SPS Woes. Major help needed.

[ErikH]

I need some major help here. I keep losing SPS. The problem is that I lose entire colonies overnight. No idea why. Phosban is not helping, and I did a 50g water change 2 weeks ago. Any ideas? I am guessing that I should just keep water changing?

[allan]

Erik, you need anything give me a call. I have no idea what's wrong but I'd be more than willing to help. LMK

You still have my number?

[ACE]

when that happened to me Erik it was the temp.

[ErikH]

when that happened to me Erik it was the temp.


Hmm, I guess it will be a late night for me. I have been wondering if this is the problem, last night I cranked my heater up to combat the low temps. I am trying to keep it steady at 81.

[ErikH]

Allan I don't have it. :(

[lt1z28]

Are you losing newly added sps or have they been in your tank for a while? What are your parameters?

[allan]

No worries. I'll shoot you a PM with the digits in there. I had just commented on your picture thread about the overnight temp swings. I remember hearing Jason's dad (AD) talking to another customer while I was in the shop around Jan or Feb about how they kept losing fish each morning.

If you need another heater (I know it's a weak suggestion) I do have one.

[CoryDude]

++ on the temp issue. Some of my frags have been losing tissue since the nights starting getting cold. I had a 6+ degree swing before adding a new heater to the tank. Been seeing some recovery since adding the heater last week.

The stronger more established colonies have been ok (knock on wood).

[Bill S]

Erik, I've got a handful of heaters in the garage. I'll be home this evening.

Also, look at your salinity. If you are using a refractometer make sure you've recently calibrated it.

[Europhyllia]

I use one of thes elittle cheapo things:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12089
Makes it really easy to look whenever I walk by and see right away what the temp is especially early in the morning.

[ErikH]

I made some controller adjustments to keep the swing much, much less. If it gets below 77 the halides will kick on. :) That's some good insurance. All of my parameters are in order, although I have not checked phosphates, but I lost that whole valida colony overnight. I have to go with temp unless something else is hiding in my sump. Once my shoulder is beter I plan on diggin around in there.

[lt1z28]

I would like to add that out of the 100 sps colonies that I had, not once did I loose one to a temp swing. Before I had a controller my temp would go down to 74 degrees and max at 80 degrees during the winter. This happened several different times when I used to run halides over the 240.

[ErikH]

so what do you think? I don't understand it. Overnight it all turned on me.

[ErikH]

let me add that I had a recent explosion of hair algae, which I have never had before.

[ErikH]

I just replaced my skimmer's ceramic needlewheel impeller part and got it running. Thinking along the lines of O2...

still unsure.

[hobogato]

is it possible that a neighboring coral had a war with it and won?

[ErikH]

No close SPS but it was touching Chrismas zoas. It has touched them for awhile though with no ill affect. I mean, can we start a list of things that could kill a colony overnight?

1.) Temp
2.) SPS War
3.) ?

[ErikH]

Alk swing? I have a fuge light that is on 24/7

[Jarob]

I too lost an acro colony lastnight... just one but my biggest and favorite, also newest. Everything else in my tank is great and my params are spot on. Lastnight around 12 I was looking in my tank with a red LED and everything was great, today around 1 when I woke up (yes 1 lol) all but 2 branches were bleached and white, it seems to have at least slowed as all day the 2 green branches are still mostly green... This is the first loss in my tank, and the only thing that seems stressed atm. ugh

[dmweise]

Is your heater new? Maybe stray voltage.

[Bill S]

Every time I read things like this, I always go back to this: corals are very tolerant of their physical environment, for a short period of time. High/low temps, high/low O2, High/Low PO4, etc. They are tied to the ocean floor, and have no choice in moving. If you lose a colony, it's probably because of something longer term.

P.S. I was really looking to you to get some Valida back when I get my super-nano back...

[justahobby]

A pest? :confused:

[ErikH]

I too lost an acro colony lastnight... just one but my biggest and favorite, also newest. Everything else in my tank is great and my params are spot on. Lastnight around 12 I was looking in my tank with a red LED and everything was great, today around 1 when I woke up (yes 1 lol) all but 2 branches were bleached and white, it seems to have at least slowed as all day the 2 green branches are still mostly green... This is the first loss in my tank, and the only thing that seems stressed atm. ugh

Any idea?


Is your heater new? Maybe stray voltage.

nope and its all plastic. I also have a stray voltage thing a ma bobber in there.


Every time I read things like this, I always go back to this: corals are very tolerant of their physical environment, for a short period of time. High/low temps, high/low O2, High/Low PO4, etc. They are tied to the ocean floor, and have no choice in moving. If you lose a colony, it's probably because of something longer term.

P.S. I was really looking to you to get some Valida back when I get my super-nano back...

Maybe o2 then, or possibly the longer term of coral temps..


A pest? :confused:

I've looked, but see nothing.

[Europhyllia]

okay igrnorant question from non-SPS person:
how do you know it's completely gone? Could it come back?

[justahobby]

What's the time frame between deaths? Are the coral in a general vicinity of each other or does it appear random? If I suspected chemical warfare, I would check the direction of my water flow. If you have a uniformed flow the toxins could be hitting the coral in a pattern. Yes, I know I am probably out in left field w/ these thoughts lol. Are you still skimmerless? Random overnight deaths just sounds too quick and too random for any of the above listed ideas (yes, I know that observation helps in no way what so ever). Maybe you aren't seeing the warning signs, and the most delicate corals are dying off first.

[Mr Cob]

Erik, I too have recently lost some SPS colonies...several over the last couple of weeks. I trying to not make many changes and I added another heater (remember I saw you at Gabe's when I was picking one up).

I chalked it up to be the drops in temp. My tank normally stays 79-81. With the crazy weather lately...over the last 2-3 weeks...cold, warm...normal...colder...cold again....it has been kind of going all over the place. It's been 76-81...that's a huge swing.

I've been trying to keep things stable but it's hard with the weather fluctuating so frequently. I've been working long hours as well for the last couple of months and I know that hasn't helped with monitoring the tank for temp swings either.

[ErikH]

okay igrnorant question from non-SPS person:
how do you know it's completely gone? Could it come back?

