external pump would decrease reaction time in my sump but I guess I don't understand how that would happen when compared to a traditional in sump return pump. I am planning on plumbing the external pump straight from the sump where the drop in return pump usually goes. Could you explain this? I would think that pushing 1750 gph into the tank would push 1750 gph through the sump and refuge where the filtration takes place. I can only think that 1750 gph is too fast for the bacteria to actually have time to work when the flow is too fast. I also think that gph may be a little over rated and that the total volume of water is constantly moving towards equalizing concentration levels (ppm thing) and that it really boils down to some decent flow with a great filtration system.

I need to figure this out this week because I am ready to drill two 2 1/2" holes as drains if I use the external pump but don't want to make a mistake.

Thoughts?

[ErikH]

Ok so the 1750 is only running through your sump? You are going to then split your returns through the holes in the bottom of the tank?
I see two problems there, too much flow through the sump. Well, how big is your sump? You really do want slow flow through the fuge, Calfo for surface water removal (nasty stuff goes to the surface, you want it to go down into your sump) oversized skimmer, and light bioload.
The other problem is that if you T off your return and do not add powerheads, you won't have ample flow in your display tank for detritus suspension, imho.

[ErikH]

I use a mag 7 on a 75 29g fuge.
Flow in tank is 2 K4s and a K2.

[jesserettele]

I appreciate your time and feedback!

I would like to try and clarify; The external pump will pull through the sump and return into the tank via two returns, one on each side of the calflo. The calflo will drain what the pump returns all 1750 of it. I thought that this would be too much flow across the top of the water back to the calflo. To decrease the high flow rate across the top of the water to allow the nasty stuff to rise to the upper cuople inches so that the calflo can drain it; I wanted to divert some of the 1750 flow instead of just increasing head pressure with a ball valve to decrease it. I was hoping that by diverting some of the flow down from the returns on either side of the calflo into the sand bed that terminated in a couple nozzles strategically placed to force water through channels in my live rock that would simulate power heads current. The best example that I can think of is Reefone's plumbing and I attached a picture that I stole from his thread http://www.maast.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29471&page=6 of his tank and set up.

I am trying to use the pump that I already have to do the filtration and produce current throughout without any dead spots. I was hoping that I wouldn't have any detritus issues by doing this. I will have a light bio load (fish) and will have a skimmer rated for 100 gallons on this 75 gallon setup and will have a refuge with a total of about 40-50 gallons in the sump total. I would also like to add a tunze wave box in the future.

Does this make sense or should I re-group and re-design?


Ok so the 1750 is only running through your sump? You are going to then split your returns through the holes in the bottom of the tank?
I see two problems there, too much flow through the sump. Well, how big is your sump? You really do want slow flow through the fuge, Calfo for surface water removal (nasty stuff goes to the surface, you want it to go down into your sump) oversized skimmer, and light bioload.
The other problem is that if you T off your return and do not add powerheads, you won't have ample flow in your display tank for detritus suspension, imho.

[jesserettele]

Excellent pics of your tank from your link on your sig. What kind of camera does that?

I see you have re-organized your tank a few times, how long has it been up and running with the Koralias' and filtration you have? What type of lighting do you run? Do you skim or just fuge?


I use a mag 7 on a 75 29g fuge.
Flow in tank is 2 K4s and a K2.

[ErikH]

I have a D80, a hand me down. My wife has the D90, it does video!

I have been having ups and downs as of recent, but have managed to curb it somewhat :confused:

The flow from the koralias is more than enough. I had 3 k4s in there before which was more than ample as well. Are you dedicated to that pump as your return?

[jesserettele]

I am not dedicated to it, but would like to save where I can. Why would it not be a good choice in your opinion? Too much flow? Don't go external pump? It is a pan world 200ps.



I have a D80, a hand me down. My wife has the D90, it does video!

I have been having ups and downs as of recent, but have managed to curb it somewhat :confused:

The flow from the koralias is more than enough. I had 3 k4s in there before which was more than ample as well. Are you dedicated to that pump as your return?

