Zoas not opening

[twychopen]

Maybe I am rushing to conclusions but I don't think this is good. These are my first zoanthids so I am a newbie. The zoas started to open this morning but now have completely closed. I have had them for about two weeks and they have opened completely and closed completely every day so I assume they are doing well. Just today they started to close and now are completely closed. I am attaching some pics. Any advice? I am going to check the water parameters soon so I can post those here.:whew:

[Mr Cob]

Welcome to MAAST!

How about tank specs...?

Lighting?
Tank start date?

The tank looks fairly new...judging by the lack of algae...did you go through a cycle yet?

[txav8r]

X2

Welcome to MAAST

Might be a bit soon to be adding corals. Let us know when you get those water perameters tested.

[twychopen]

Its been about 6 weeks. The tank looks clean because I just cleaned the glass a few days ago. The cycle has been completed. The corals have been doing great until today. Also, I have a 250W MH with 2 vho actinics. Its 380 Watts total if I remember correctly. I have the actinics turn on at a 8 and turn off at 4, the MH turns on at 11 and run till 3pm.

[Mr Cob]

Some corals are very sensitive and need established aquariums to do well. That could be the problem. Most zoas are pretty hardy...but there's the occasional colony that just won't do well with a new tank.

It's a possible answer to your problem. There may be other determining factors...such as parameters...what are they....how about temp...heat...cold...what's your temp at? How old are your bulbs?

[Pennies2Cents]

Having the love for zoa's It seems that it may be just a little irritated from the water difference of their previous tank. Give them a couple days! :) Im sure they will be alright.

Welcome to MAAST.. :)

[twychopen]

Temp 79
Salinity 1.026
PH 8.0
Ammonia 0 ppm
Nitrite 0 ppm
Nitrate 15ppm
Phosphate 0

The bulbs are all brand new. Well the coral immediately opened when I placed it in the tank two sundays ago and ever since has been opening and closing. Today it started to then closed again. It seemed to like the tank fine until now. I have heard that sometimes they just dont open for a few days???

[allan]

Are you sure that tank cycled before your addition? By my reckoning your tank was at four weeks, two weeks ago when you added the zoas. My tank started getting brown diatoms at around week two and it lasted about two months.

I have a colony of Orange Zoas (formally called Sunkist Zoas) that absolutely hates it when I dose the tank. All of the other Zs do fine, but those Orange one's close up and stay timid for a few days after my dosing.

[twychopen]

Hmm. Well I awas fairly postive. I also have a large amount of live rock that I received from a friend who has large tanks. I added that when I started the tank to speed the process up. I would side with your experience though because this is my first saltwater tank.

[corruption]

Everyone is right -- your tank's not cycled quite yet... you'll probably avoid a lot of die-off with your source of rock, but the natural progression of life will still occur, and this is usually a long-term process of 4-6 months before true stability... it starts to stabilize for life at about 1.5-2 months, though many push sooner than this.

No fret though! Just keep up with water changes -- zoa's are hardy, they'll prolly make it through unscathed. :)

Welcome to the hobby, and allow me to quote another wise member here -- "Nothing good happens fast" :bigsmile:

-Corruption

[allan]

Your numbers look like it's cycled already so that shouldn't be a concern... unless you are, like me, color blind and those readings are all false... :) JK, your numbers look good so you have already went way past my ability to help.

Perhaps its too high up in your tank? I have sets of zoas that like it up high, and a few that like it down low, and both do poorly in the other's position. Two weeks I would try moving them either for lighting reasons or perhaps flow.

[allan]

Everyone is right -- your tank's not cycled quite yet...

Not trying to speed him up, but the lack of AM and 'trites and the presence of the 'trates imply that, although maybe not stable, his cycle has run it's course.

[corruption]

Numbers don't mean anything at 4 weeks -- its age... the cycle is inevitable, not just the nitrogen cycle -- the bloom of life... this is where your initial algae phases come from, and theres inevitable wax and wane... Thats why most recommendations are to let a tank age for a month or 6 before you start stocking -- patience is a big key to long-term sustainable success in this hobby. :)

In my opinion, a tank is not truly and fully cycled until it is at 6 months of age with stability... again, just my opinion.