It is bleach white, completely dead. There wer a few tips that I saved, some of those are already dead though too.


What's the time frame between deaths? Are the coral in a general vicinity of each other or does it appear random? If I suspected chemical warfare, I would check the direction of my water flow. If you have a uniformed flow the toxins could be hitting the coral in a pattern. Yes, I know I am probably out in left field w/ these thoughts lol. Are you still skimmerless? Random overnight deaths just sounds too quick and too random for any of the above listed ideas (yes, I know that observation helps in no way what so ever). Maybe you aren't seeing the warning signs, and the most delicate corals are dying off first.

Well, this one just occurred last night, all of the others were a month or two ago.


Erik, I too have recently lost some SPS colonies...several over the last couple of weeks. I trying to not make many changes and I added another heater (remember I saw you at Gabe's when I was picking one up).

I chalked it up to be the drops in temp. My tank normally stays 79-81. With the crazy weather lately...over the last 2-3 weeks...cold, warm...normal...colder...cold again....it has been kind of going all over the place. It's been 76-81...that's a huge swing.

I've been trying to keep things stable but it's hard with the weather fluctuating so frequently. I've been working long hours as well for the last couple of months and I know that hasn't helped with monitoring the tank for temp swings either.

Yeah hopefully my new settings will keep me good.

Just nervous I guess.

[Mr Cob]

I lost a big neon green acro I got from Giau...it was right before you took pics of my tank....I seriously felt like crying. It was one of my favorites. It made me sick to my stomach.

What a hobby!

[corruption]

Erik, I don't really have anything specific that hasn't already been stated, but it might be worthwhile to try out some Poly-Filter... if there's a toxin in the water thats causing it, the Poly-Filter should pull it out without any hesitation... Might be worth the try, tends to be a bit broader range than PhosBan or similar..

-Justin

[alton]

I am sounding like a broken record again when SPS go bad but, have you checked your lamps with a meter lately to see if they are still good? I had this problem once with my lamps losing 50% at only 8 months of use. And I lost all of but one of my SPS.

[lt1z28]

Are you using a rodi? Have you checked the tds level? I had hair algae growing in my tank and couldnt figure out what was causing it. After several weeks of trying to figure out the problem I decided to check my tds level and it was at 260. I remember losing several colonies during the time I had hair algae.

[corruption]

He just changed out all his filters, including his Cation/Anion mix, so I'm doubting thats the problem..

Erik, I know its the last one you'd want to correlate it with, but have you done any searching to see if people have had recent problems with die-off associated with Instant Ocean/Reef Crystals? I haven't heard anything pointing to die-off recently, just major inconsistencies in the mix itself and reformulation after tons of claims that they werent... but it could happen.

-Justin

[Europhyllia]

I think you need to dump more food in there! (just kidding. Or maybe not. Check out this article: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/coral )
Don't throw it away just yet. It might recover even from all white. In the article it said it would be very difficult to kill off ALL zooxanthellae.

[aquasport24]

That blows Erik and Rob, i lost about 95% of my SPS collection too. They all died while in the holding tank that i was in a rush to placed them in there.When all my water parameters were not in check completely.Miss my ORA Miyagi tort colony the most.

[Mr Cob]

That blows Erik and Rob, i lost about 95% of my SPS collection too. They all died while in the holding tank that i was in a rush to placed them in there.When all my water parameters were not in check completely.Miss my ORA Miyagi tort colony the most.

I still have the Cali Tort and ORA Miyagi Tort...both are doing fine with nice colors and full polyp extension...just grow slow. I fragged a piece of each and did a trade with Clone (Kevin) recently... just so you know in case you want a frag back in the near future. Let me know when you are up and running steady.

[Bill S]

1) When corals "bleach", they expel all of their zoanthellae. They aren't dead. YET. However, if you have tissue loss, that's a whole nother matter.

2) Just because you have a grounding probe in your tank, doesn't mean you have no current. It just keeps the current from killing YOU. Check for stray voltage with a voltmeter.

3) I find it hard to pin SPS death on temperature swings of just 5 or 6 degrees. That is very common in their world.

[corruption]

I'd agree with Bill on the temp swing issue -- its too short term, and its common in their natural realm -- the temp swing is more dangerous to fish than to corals, by far.. Good point on the grounding probe -- didn't even think about the fact that the voltage is still leaking into the water column, prior to removal via grounding probe...

-Corruption

[aquasport24]

Thanks Rob.

[Mr Cob]

No problem Giau.

I disagree with the comments on temp swings. Some corals are not use to temp swings and are much more sensitive to water parameters and temp swings. Not all corals are from low tidal reefs. Which explains why we may only lose a few and others may be fine. Some are from much deeper reefs where temps are stable and if they do fluctuate it's over weeks/months not hours.

This proves true with the Neon Acro I lost....it did best low (my tank is 29" and it was in the bottom section and I only have 250w MH....that's not much light for an SPS at that depth...but it did awesome low) which could be a sign that it came from deep waters with more stable conditions...??? Subsequently I lost it when my temp started to swing.

Too many possibilities...but don't rule out temp swings just because most of our corals are from low tidal reefs. Remember not all are.

[ACE]

3) I find it hard to pin SPS death on temperature swings of just 5 or 6 degrees. That is very common in their world.


Although I agree with Bill that a swing of 5 or 6 degrees is fine, if the upside of that swing is too high it will not be good for SPS. That is what happened when I had the 75. Currently, my temp management is not higher than 78, and as low as 73, my SPS are thriving at those temps.

[corruption]

Hmm... good point.. he did state that he has shifted his heat upwards recently to try to combat the nightly swing recently... Erik, how high did you push your temperature when you adjusted upwards?

-Justin

[ErikH]

Ok so my tank stayed steady all night at 81 degrees. Right what I have my heater set to. It's also set to turn off halides at 83 degrees, and has only hit 82.0 so far. I will test for stray voltage here in a few. As Justin stated, I recently changed out my entire units filters and before hand only had 26ppm coming out of the RODI. It is back to 0. I used that newfangled salt from Brightwell, and this is the only coral to perish since then. I fragged the very few small pieces that still had flesh. Most of them died overnight, but there are a few scragglers that have PE. Hopefully they will be my phoenix corals and do me right. The phoenix is in my family crest ya know. :)

[Bill S]

Erik, is there some reason you like temps above 80? I prefer them in the upper 70s.