[Gseclipse02]

all that plumbing on top would annoy me ... and blocks lots of the light

[jrsatx20]

It would be to much flow going through the sump. Get a submersible return pump around 500 gph n use that 1750 as a closed loop for circulation. I had a sequence dart pump that put out around 3000gph n that was my only circulation in a 135 gallon.

[jroescher]

Aside from the issue of too much flow across the fuge, keep in mind that the higher the flow in the sump, the more turbulence there will be. Lots of salt creep and you'll have a problem with microbubbles.

Also, that's an Ocean Motions plumbed in a closed loop on ReefOne's tank. It switches the flow between the pipes. They all don't have water flowing in them at the same time.

No matter how you divert water into your tank, whatever is pumped in from the sump is going back down the calfo. It doesn't matter how it gets in or what it goes through on the way, it's all going back down exactly as fast as it goes in. If you try to limit or slow down what drains back in, it will only go over the top. All that plumbing with so many bends will increase the head pressure and bring down the GPH some.

[jesserettele]

Thanks again for the input;

I would like to clarify though that I was talking about using a ball valve on the input/return side that would increase head pressure to regulate the gph, not the return/drain. I understand the basic law of what goes in must come out weather it is over the top or through the calflo. That is why the calflo will be able to drain at least twice as much as the maximum return/input. I have heard a few stories of curious turbo snails with drains.

I re-read through the thread that I am referencing and I guess the white pvc under the substrate is the input/drain for the CL system and the 4 way squirt if the return/input? This is a top down system and not a bottom up.

I have been convinced, thanks to the helpful feedback in this tread, that 1750 gph is too much for a sump/fuge.

I would still like to do is use my existing pump for flow instead of purchasing and installing separate power heads. I would like to plan ahead a little and do some blueprinting to use the 1750 as a closed loop system and have three or four spray nozzles within the live rock creating flow out through tunnels which should pull flow in through the live rock, right? Is having continuous unidirectional flow like power heads not as optimal as having an alternating system like the 4 way squirts? I know it all depends on what the goal is and what type of stock will be propagated but ideally mimicking the ocean’s currents and flow seems like the answer.

So…how is the drain/input to a CL pump achieved, filterless? If so then what is the long term effects of all the debris running through a pump? I have read that the CL system is self explanatory and is one continuous piece of plumbing with openings to allow the water to exit and enter, but I think that it could be separated and would be more efficient this way. The CL pump will pull in what it puts out and should not effect the drain or return of the sump/fuge return pump or calflo drain, right?


Aside from the issue of too much flow across the fuge, keep in mind that the higher the flow in the sump, the more turbulence there will be. Lots of salt creep and you'll have a problem with microbubbles.

Also, that's an Ocean Motions plumbed in a closed loop on ReefOne's tank. It switches the flow between the pipes. They all don't have water flowing in them at the same time.

No matter how you divert water into your tank, whatever is pumped in from the sump is going back down the calfo. It doesn't matter how it gets in or what it goes through on the way, it's all going back down exactly as fast as it goes in. If you try to limit or slow down what drains back in, it will only go over the top. All that plumbing with so many bends will increase the head pressure and bring down the GPH some.

[jroescher]

"So…how is the drain/input to a CL pump achieved, filterless? If so then what is the long term effects of all the debris running through a pump? I have read that the CL system is self explanatory and is one continuous piece of plumbing with openings to allow the water to exit and enter, but I think that it could be separated and would be more efficient this way. The CL pump will pull in what it puts out and should not effect the drain or return of the sump/fuge return pump or calflo drain, right?"


Correct. Pull water from the tank, through the pump, and back in again. I think it would be your preference as to where you draw water from and return it, as long as there's no opening in the loop. Limited only by your imagination. No filters. I don't use one, but I wouldn't think detritus buildup inside would be an issue. At least not for a long time. Build it with ball valves and union valves so that you can take it apart to service the pump if needed.

Also, the nasty stuff doesn't rise to the top to be skimmed off. The object is to keep it all suspended in the water column. As the water is skimmed off, whatever is suspended in the water goes with it. I keep the surface water of my tank turbulent because it looks pretty under the halides (shimmer). 2 Koralias angled toward the top, just less than enough to cause a splash.