Do note, my WWM side tends to leak out a lot, and many opinions differ from mine... but I'm steadfast in my opinions on the subject :)

-Corruption

[twychopen]

Well they have been in almost the exact same location for the two weeks and have been fine until then. I have noticed an oily substance on the top of the water. That may be it. I have dosed calcuim for the past two days becuase it was low. You may have to turn your head, the picture was taken at an angle.

[ErikH]

Maybe its your lights. Move the zoas to a shady spot and see what happens.

[allan]

I can certainly agree with you, particularly when referencing the blooms which doesn't seem to have touched his tank yet. And patience is indeed the virtue here.

Also would like to point out that I am still learning a lot myself, please don't take what I'm saying as gospel. The numbers that you show at six weeks indicate a presence of nitrates, which mean that ammonia and nitrite are being consumed and returned to the system in the form of nitrates. This portion of the cycle seems to have passed.

But ask around, particularly Ping, will tell you that the "new tank syndrome" is still in your future.

Dude, you're dosing with calcium? I would imagine, someone step in if I'm wrong please, you wouldn't need calcium added to your tank. Right now your water changes and the calcium in your salt should be carrying over fine.

You don't have any calcium consumers in there at all. Not even coraline is visible. Is there another reason why you are dosing?

[allan]

Maybe its your lights. Move the zoas to a shady spot and see what happens.

^5

:)

[txav8r]

Yep. Shouldn't need to be dosing anything at this point. Just slow down a tad, do waterchanges and let it do what it's gonna do.

[twychopen]

I am dosing because the Calcium levels are low acording to Saliferts Calcium Test. I will test shortly to see what it says again.

[joelb]

it looks like you have a nice little setup there, once life starts to grow its going to be pretty nice. good choice on the rimless tank.

[twychopen]

Its actually an ADA tank for planted aquariums. :) I am going to post a thread for my entire setup. It is a failry advanced setup, I just am not finished wiring and so forth. My office is perfect for this and you guys will see why when I post pictuers. I will keep you updated! :)

BTW thanks for all your help everyone! I will keep you posted on this "problem" I may have.

[corruption]

I was just discussing Amano's tanks with someone at work this morning! They really are works of art...

(both his personal/show planted tanks, and the equipment built by ADA ;)

-Corruption

[diego]

I had some zoas that weren't opening. I moved them to the bottom of the tank and they opened right up. I have since moved them up a little and they are doing fine.

[stoneroller]

Zoas also get irritated when detritus settles on them or when pests attack.

Take a turkey baster and blast them "clean". I have a colony of Kedds that consistently respond positively to my baster blasting. Try that first. Make sure you have enough current to keep them happy too.

It's also possible your frag is harboring pests. Check it out with a magnifying glass, a flashlight at night, and/or by dipping them in RO water treated with a little lugol's. Zoa-eating nudis, spiders, and sundial snails are common hitchhikers. Some of us keep guard dogs that'll take care of the pests. Mine is a Hoeven's wrasse; green coris is another good choice. IME, amphipods are also irritants that'll dispose of a colony in short order.

[stoneroller]

PS. What are your alkalinity and calcium levels?

[twychopen]

quick question. Has anyone had any experience using the salifert calcium readers?

If I am doing it correctly, When I start the syringe is at .75ml. I add the drops into the Ca solution and it went all the way down to .14ml in the syringe. So do I subtract those two numbers to get the reading, or just use .14ml? If use .14ml my Ca is at 430ppm. If I subtract the two, it would be at 180ppm. That is why I was dosing Ca and I am thinking that I did it wrong. If anyone has the Ca from Salifter step 6 says to read 2 different marks on the syringe. Not sure why that is if you only need the one. Could this be the problem of having too much calcium or dosing too much too quickly?

[allan]

I have to wonder why you're dosing at all. I don't think at this point you have much of a calcium consumption. Unless you're trying to "purple it up" which I would still advice that time will take care of this.

Sorry, no experience with the calcium salifert test. I do know that I hate testing...