[ACE]

82 degrees is too hot for SPS IMO Erik. When mine died that was the temp in my 75. Agree with Bill, should be in the uppper 70's.

[hobogato]

there is some evidence of increased potential for RTN at higher temps, but that is usually at or above 84. that being said, i also agree that ime, sps have been more temperamental at or above 80. i kept mine at 79 when i had a chiller.

[Jarob]

The last 2 branches of the green acro colony I lost parished overnight, I felt like crying yesterday! My first coral loss (knock on wood) and it SUCKS UGH. I hope whatever this overnight problem is we figure it out

[ErikH]

I am trying to negate the swing. It has only gotten to 82.2 which it used to get to often, higher than that actually. My cheapo in tank thermo says it's 80, maybe it is more right than the controller?

[ErikH]

I am going to put three thermos in the tank and see if the controller is off.
The salinity was high 1.028, I filled the sump with RO/DI and brought it back to 1.025, then dumped enough water to reach my floats.
Hooked my ATO back up and shoved a 10g res under the stand.

Bleh, keep firing away, sometimes a second set of internet eyes are whatcha need.

[ErikH]

Ok so one of the thermos was cracked on top but nothing fell out. Did affect the temp reading in comparison to the other 2. If my tank hits 82 all lights go out.

[corruption]

What size heater are you running, Erik? Perhaps you should invest in another heater, to more stabilize the temps at a lower setting -- its the swing you're trying to counteract, not the temp you're trying to push higher... Might be worth it to double up.

-Corruption

[corkyGramma]

great thread guys, enjoying the reasoning

[ErikH]

What size heater are you running, Erik? Perhaps you should invest in another heater, to more stabilize the temps at a lower setting -- its the swing you're trying to counteract, not the temp you're trying to push higher... Might be worth it to double up.

-Corruption

All of the lights bring the temp up so high. Not the heater. Just tried to stabilize the temp overnight. Got the temp down to 78.8 right now.

[corruption]

Ahh... hmm... so then they'd already be used to some decent peak temperatures... leads me to think its not the temp thats causing it even more.. This is the tank that had the tennis ball in the sump, right? I still think you should try running some Poly-Filter -- it couldn't hurt anything..

-Justin

[Europhyllia]

Can you run a fan? I have a Vornado aimed at the tank and it runs while the lights are on. I consistently keeps it down 2 degrees versus not using the Vornado. I love it. It's in the dining room and you can't hear it at all.
All these recent temp threads have been very educational for me. I am happy to say over the last couple of days with an extra heater in the sump and the fan during the day my swing is so minimal - it's less than 1.0 (it's 79.x 24 hours)
The other thing I learned is to stay away from SPS. They sound like real heatbreakers to just croak over night like that! :(

[ErikH]

I have three fans. I have had SPS since this tank has been up. I LOVE SPS. My tank has been very hands off until recently. Some of the colonies that died were several years old. This tank had a 50g water change done on it recently. The return goes into a high micron filter sock.

[Jarob]

No clue what the problem was still but I did a few water changes and everything looks really good in my tank, maybe better than ever.

Here are some pics of what happened, this is how I came to it after sleeping for about 12 hours. Notice the other acro milis in the pic are great

[ErikH]

well now I have three anemones. One keeps getting stuck on in the overflow box teeth. This may not be helping either. I am running chemipure elite and phosban, temps never above 81.

[Europhyllia]

would chemical warfare amongst your corals be a possibility?

[corruption]

Any updates, Erik?

-Justin

[ErikH]

Everything looks great so far. Not sure what's going on. The anemones looks better and all of the tiny frags (4) that I have left of the PV are polyped out and doing a-ok.

[corruption]

Good to hear... wonder what caused the die-back...

-Justin

[ErikH]

It had to be temp, or at least that's where my finger is pointing right now. It hurts when I point.

[fishypets]

I didn't see your KH and CA readings. My first guess would've been a KH drop.

Currently my sps tank sits in front of a window (which I keep cracked all the time) and my temp swing is from 74.8 at night to 82 during evening before my chiller kicks on. I don't have one single problem with my sps to speak of.

[ErikH]

Ok, so.....

I got a new PH probe since I broke the other one. (Don't ask :p)

My PH is 7.8 at night. This is my problem, I believe. From 8.43 yesterday night before lights out. I have a fuge light that is on 24/7. Any other recommendations to keep this up?

I dosed 30ml Bionic part 1 and dosed 30ml Bionic part 2 to bring my Alk and CA up. 30ml is my max dosing that I can do without killing everything. Readjusted CA reactor to a faster drip rate.

[Europhyllia]

What is the reason that you don't want to run the fuge light on a reverse light cycle to the tank?
How big is your fuge?
Also consider CO2 removal

[Bill S]

Erik, does that probe go to a pH meter, or controller? You should set your Ca Reactor up with a pH controller, and shut off the effluent when the pH drops too low. I'm assuming you also have a controller on your reactor itself, to keep it from melting down.

Are you dripping Kalk too?

[ErikH]

Ok so my reactor is gravity fed. It's also a dual stage, I will have to check the PH of the drip. I cannot turn it off due to the gravity feed. Yes I do have a probe in the first chamber. When it rises above 6.6 it kicks on to drop it back down to 6.6 in the first chamber.

I am not dripping Kalk at this time. I do however have the large sized Geo Reactor which has been sitting unused. It runs off a peristaltic pump. Can I have that just kick on for a few seconds every hour after lights out maybe?

[hobogato]

when you start dripping kalk, it will help with the pH. especially if you drip it in more at night when the pH tends to drop

[Kristy]

Agreed.... dripping kalk is the only thing that gets our pH up when it's low. We B-ionic to keep it up and balanced, but if it has dropped, only the kalk seems to make any difference. (And the whole tank is so much happier when the pH is right).

