I have a problem

[Europhyllia]

Finally got all of the connectors and stuff and tried out my new set up today.

Old set up: Rio HF 12 returns approx 550 gph from the sump to the tank, running through one 1/2" sea swirl. This has worked fine but I wanted more movement. I have 2 overflow boxes on this tank rated at 800 gph each.

New set up: PanWorl/CL pump returns approx 1200 gph from teh sump to the tank running through TWO 1/2" sea swirls.
CHALLENGE: the TWO overflow boxes each rated for 800gph don't keep up with this much input (weird, right? I would have thought 800 x 2 is bigger than 1200...)

So possible solutions:

1) ball valve -reduce the flow of the PanWorld by adding a ball valve to the output side. Would this hurt the pump?

2) divert output - somehow divert som of the PanWorld's output immediately back to the sump rather than to the tank

3) closed loop - put Rio HF back into the sump to use as the sole return pump and create a closed loop for the PanWorld and the sea swirls. This also would have the advantage of a slower flow through the sump.
Not sure what a good fish safe solution would be for the intake in the tank for that pump

Thoughts, options, suggestions?

PS: what's really weird is that this should have just made it possible to run 2 swirls instead of 1 but it seems that each swirl has way more output than the single swirl had with it's pump. And why don't two 800gph overlows keep up with a 1200gph return?

UPDATE: I went with option 3 and I am kind of glad the initial idea didn't work out. Got rid of one of the overflow boxes which looks nicer in the tank anyway. 1200 gph through the sump would have been a lot.

[hobogato]

option #1 would work, but you would be using more electricity than you need by running a larger pump than you need.

option #2 would work, but you may create a micro bubble problem depending on how/where you run the offshoot water directly back into the sump

option #3 would work, but you would have to drill the tank (tank would have to be empty) for a closed loop or do something like this(link) (http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html). also, i know rio has redesigned their pumps, but a few years ago, there were some horror stories about rio pumps melting down and causing big problems in tanks.

another option may be to drill the tank and install a calfo style overflow and do away with the overflow boxes. this would also require emptying the tank tho....

[Europhyllia]

Thanks, Ace!
I don't want to empty the tank. That's for sure.
Melev's solution sounds good but I'm wondering about the intake. Since water in-flow would be restricted (small holes in a pipe rather than open pipe) wouldn't it in effect do something similar to option 1)? I realize you need some kind of strainer thingy to avoid sucking your fish into the pump. Just wondering about the reduction of input affecting output?

And if the strainer thingy does something similar to option 1 would that mean that if I chose option 1 I could just use the ball valve that's already installed in between the sump and the pump rather than add one at the output (in between pump and sea swirls)?

PS: I heard about the Rio problems but it seems like the Hyperflow pumps were not affected and some review sites said the HF (Hyperflow) were really the only Rio pumps worthwhile.

[Bill S]

It's not unusual for drains to not drain their rate numbers. Look at a couple of things:

Are your drains clear, clean and do they run straight? You MAY be able to help your drain volume by putting larger plumbing in. Any elbows will significantly slow your flow.

Are you draining efficiently? How are your drains set up? Do you have a durso on them? Do they "burp" or does air get trapped?

The Rio problem was more hype than anything. I had one melt down in a bucket - my fault, it ran dry - and the owner of TAAM, the manufacturer, assured me that they had intentionally polluted a reef tank with a pump that they had melted down. He also sent me 2 new pumps after I sent him mine back (he wanted to look at it). It's just epoxy.

[Europhyllia]

Bill I have no idea what a durso is !?
Yes, one seems to get an air bubble and burps.
There's no hard plumbing on them. The hoses just angle towards the sump

[alton]

Trade for a smaller pump like a PXX-50. Or sell the pump and buy a smaller one. I should have a PXX-50 in a couple weeks you can borrow to see if it will work.

[justahobby]

I've been curious as to if the pressure of water flowing against the sump water slows the overflow box down ie. exit pipe in deeper/ larger water volume slow the exiting water.