[twychopen]

the reason was becuase I was reading it wrong. The way i did it was i took the two marks on the syringe (just the way saliferts work) and subtracted them. Then it gave me a very low ppm number (180ppm) doing it that way. (thats why I dosed Ca) I went back and re-read the instructions a few times and realized there is no math, just read the last mark and match on the table. Now, doing it the correct way I have 430ppm (a large difference from what I tested two days ago). So, I have stopped dosing it now realizing that the Ca is fine. Could dosing Ca when I don't need to cause the Zoas to react poorly?

[stoneroller]

It's great you have chosen a quality kit for your reef!

It's easier to start the the plunger at the 1 ml mark, titrate, then read the syringe to tell you how many ml of solution remain (that is what the table is telling you). So using your approach (assuming I understand correctly), you would take 1 minus (0.75-0.14) to end up at 0.39 ml remaining = 305 ppm Ca

[twychopen]

Yes, the 0.75-0.14 is what I was doing. That is the incorrect way. I should just read the number on the syringe after the solution has changed to blue and then find that number on the chart correct?

[twychopen]

So I moved the Zoa, is it ok if Blue Leg Hermit crabs get on it? Will they eat it?

[twychopen]

It's also possible your frag is harboring pests. Check it out with a magnifying glass, a flashlight at night, and/or by dipping them in RO water treated with a little lugol's.

How much Iodine to RO water? and how long do I leave it in for?

[txav8r]

This is what I go by.


Try an iodine (Lugols) dip. Sometimes pests like planeria can irritate the base. Dip them in 4 drops per liter of tank water, for 15 minutes. GENTLY shake them around after the dip - you don't want to damage them!

This can be done daily - they seem to "like" it.

This was for a torch coral but the iodine to water ratio should be the same.

[snfkotara]

Just a suggestion maybe put them where they can get a little more flow that usually works for me when they really start to open then I move them to a spot with med. flow.

[ErikH]

So I moved the Zoa, is it ok if Blue Leg Hermit crabs get on it? Will they eat it?


It's ok, no, blue legs will not eat zoas.

[stoneroller]

I should just read the number on the syringe after the solution has changed to blue and then find that number on the chart correct?

Yes, just start off at one ml.

RO usually does the trick by itself, just a little drop of iodine/lugol's/coral dip will do.

[allan]

Could dosing Ca when I don't need to cause the Zoas to react poorly?


When I dose my tank I have no problems except for the sunkist zoas. I have four patches of these guys growing in my tank and another couple of frags in the fuge. When I dose these guys all close down. It takes a couple of days for them to tentatively open up.

But the ONLY reason I dose is because I have several sps that tend to deplete my calcium levels. I do not think that any of my zoas are particularly large calcium consumers. There is a balance in chemistry that comes along with calcium but until just a few months ago I've relied on water changes to provide the necessary minerals.

Have your zoas opened yet?

[twychopen]

Nope, in fact today I tested and just as you all thought, I dosed too early. (reasoning explained above) The Alkalinity is 5.6 up from 3.09 and the KH is 15.7 up from 8.6!!! I am doing a water change right now and hopefully this will help. Also, all the snails have fallen off the glass and seem to be reacting poorly. These are very high jumps, I wish I wouldn't have read the tests wrong last week. :(

[allan]

How did the water change go? How much did you change out?

I don't know if it would work for you but setting up another small ten gallon with freshly made salt water at the right temperature to house your zoas and snails until you remedy your main tank might be an idea.

[twychopen]

I changed 8 gallons from about a 60gallon total system. I do have an extra 10 gallon in the office. Actually 2, one for new water and one for the quarintine but its not set up like i want it yet. I'm about to go back and check (its at my office not house :/) I will update asap.

[twychopen]

The snails are not doing anytihng, I think they may have died. The fish and crabs are all alive still. Another note, Idk if they are copepods or not but there are a bunch of long black bugs that crawl around in the substrate...anyone know if they are good or bad? Couldn't get a good look at them for a better description...

[ErikH]

If your snails died it may have tanked your PH.

[twychopen]

The ph is still at 8.1 I have it monitored with a milwaukee ph monitor.

[twychopen]

So, to "bump" the thread, is this the most likely cause of the zoas not opening? Will this kill them?

[stoneroller]

I suspect so. I would imagine survival under alkalinities that high would be difficult.