[ErikH]

Cool, I'll clean that bad boy out and get it all rigged up again.

[ErikH]

Ok so my PH is dropping. My ATO has kept up all day with the FW. The reservoir is the same one I use for my kalk reactor.

My problem is.
It looks like I would be overflowing my tank at some point if I run this configuration and with the kalk PH coming out of the tube is 11.3 It's not keeping up with the drop, so should I just add kalk to the reactor to bring the effluent ph up?

[hobogato]

your pH is still going to fluctuate some, and it will take time for things to balance out. reactors are not a quick fix like adding 2 part. in fact, most people recommend you get the levels where you want them with dosing and then simply use the reactors to maintain the levels.

[ErikH]

Ace, I do that. Last night once I got everything "just so" I dosed to bring my PH up to 8.34 Man those lights kicked off and as fast as you can say fast the PH dropped 2 points. The reactor kicked on and just wasn't keeping up with the drop. I just wouldn't be able to drip enough without an overflow of my sump. If I dripped that much I know I would have a crash due to the KH skyrocketing. I was really in awe at how fast the PH was dropping. I will get a reading of my levels here at around 12.

It seems to drop drastically with the temp, and inline with it. I sat there last night and the PH would only drop along with the temp.

[Bill S]

IMO, running a Ca reactor without a Kalk reactor is a whole bunch of work...

[ErikH]

Ok so I am going to assume there was a marginal overflow last night of maybe a gallon. When I woke up to check it this morning at about 8 the PH was at 8.21. The peristaltic pump was on when I woke up running dry. It dropped my salinity to 1.023, once it goes back to operating level, I am going to check again to see if I can do some bad math to try and calculate how much water may have gone over the side.

So my question that still remains is how much kalk to put in my reactor? I don't want it to flood over, but I don't want my alk to go through the roof either. I guess it cant since the kalk reactor shuts off and the CA reactor doesn't obviously shoot my PH over what it needs to be. My alk was at 10 this morning, same as yesterday.

Do I cut my CA reactor down more to allow for more use of the kalk?
Is it possible the probe in the reactor is off?

[Paul28]

how often does you kalk reactor mix ? i do mine 1 time a day right at lights out and i add calcim hydroxide 2tbs every 10 or 15 gal that go throgh the ato but im not sps but i do love my lvls to stay perfect. your cal reactor should be keeping your alk high but be carful if to mutch co2 gets out of the reactor will slam your ph but not your alk . what is your co2 bubble count and effect drip to the min on both you half to balence those or way to mutch co2 will melt that media fast if you do not have a controler you might have melted the media when is the last time you changed the media in the reactor. ive had no problems with a cal reactor becuse i have a controler that shuts of the co2 and keep a close eye on ph adding kalk to get rid of co2 is not a very good idea it will sky rocket that alk and with the cal reactor keeping alk high you will easly shooooooot the alk to 14 and higher fast so keep a close eye on the alk it will bleach alll your stuff fast very fast if it was me get a ph prob in that cal not driping out of it get 1 in it what kind of cal reator is it ? most people are scared of cal reactor becuse of the mass amount of co2 that goes into the tank and the sky rocket alk so people think adding kalk will salve the problem and add way to mutch to keep ph high and thats not the problem its been the co2 the full time keeping ph low, alk drip is ok for a cal reactor but be very carful VERY carful


sorry for the run on and miss spelling haha :)

[ErikH]

Paul, thanks for the reply. I had to read a couple of things a few times, but I got it! I have a dual stage reactor, with a PH Probe in the first chamber. My media melts at 6.6 in the first chamber, so that is what the controller is set for.
The effluent drip of the CA Reactor is 6.87, is that too low? I do understand that the only time my reactor is dripping CA is when the CO2 is on. The kalk should supplement CA as well correct?

[Paul28]

if your cal is low the reactor will not raise it the reactor is for maintaining lvls kalk is calcuim hydroxide it will obsorb alot of the co2 and raise alk it will raise cal alittle but it isant a good way to raise it. what i would do is slow add the kalk on the ato top off depending on how mutch ato you do is depending the lvl of calcuim hydroxide you will need every tank is defrent add half the dose per gallon to get a start and feel of your tank. maybe rais the effected drip of your reactor to a dkh of 11 in your tank then start to add calcium suplement to get it to the proper lvl of calcuim but make shur your mag lvls go up same rate as calcuim or it will lock your calcaum lvvls were thay are also with the drip of the cal reactor will maintain your alk lvls for the cal to raise to right lvls when you get mag and cal to proper lvl rember you have the drip on the cal reactor up right now but not to high just to maintain the cal and mag to rais and alk to stay stable ph will swing to 7.9 to 8.4 in this time becuse we are balencing the calcuim reactor. ok when you reach lvl cal you want and mag and alk now its time to tune the cal reactor with the kalk reactor to maintain ph and alk lvls the calcuim reactor will do its job now and maintain cal and alk but will not maintain mag that will half to be suplemented along with cal depending on bioload turn down the effective drip to maintain your alk becuse rember we turned it up to get cal and alk and mag to balence me i like tokeep my dkh at around 10 to 11 and maintan cal at 400 to 420 and mag 1300 to 1350 when i hit that lvl you half to keep a eye on the effected drip play it up and down till it maintains the alk at perfect lvls if it dosent jump your alk to bad with dosing calcuim hydroxide the main reson for calcuiom hydroxide is for buffing the alk and also removing CO2 The only reson that your ph is low if your dkh is around 10 or 11 is 100% co2 problem welcome to the world of calcuim reactor add pump to sum open window make shur you rate the air pump to the galon of water you have i have a big air pump and i run air stones in my overflows and a air stone in my sump its a half t6o with a calcuim reactor alot of people dont relize how mutch co2 will effect ph the only way to fix that is oxygen


sorry for the 1 big run on sentence hahhah :)