Couldn't you drain the tank down several inches, attach a calfo, and use u tubes connected to hoses without messing with drilling? That should achieve the same effectiveness as far as surface skimming is concerned. Just an idea.

[Europhyllia]

Thanks Alton. I actually need about 550 gph per sea swirl so I need 1100 gph to run them both

[Bill S]

Bill I have no idea what a durso is !?
Yes, one seems to get an air bubble and burps.
There's no hard plumbing on them. The hoses just angle towards the sump

Got a picture of your drains?

[hobogato]

this would not be a good idea because if the power went out, the siphon would break on the u tubes if there is no chamber on the outside of the tank to keep them full of water. then when the power returns, the water would pump back into the tank but would no longer drain thru the u tubes - translation: overflow tank until sump is emptied and then burn up return pump because it is running dry.


I've been curious as to if the pressure of water flowing against the sump water slows the overflow box down ie. exit pipe in deeper/ larger water volume slow the exiting water.

Couldn't you drain the tank down several inches, attach a calfo, and use u tubes connected to hoses without messing with drilling? That should achieve the same effectiveness as far as surface skimming is concerned. Just an idea.

[justahobby]

Ah, I didn't think of power outages/ syphon breaks.

[Europhyllia]

I think I am going to try the non-drilled tank closed circuit thing. Seems the most likely to accomplsih what I want.
I wonder if I will end up with too much flow for just a little mixed reef?

I have:
2 Seio 1500 gph on a controller
1 Seio 1000 gph
return pump 550 gph
total 4550 gph
add to that the PanWorld/CL for 1200 gph
for a total of 6750 gph on a 125g tank

Does that seem like a lot? Guess I can get rid of the 1000 gph Seio. I really like the ones on controller.

Update in last reply

[Europhyllia]

okay closed loop circuit thing as described by melev is done.
I tried out the swirls and even though they didn't directly point to the floor they stirred up quite a bit of my super fine sand. Went and got some coarser sand (just to put a thin layer over the fine sand to keep it down) at AD and also a dual loc-line output to split up the output stream from one strong one into two weaker ones. That seemed to solve the sand blasting problem but I still get micro bubbles.
The only source of air in this closed loop design could be that primer pipe. Obviously I can't completely fill this with air (since it drains through the input pipe back into the tank)
Can I assume eventually all this air is used up and then it stops doing this?
How long is this going to continue?

[joelb]

the 2 J tubes should have drained a total of about 1600 gph. the J tubes go into your tank and inside of a small box with teeth at the top.
was the water rising above the top of the teeth?
did you try lowering that box with teeth deeper into your tank?

maybe the J tubes drained the water from that box faster than it could be filled, so the bottle neck is not the J tubes but the water flow going into the box with teeth. good luck.

[Europhyllia]

Joel,
yes I tried lowering the boxes so that water could get in there faster (more tooth area but they still filled quickly.
I'm back to using the Rio as the return pump with actually only one return box (more space in the tank for even more corals now! lol)
I also figured out what my air problem was - lid not cranked down enough so everything is under control. The sea swirls are swirling on a closed loop and the little rio provides a gentle flow through the sump :)

[TexasTodd]

It's not unusual for drains to not drain their rate numbers. Look at a couple of things:

Are your drains clear, clean and do they run straight? You MAY be able to help your drain volume by putting larger plumbing in. Any elbows will significantly slow your flow.

Are you draining efficiently? How are your drains set up? Do you have a durso on them? Do they "burp" or does air get trapped?

The Rio problem was more hype than anything. I had one melt down in a bucket - my fault, it ran dry - and the owner of TAAM, the manufacturer, assured me that they had intentionally polluted a reef tank with a pump that they had melted down. He also sent me 2 new pumps after I sent him mine back (he wanted to look at it). It's just epoxy.

Get Durosos in.

Or,

Search silencers on Premium aquatics. Very quite and even more flow than a home made Duroso. I think they're about $40 but well worth it.

Another option is to use both drilled holes in overflow as drains and route the return plumbing just up the back side of the tank hidden by overflow. Just make sure the top tip is not very deep in to your tank or it will siphon too much at power out.

Todd