[twychopen]

I just tested the water again:
Temp 79.1
Salinity 1.0235
PH 8.0
Alk 3.89 (down from 5.6)
KH 10.9 (down from 15.7)

Now, the zoas have not opened up yet, how can I tell if they are dead? They still are the same purple color as they have always been. All my fish and crabs are still living btw.

[twychopen]

Is there anything I can do besides water changes to get the calcium and Alk and KH down? I have changed a lot of water in the past 3 days but it is still somewhat high. I don't want to lose the corals :/

[corruption]

Water changes and time -- remember, nothing good happens fast in this hobby... Keep it up, if everything is maintaining the status quo, and not looking like the zoas are sloshing away, you should be fine. Just keep the water changes going, and keep watching the water stats -- you're doing what you need to be :)

-Corruption

[twychopen]

Current Readings




11/25/2009
Temperature


79.6
Salinity


1.023
pH


8.1
Alkalinity


3.77
KH (dKH)


10.6
Ammonia


0
Nitrite (NO-2)


0
Nitrate (NO-3)


15
Nitrate (NO-3)
N/A
Phosphate


0
Calcium


400

[Mr Cob]

Now, the zoas have not opened up yet, how can I tell if they are dead? They still are the same purple color as they have always been. All my fish and crabs are still living btw.

Zoas are funny...you could think the whole colony is dead and not see anything for months and then a little polyp re-appears.

I just had this happen recently. I had a large colony of purple heart zoas and the all died. So I put the rock next to another colony to grow onto and sure enough last week I see a little polyp emerging from the base of the rock coming out of the sand. LOL!

They are normally dead when the matt is flat and overgwon with algae.

[twychopen]

So far the zoas haven't opened... but they are not losing color or dying (based on what I can tell). They seem to have a few whitish spots on them now though. Any ideas as to what it is?

[twychopen]

Temp 80.1
Sal 1.023
PH 8.1
Alk 2.4
KH 7.7
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20
Phos 0
Calcium 260
Those are the parameters now. I have gotten rid of the high calcium alk and KH levels. Thats the good news, the bad news is the zoas aren't doin anything. I will keep waiting but I am worried they are dead. They look the same. (Hopefully I will put pics monday) Any ideas?

[diego]

Could be zoa pox. www.zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=752 (http://www.zoaid.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=752)

[Big_Pun]

zoas are weird sometimes, i have colonies that do good then close up for a while, like cob said they might die and come back, i think your doing a great job with your tank, all you can do is sit back and watch. hopefully they will come back.

[corruption]

zoas are weird sometimes, i have colonies that do good then close up for a while, like cob said they might die and come back, i think your doing a great job with your tank, all you can do is sit back and watch. hopefully they will come back.

^^ This is good advice. If they haven't melted away, the chances of them surviving are high... at this point, anything you would do to try to help them, water parameter wise, would probably delay their opening. I would just let sleeping dogs lie, and enjoy the tank for a while :)

-Corruption

[twychopen]

Good news! A few of the zoas began to open yesterday and now a few more are opened today! They are not as dark purple on the stems as they were, but they are still very lime green! I am wondering if I should use Lugol's on them now or not (I was going to get it today from Aquarium Masters). Any recommendations? Also I think there are a few spores of aiptasia on them...

Any help is greatly appreciated :D

[corruption]

They tend to like the lugol's treatment, so no harm there.. but if they're opening, thats a good sign :) They'll get their color back, just give it time :)

-Corruption

[twychopen]

What happens when I find a loose zoa on the bottom of my tank? It is completely open it has just seperated from the "mother ship". You can see the mother colony in the middle and one single zoa to the right of it (to the left of the large rock structure on the right.)

Also is the second picture the begining of coraline algae or just purple algae?

[stoneroller]

That purple may be cyanobacteria. Hard to tell from the photo. Scrape it off and see if its soft or hard.

Catch that loose zoa polyp and superglue (gel) it to a small piece of rubble so it won't float around. Or let it roll around and see where it ends up. It could be a dark shadow which wouldn't be good.

[twychopen]

What is a dark shadow and why wouldnt it be good?