[Paul28]

now part 2 balence the kalk reactor with the cal reactor heres how to do it bring the effective drip down to 9 to 10 dkh and on the ato add calcuim hidroxide up the dose to 75% str to 100% now whats going to happen the ammount of kalk that is added on the top of will bal to about 11 to 12 dkh but keep a eye on mag mag will drop becuse the cal reactor wont keep up with it, but the kalk will buff the cal and alk to balence with the cal reactor and the added bonis of taking co2 out of tank too its hard to explain to you by me typing so i hope you undersatnd its alot to take in hehe

when all said and done and bal in your lvls will be around 10 to 12 dkh mag around 1300 to 1350 you will half to dose mag keep and your cal around 400 to 450 dependng on demand of your tank if you need to add. if your tank is STUFFED with sps yeh but if not no need your dk will balence with a effected drip of 9 to 10 dk and the added calcuim hydroxide on your ato will ballence it to 10 to 12 also removing alot of co2 and raise ph with the hardening of the kalk with the cal reactor not to high but will keep up with the alk and cal you just need add mag :) now rember how mutch calcuim hydroxide to add to kalk is how mutch you ato be very carfull with that you dont want to over shoot your alk so make shur you bring the effected drip down on that cal reactor when all lvls are good

so sorry for the misstypes and run on im not the best at grammer or spelling im labor but LIVE AND LOVE this hobby

[TexasTodd]

Hey Erik, I'm not sure how I missed this. Sorry to hear about your losses.

1. "I have hair algae breaking out" = phosphate and sucking O2 = PH drop with lights out.
2. You will have MANY more problems with low salinity than "high" and 1.029 is not too high for sps. Watch the fast swings especially downward.
3. Are you running UV or O3? When one colony goes you have a much higher chance of others going just due to the bacteria explosion from the dead/dying colony.
4. I would have asked if you just cracked a new bucket of salt but see it's been asked and it sounds like the problems have crossed between brands/buckets.
5. IME 81+ is too high for a tank of sps. 77 is safer, yes, your growth may be slower, but it's better than dead.
6. Any cracked halide bulbs or moved glass for HQI?
7. Cut back on your feeding for a while and skim very wet.
8. Kalk is about the best darn thing for a tank you can do. Not just the PH but as I'm sure you know it binds phosphates in your tank! If the reactor is giving you problems, just get a big'ol bin and mix and auto does from that for a bit to keep it consistent. I have no experience with Kalk reactors, only CA reactors.

I'd be happy to pop over too Erik.

Had you put any new SPS in the tank in the prior 4-6 months?

Did any of the corals grow to where they were limiting flow?

Have you been dosing iodine?

Todd

[Paul28]

when i say effected drip from the cal reactor i mean your main tank lvls this prosess takes a month or longer to tone in DO not get rushy or you can not get that cal reactor tuned in with the Kalk reactor thats were everyone makes the mistake and hate calcuim reactors nothings fast on them alot of testing but when you get it tuned in your maintance is hardly at all on dosing if you have to youse a 2 part solution with a cal reactor get a bigger reactor or get it tuned in your alk should be perfect all the time with a cal rector if it is not your doing something rong

[Bill S]

I do understand that the only time my reactor is dripping CA is when the CO2 is on. The kalk should supplement CA as well correct?

Not sure I understand this, Erik. You should be dripping as long as the pH in your tank isn't too low.

"Calcium Reactor" is a misnomer. It's really an "Alkalinity Reactor".

UNLESS your Alk and Ca are already at your desired levels, DON'T RUN THE Ca REACTOR.

[Paul28]

Not sure I understand this, Erik. You should be dripping as long as the pH in your tank isn't too low.

"Calcium Reactor" is a misnomer. It's really an "Alkalinity Reactor".

UNLESS your Alk and Ca are already at your desired levels, DON'T RUN THE Ca REACTOR.


yep all it does is raise KH and if your Cal lvls are at the point thay should be it will help maintain them it wont raise cal :) but you will half to dose Mag :)

[hobogato]

:) but you will half to dose Mag :)

or just put some magnesium pellets in the calcium reactor also - i used to use zeomag

[Paul28]

god i wish i thoght of that , you say zeomag ill look into that thax man

[Paul28]

is this it http://www.marinedepot.com/Korallen_Zucht_ZEOvit_ZEOmag_Magnesium_Granulate_1 kg_Calcium_Reactor_Media-Korallen_Zucht-VX5131-FICRCM-vi.html

if so im defently looking into it did you have any problems with it melting what ph did you drop it to ?

[TexasTodd]

or just put some magnesium pellets in the calcium reactor also - i used to use zeomag

Ditto.

Also, Erik, how much Phosban are you using and how often are you changing it out? Have you been spot on for change out times?

Todd

[ErikH]

Ok.... Bill, what I meant was that only when the CO2 kicks on am I melting media. The rest of the time I am just dripping alk.

I haven't tested for MG lately, but I always can.

Todd, I have not been specific on the phosban change out.

This morning, I have the same effect. PH low, sump nearly overflowing. My CA Reactor is dripping effluent SUPER DUPER SLOW. One drop maybe every 2 seconds. I popped the top of the old Kalk reactor and tested the PH. 11.0?

So If I pump 5g of KW into my tank overnight, the PH still drops like there is no tomorrow. I understand they all need to be in synch across the board, but for the life of me I just can't figure out how I cannot keep my PH up overnight. The CA reactor is almost off the drip is so low.

Example....
My center halide turns off if the tank hits 81. Within 5 minutes the PH will have dropped 2 points. I just don't get that. The second it drops, the KWR kicks right on but cannot ever recover to 8.32

[ErikH]

Oh, Todd, I have been using the Phosban in the amounts specified for my sized tank. I think it's something like half of the canister, I am precise about that stuff.

[ErikH]

Oh yeah, on another sidenote, my HA is dying off rapidly since dosing the KW.

[TexasTodd]

The most important thing with Phosban is to change it out regularly and not wait too long. It can hose your PH and kill corals going from worn out to a new batch.

How much hair algea in tank (picture)?

You shouldn't have to shut your CA reactor off at night. Is it single or dual?

Todd

[ErikH]

Ok Todd, I will yank it out as I am sure it is expired. The HA started when I got my center halide SE I think the bulb was old. Really not much total in tank maybe a 6x6 Square. My reactor is a dually, I don't shut it off ever, it runs off it's own PH monitor.

[TexasTodd]

I would start with 1/4 the recommended amount and work up to 100% over a week+. If you are hitting the change outs like clock work at intervals a little shorter than the manufacturer recommends you can do full amount change outs. LOTS of people have lost sps going too much too fast or at a full change out when the old stuff was all used up. I always used about 1/2 what they said and changed it out 2x as often as recommended.

I'd get the kalkwasser running full strength through your ATO, then get your parameters in line with 2-part, then redial your CA reactor.

I believe people underestimate how MUCH phosphate a CA reactor dumps in a system. It is a lot and IME you can't run a CA reactor on SPS well without keeping up with your phosban.

Todd

[ErikH]

Cool Todd, I will get to work. :)

I removed my KWR because no matter how much KWPowder I was adding, the PH started to drop? I took a small 2.5g tank, put in 1g of FW and 2 tsp of ESV KWP. Tested and the PH was 12. Very odd I thought. I just dumped and cleaned it and am making new water for it now. Should I always try to maintain a PH of 12 out of the KWR?

Big ol pain in the rear, glad I have a good support system in you all. Thanks again for posting, keep the idears flowin'! :)

[TexasTodd]

I've always thought about 1 heaping tsp is about max or more than 1g of fresh water can "hold". Ask Ace on the KWR.

I just put a couple of cups in a 60 gallon container and mix continually. When it gets low I add more water and kalk at the same time.

Todd

[ErikH]

Really? Why such a large container? Won't it go bad?

That does make sense on the PH of the reactor. I assumed the same, that it was off due to some chemical thing that I was not understanding. When I used to does through my ATO, I always made sure the PH was at 12 with the water I was topping off with. I seriously wish there was somewhere on the label that explained how much KWP is supposed to go into a reactor, not just tell you how to figure out if the powder is good or not. I guess this is a subtle nuance that I am going to have to tinker with carefully until I know better.

[TexasTodd]

No, it doesn't "go bad", that was on my old 300g system and it used 3 gallons or so a day.

I too have been wondering about KWR and how often to fill with kalk and how much. I have a used Ace reactor I've not hooked up yet.

Todd

[ErikH]

Ok so I PH'ed the water to 12.0 and turned it on. It turned off very quickly, about 30 seconds. PH went up 2 points. So far, it looks good, but I won't know until the real test later when the lights start to go off.

[ErikH]

Alrighty, I got some good data for the rest of the reefgeeks.
@22:50 Alk 9 PH @ 8.36
@23:00 PH 8.36 (from earlier dosing) First 2 halides turn off. temp 80.9
@23:11 PH @ 8.33
@23:26 PH @ 8.32
@23:31 PH @ 8.32 All halides off.
@23:34:30 PH @ 8.31 KWR ON
@23:37:20 PH @ 8.33 KWR OFF

Approximate usage 70 ml of 11.8 PH KW in 3:10/s

We will see how it goes. :)

[TexasTodd]

Looks good, let us know when you wake up night owl.

TT

[corruption]

What all you sane people call bed time, I call time for breakfast. :D

Glad to see this thread has come full circle towards a possible solution -- the group effort around here is great :)

Edit: +1 on Todd's method for making Kalk slurry -- the limewater is so caustic, that theres not a whole lot that will survive in the mix, even with long-term storage... The fresh water will only absorb so much of the kalk, and the remainder will precipitate to the bottom of the storage container.. The bit of extra pretty much ensures that the water will always be fully saturated -- especially if you have something lightly stirring up the Kalk at the bottom occasionally.

-Justin

[ErikH]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Ok so my ph is 8.21 right now. I woke up to find my skimmer overflowed and the sump is barely containing the excess water.

Lost again!

[TexasTodd]

OH Yeah, ooops, remember that the Kalk will help your skimmer skim better.....

You don't have an internal / in sump skimmer? External = #1 way to have a flood.

Glad your ph is up!

Todd

[ErikH]

Hey Erik, I'm not sure how I missed this. Sorry to hear about your losses.

1. "I have hair algae breaking out" = phosphate and sucking O2 = PH drop with lights out.
2. You will have MANY more problems with low salinity than "high" and 1.029 is not too high for sps. Watch the fast swings especially downward.
3. Are you running UV or O3? When one colony goes you have a much higher chance of others going just due to the bacteria explosion from the dead/dying colony.
4. I would have asked if you just cracked a new bucket of salt but see it's been asked and it sounds like the problems have crossed between brands/buckets.
5. IME 81+ is too high for a tank of sps. 77 is safer, yes, your growth may be slower, but it's better than dead.
6. Any cracked halide bulbs or moved glass for HQI?
7. Cut back on your feeding for a while and skim very wet.
8. Kalk is about the best darn thing for a tank you can do. Not just the PH but as I'm sure you know it binds phosphates in your tank! If the reactor is giving you problems, just get a big'ol bin and mix and auto does from that for a bit to keep it consistent. I have no experience with Kalk reactors, only CA reactors.

I'd be happy to pop over too Erik.

Had you put any new SPS in the tank in the prior 4-6 months?

Did any of the corals grow to where they were limiting flow?

Have you been dosing iodine?

Todd

LOL Todd I just saw this post. Yes I do add SPS often, some put in yesterday. No they really do not limit flow anywhere. No I do not dose iodine, only CA, Alk,& Mg.

[ErikH]

OH Yeah, ooops, remember that the Kalk will help your skimmer skim better.....

You don't have an internal / in sump skimmer? External = #1 way to have a flood.

Glad your ph is up!

Todd

Ok so I have some new numbers..... not good..... Yeah I remember about skimmers and kalk, I just had my skimmer set to my float switches which are well under water. My skimmer is internal so there is no nasty external overflow. :)

@08:26 KWR PH 9.74 from last nights 11.8 76.0deg
@08:26 PH @ 8.21
@08:30 PH @ 8.11

4 minutes 10 point drop. Do I just stop fighting this and settle on a lower PH?

I'll post my levels once all the lights come on. I am suspect of Mg being too low now.

[TexasTodd]

I would really check for any parisites.