[corruption]

A dark shadow, meaning a place that light is not penetrating the coverage of the rocks... It wouldn't be good, because the zoa wouldn't get enough light to take root/grow/multiply/survive :)

-Justin

[H2Ochem]

A dark shadow, meaning a place that light is not penetrating the coverage of the rocks... It wouldn't be good, because the zoa wouldn't get enough light to take root/grow/multiply/survive :)

-Justin

That would really depend on the origin of the species. Wouldn't it?

[corruption]

Well, yes -- but its a good blanket assumption.. chances that its going to thrive in a shadowy spot are far less likely.

-Justin

[H2Ochem]

Well, yes -- but its a good blanket assumption.. chances that its going to thrive in a shadowy spot are far less likely.

-Justin

Well, I would not "blanket" any in thing this hobby. Certainly would not call it an "assumption" in any scenario. We can look at deep water zoas and how many hobbyist lose them. Low light and cold to warm water current is major.

[corruption]

Well, again, you can feel however you want about the situation. The fact is -- its a zoa off a colony of his, the one that has been the issue of contention in this thread -- that has shown to begin expanding again WHEN IN the light. Considering that this colony has had some rough going thus far, and is showing to be happy where the main colony is in the light, I don't think that it would be a good idea to let the loose polyp attempt to root in the shadows. Since its shown that this is NOT an ultra-sensitive deep water zoa, there is no need for concern. The statements I made were blanket statements, but were geared towards his situation... a situation that myself and many others have been helping him with for several weeks now.

Think however you want to think, exceptions aside, a large majority of zoas available in the hobby fall under the blanket assumption that I asserted. The fact that there are EXCEPTIONS, does not change this.

-Justin

[H2Ochem]

Well, again, you can feel however you want about the situation. The fact is -- its a zoa off a colony of his, the one that has been the issue of contention in this thread -- that has shown to begin expanding again WHEN IN the light. Considering that this colony has had some rough going thus far, and is showing to be happy where the main colony is in the light, I don't think that it would be a good idea to let the loose polyp attempt to root in the shadows. Since its shown that this is NOT an ultra-sensitive deep water zoa, there is no need for concern. The statements I made were blanket statements, but were geared towards his situation... a situation that myself and many others have been helping him with for several weeks now.

Think however you want to think, exceptions aside, a large majority of zoas available in the hobby fall under the blanket assumption that I asserted. The fact that there are EXCEPTIONS, does not change this.

-Justin

Well, it was the colony I was concerned about, that has been under light..... not a loose polyp. Since the colony had, not a loose polyp, issues "when in light" I choose to provide an insight to other issues. I saw no evidence that it was "NOT an ultra-sensitive deep water zoa." In fact I saw no post to the question as to the origin of the colony. Perhaps I missed it. I believe its been two weeks now the colony has had issues. Do u think it may now be adjusting to increased light intensity and beginning to open? Since it has had issue "when in light" to begin with. If u feel that there are not exceptions that do not change the situation feel free to do so. Perhaps the blanket statements do not apply in all situations. But, it appears your far beyond me, feel free to do so.

[corruption]

Well, it was the colony I was concerned about, that has been under light..... not a loose polyp. Since the colony had, not a loose polyp, issues "when in light" I choose to provide an insight to other issues. I saw no evidence that it was "NOT an ultra-sensitive deep water zoa." In fact I saw no post to the question as to the origin of the colony. Perhaps I missed it. I believe its been two weeks now the colony has had issues. Do u think it may now be adjusting to increased light intensity and beginning to open? Since it has had issue "when in light" to begin with. If u feel that there are not exceptions that do not change the situation feel free to do so. Perhaps the blanket statements do not apply in all situations. But, it appears your far beyond me, feel free to do so.

I base my assessment of the situation on the fact that as this, and his other thread for negatively reacting corals, there have been definitively identifiable potential causes of irritation/lack of expansion. As these have been corrected, things have progressively improved -- as is usually the case when you're on the right track. You're right, the origins of the zoa colony were not directly discussed, and I'm so very sorry for missing this semantical point. Based on the events of this thread, and this same users other thread with a similar situation (albeit regarding a Euphyllia coral), I still feel my assessment is valid. Since you seem to just want to find any way you can to invalidate me, I'll let you go ahead and do so. I'll remit myself from further commentary here.