I would mix some kalkwasser up in a storage bin instead of the KWR if you're getting that kind of drop. Also, get your top off kalkwasser just barely dripping so it's not on and off so quickly. Get Ace over there if he thinks he can show you how to keep the KWR from making swings like that...he can also show you a cool way to feed/top off through the KWR with a TomTom pump and no clogging......please post once he tells/shows you how to keep your KWR from loosing so much ph!

Iodine can really help with tissue loss, it won't stop it, but might help some. I like Kent Tech-I best since it's safe and is available for a long time.

IME, the lower PH isn't that big of a deal, consistent is more important. It's the swings that are scary.

UV or O3???????????????

Todd

[ErikH]

http://www.mv.com/users/besposito/nilsen.html

He is using 3 heaping tbsp per 2g. I used 2 near level tbsp per/g to get 11.8 He also states that he increased his KWP amount. I am going to do that. I did not see him accounting for the entire amount of ATO res water. I see that Paul had suggested dosing through my ATO as well, so I may do that too, my fear there is that the PH will spike higher than wanted with all of the lights on.

I am going to try and get the KWR up to a PH of about 15. This should hold me steady overnight.

[ErikH]

Todd, man I have checked up and down for parasites but have never seen a one. Literally, I probably spend 5 hours a day in front of that tank :)

No UV or O3, and no ORP probe on my AC Jr.

I will have to give Ace a shout, well, maybe :)

I did notice that I went from 11 to 9 KH since I have slowed the CaR.

[TexasTodd]

ACE!!!!?????

I'm guessing you should be putting several CUPS of kalk in your KWR. To measure out tsp makes no sense. You can't over saturate the water and you WANT to keep it at the maximum. There's no reason to have one if you have to put kalk in every day!

Put your ATO through your KWR on a timer so it's only during lights off. Your system will be fine without any new fresh during the day.

Todd

[hobogato]

you are correct todd. i used to put a half pound in my kalk reactor. the pH of the effluent should not drop when it is dosing if you have the water saturated.

[ErikH]

Ok so it seems it will not exceed 11.8 no matter how much kalk I put in. Since it should be 12, I am guessing my probe is off my -2 points and that the saturated water's PH will never exceed 12. Am I correct in that assumption?

[TexasTodd]

Yes, it can't hold any more.

Well, technically you can lower the water temp and get a little more in, and, you can add vinegar and the solution will "hold" more Kalk, but as you're using it there's no way to get more in to raise ph further.

T

[ErikH]

Ok good. :) I just checked my alk is 10. Feeding the kiddo so yeah, not too much time, at least right now.

I put kalk in my ATO res, which is the same res I use for my KWR. Essentially I am going to push saturated water through it. IDK, it looks like the reactor is just a fancy water holder. :)

[hobogato]

the purpose of the kwr is to keep your topoff water saturated with kw. some reactors are designed to dose even when they are stirring and some are not. not sure which you have.

[ErikH]

Ok my cal is at 400. I will start posting these daily.

[ErikH]

PH was at 8.03 this morning, sump about to overflow. I simply cannot do this another day. My sump is filling up enough for the inlet to start bubbling. This bubbling is soaking an area of my tank's stand that I cannot reach. I do not need this thing to fall apart on me our last 20 days here.

I can drip kalk all night, it is not going to matter, and the sump will only overflow. The PH just continues to drop and drop. The peristaltic pump is too slow to stop an immediate drop and no matter if I kalk up my ATO and try to help it doesn't.

I am only dripping one drop every 4 seconds out of my CA reactor. I highly doubt this is the problem, and would be willing to just take the dang thing offline if it is the problem. I just do not think it is.

Again, I am at a loss here...

[ErikH]

I am about to hang my hat on this tank and just call it a day.

[Europhyllia]

what's your pH high in a 24 hour period?

[ErikH]

It goes to 8.32 easily with the lights on, but that's only when dosing. I can't just let it ride without any supplement or nothing would raise the PH.

I have been able to keep it 8.21 steady over a 2 night period without coming close to an overflow. It's not 8.32 though, which is my target.

After a few years on here you figure this would be an easy fix for me but it is not. I keep posting in hopes that someone can give me better direction, but it seems this thread is being overlooked, at least it feels that way. :(

I have thousands of dollars in fish and corals and to me this has become an emergency. I do not have as much money to throw around at this hobby and it is keeping me strapped to my chair everyday worried when I have other things to worry about, like our baby on the way. I want to expand my reef, but this problem is keeping me from committing to it full time. I am going to post on RC, hopefully someone there will be able to cure my woes.

I just want to solve the problem. If keeping the **** thing at 8.21 is ok, then that's what I'll do.

[corruption]

Target range is 8.1-8.3 -- if you can keep a rock solid 8.21, by all means do it. Stability is far better than trying to control the high and the low dips of the swing, and nothing will suffer @ 8.21..

Sorry its been such a trying situation :( Wish I could help more, but I simply don't have a lot of experience when it comes to the reactor side of things... I'd be weary of any advice I may give out.

-Justin

[hobogato]

like justin said, i dont see anything wrong with keeping it at 8.21. why were you trying to keep it at 8.32?

[ErikH]

I can keep it rock solid at 8.21, I am pretty sure. I really really want to know why I cannot get it to stay though. That is driving me NUTS.

[ErikH]

I thought 8.32 was "heaven".

[Bill S]

Erik,

Anything above 8.0 is OK. Shoot when my tank was packed with SPS, it would go down to 7.9 at night. Back up to 8.1 during the day. Seems like you have a whole lot of respiration going on at night? Got a recent FTS?

Looking in another direction, how is your surface turnover? Maybe you aren't getting good aeration?

Just did a quick calculation - how much total water do you have? Even at 1 drop every 4 seconds, you are dumping just over a liter of Ca reactor water into your tank every day. What's the pH of your output? Remembering, pH is on a log scale...

[ErikH]

I am striving for perfection and stability. That is the other reason.

[fishypets]

Relax man! Even if you PH dips below 8 at night that's not a big deal. Every tank I've had including my current one swings no less than .4 over the course of a 24 hour period. As long as your alk is stable you're good. And as far as alk goes I wouldn't push it much past 10. NSW is 8.