-Justin

[stoneroller]

I'd bet you five zoa polyps the ones in question are not deepwater zoas; I think it's rather obvious from the photo provided in Post #58. They probably would have already melted away! Twychopen, where did you get your polyps? Online? or from a local reef shop?

[twychopen]

I got them from the shop in corpus. Tropical fish haven. Ok maybe I should have started a new post, the ones on the right in the picture (the one with a loose zoa) are new zoas from the same store. They were not the ones that had the problem earlier in the original posting. As far as I can tell those are doing great after the lugols. The one in the middle is the one with the loose zoanthid and it may be the dark spot where the zoas had started growing on the side of the plate they are on...I am not 100% positive because I don't see a spot where 1 is missing...

I was wondering if maybe it is a deficiency in nutrients they need to grow? I checked my water 2 days ago and everything was either right on or very close to where it needs to be (Calcium was about 350).

oh, also, hahaha "Dark Shadow" I thought it was some scientific reefing term for something really bad. Like bacteria in the water that kills everything or red tide or something. Hahahahah. I guess the simplest use of the words are usually the right way to interpret hahaahaha.

[stoneroller]

Time and patience is needed for them to grow! Hopefully, someday you'll be asking "how do I stop them from spreading!??" Good luck.

[twychopen]

Ok, this goes back to my zoanthid thread but i want to figure it out for future sake. I am trying to figure out why my Calcium is so low. I have a few pieces of chalice or montipora ( :( i dont know which, they are tiny) that have completely turned white. They seemed to be doing fine a few weeks ago. Also, the zoanthids that I have had for a month or so are doing a lot better but are not spreading, and I actually see a spot that seems to be receding. They all are very deep in color and opened, and have grown in length since I got them but I am just curious as to why it seems like no coraline algae is growing (I have rocks that have it on it that I have put into the tank) and the corals are doing strange things. (I also have a xenia that pulses but the "fingers" are curled.) I am trying to be patient and not dose anything but the ph is 8.3 and salinity is 2.028, temp 80.2 no Nitrates, Nitrites, Ammonia, or Phos. The only things that seem to be low is Calcium (around 350 and magnesium 1150). I have change about 15% of water every week.

I have the stuff to dose but I don't want to unless absolutely necessary. I have been reading up to try to figure out whether or not to dose. Here are the instuctions from BRS. http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/Recipe-1-Instructions-for-Bulk-Packaged-Materials (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/Recipe-1-Instructions-for-Bulk-Packaged-Materials)

[Europhyllia]

I don't know if I oversimplified this but basically I started to dose when stuff got depleted faster than I was replenishing it with 10% weekly water changes.
Kalkwasser has been an easy solution for me (timed ATO) but I also use two Salifert products in addition to that. For some reason my clams and coco worms seem to be really into building scutes and tubes and they appear to be sucking the stuff right up.

[twychopen]

Yeah that makes sense, but I just don't know what could be depleting it so quickly. I have 7 polyps on a hammer coral, a few small zoanthids, a pulsing xenia and thats it. I haven't even seen the start of coraline algae :(. I think it just doesnt start out very high.

[stoneroller]

What are you using to measure salinity? Your salinity is a bit high at 1.028. I shoot for 1.025.

Why are you convinced that your calcium is being depleted at a fast rate? 350 is not a bad place to be on calcium given your current demand (a few softies).

Just try adding a little iodine to see how the xenia respond. That should open them up for you.

Coraline will take some time to start covering surfaces. Someday you'll be cursing it while you scrape. Patience....

[twychopen]

I use a refractometer. Well when my salinity was lower the corals seemed to not like it as much. Im don't necessarily thinkthat it is being depleted quickly, I think it may start off low to begin with. I tested last night and the Calcium was around 320. How much iodine? I have read that you can easily overdose iodine. The weird thing to me is that the zoanthids are gaining color and growing longer, but they seem to be shrinking in colony size. If you look at the first picture, the zoanthids that are by themselves on the corner are now completely gone. Daniel is coming by on Saturday if it works out and hopefully a more experienced reefer will give me a good idea of what I am looking at :)

I'm just gonna cross my fingers on the coraline algae. I am hoping it only covers the back glass hahaha. jk i know that thats not gonna happen.

[stoneroller]

Just follow the directions on the iodine