[Europhyllia]

Eric,

maybe you're battling windmills here.
Am I reading this correct in that you high is around 8.3 and your low is 8.0 (worst case - sometimes better)?
Do I understand it right that it is that 0.3 swing that bothers you?
Personally I don't think a swing like this is that horrible.
I enjoy reading Randy Homes-Farley's Reef Chemistry column. Here's one I bookmarked for myself:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.php

If I remember this correctly you do not really make use of eliminating CO2 at night by running your fuge lights on a reverse cycle. If your fuge is big enough that might be able to cut your swing a little bit.
In my old (small) fuge I ran it on reverse cycle and it didn't do much to balance the diurnal pH swing but when I installed Ace's new big sump and added more lights I almost instantly cut my swing by 0.2 points.
I also run a CO2 scrubber. Here's a link to a RC discussion on this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15895515#post15895515
I honestly don't think you need it though. I bet there are lots of successful SPS keepers with a small pH swing like yours.

If nothing else check out Randy's column (link above) and see if anything seems applicable.

I think of you as the SPS guru so if yours croak I am not even going near acro. lol

[ErikH]

Bill, lol I have been keeping the tops open, leaving the doors and windows open at night, you name it!

I am just much more aware of the swing now. That is what is messing with my brain. I figured I could keep my levels where ever I wanted, not fight to keep them steady. :(

Everywhere I have always read and been told is "Dose to get your levels where you want them, and use your reactors to keep them there." I was assuming that blanket statement is only to cover CA, Alk, and PH, just not Mg. If keeping it there is fine, then so am I. :D

[hobogato]

i think several people are hitting on something whether they know it or not.

CO2 tends to build up in our homes and can cause issues with tank pH. try opening a window for a little while every day if possible to bring fresh air into the apartment and make sure you are getting good gas exchange between your tank and the air around it. you may even try adding a small fan behind your tank to keep the CO2 from building up in that nook behind your tank.

[corruption]

Erik -- the sweet spot is really a variable on a tank-to-tank basis... 8.3, as you're finding, is probably a lofty goal thats difficult to obtain in a sustainable manner. As Bill said, as long as its above 8.0, things will be happy -- stability is much more key... If you're able to hold 8.21 stable, I'd say do it -- you'll prolly see a near overnight difference..

-Justin

[Bill S]

Eric, maybe you're battling windmills here.

Me thinks she hit the nail on the head.

[ErikH]

Karin, lol I have those same bookmarks.

Like I said, I think I am just much more aware now. It can swing from as high as you set it down to 7.81 every single night. Not a small swing by any sort.

Sorry fishy, if you saw what my tank looked like to what it looks like today, you would understand. It sucks to the Nth degree. Years of growth shot down overnight. :(

I guess a better question is why would it swing that much? Last night, I dosed. It got to 8.34. This AM with the reactor cranking away it was 8.03. The reservoir runs dry nightly trying to keep up.

Bill I understand about the 1 liter thing, but before this I was dripping much much more. The PH was steady all day long. You think the higher drip rate was causing it to drop lower than 7.8 overnight?

I am not trying to be a pickle here, I just need some help and am fearful of losing what I work so hard for.

[corruption]

Agreed -- chasing stability at the peak of range is likely causing more trauma with the up-and-down than just letting things be stable, at 'less-than-optimum' (which is really a misnomer -- this is variable per tank and is dependent on many things -- overall airflow in the house, input/outgassing of CO2 in the tank, types of stock kept, etc).. Its very likely that your optimum range IS 8.21 -- if this is where you're able to maintain stability..

-Justin

[TexasTodd]

Ditto what Ace said, I was thinking the same.

Does your tank water surface look all mixed up?

I'm confused on your top off overfilling. It should be set / controlled in accordance with your evaporation, NOT your PH. If it's tied to PH then you are over dosing and risk loosing everything to a salinaty drop!

Todd

[Europhyllia]

I'm confused on your top off overfilling. It should be set / controlled in accordance with your evaporation, NOT your PH. If it's tied to PH then you are over dosing and risk loosing everything to a salinaty drop!
Todd

Thanks for asking that. I didn't get how that was set up either but didn't dare to ask. :blushing:

[Bill S]

Erik, I'm still going back to your Ca Reactor. Just thinkin'. A 75 is on the small side for a Ca reactor - you know, most folks with that size tank just dose.

Doing the logarithmic math... Your 1 liter of 6.6 pH water, is about 300x more acetic than your tank water. Where are you dripping this? Is it getting good aeration right after it hits the sump? Can you only dose during the day?

[ErikH]

The effluent goes through a second chamber. 6.6 is what it is in the first, 7.8 is what is coming out. It drips into the sump, right next to the skimmer.

If I dosed everyday I would go broke, lol.

Todd, the ATO res is not overflowing, the sump is. The ATO reservoir is shared. I share it with my KWR, which runs off PH. All night long, drip by drip it fills and nearly overflows the sump.

I knew the reactor was large, but I figured I had it set right because my PH was fine during the day, as was my CA and Alk.

I am going to pray that tonight goes as planned. :)

[ErikH]

Oh, Todd, I see where it's getting confusing.

I have a JBJ ATO. It is plugged into a power strip. This is the same powerstrip that my KWR is plugged into. It does not turn on until 2 things happen. A.) the ph drops and B.)the water level drops The controller controls that strip.

It's doubly safe that way, unless my PH was to spike upward, but then my salinity would only go up because the ATO would not kick on due to the high PH.

[Europhyllia]

So do you have an extra feshwater reservoir that tops off for evaporation if pH doesn't drop?

[ErikH]

no. It is shared.

[ErikH]

Speaking of:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16257283#post16257283

[Europhyllia]

Speaking of:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16257283#post16257283

Well see you could have gotten that answer right here ... from me ... the non-expert. Ha!


fresher air, the use of saturated limewater to replace all evaporation, and maybe a reverse light cycle refugium

[ErikH]

Karin, better go buy you some SPS!

[TexasTodd]

I don't understand on the top off. It should be dumping in to your sump.