DIY rock

[allan]

Ok, been reading around the 'net. This is what I've come up with.

5 parts sand/crushed sea shell or coral, 1 part cement. Mix and add some rock salt. Then when the form has been made apply the rock salt to the outside of the form to give the porus effect after the salt disolves through the curing process.

Cure the cement for several days in a damp environment (longer the cure the harder the product), then leaching out all of the undesirables for four to six weeks, or until such a time that the water in the bucket has a ph of 7 or lower. Replacing the water every other day or so.

To make the structure strong and in a general shape that I want I have the accepted method of molding the damp sand used to cure the rock as a mold. What I have in mind is constructing out of pvc pipe the structure that I want (a good elaborate base rock that will hold and display my existing rock), attach egg crate to the sections where a shelf is necessary. Then to drill holes throughout the structure to allow the 'crete to adhere solidly to the pvc structure. Apply to pvc structure from the bottom up, filling in the tub with sand to help the 'crete hold its form.

Ok, what's wrong with this plan? Do I have the parts down right? I'm a little concerned as to the general maleability (sp?) of the 'crete while it's wet and whether I will be able to achieve the shape that I want.

[corruption]

This all sounds correct to me, based on my understanding of Aragocrete -- I haven't made any myself, but this all seems correct. Your concerns about malleability and shapeability are warranted -- the most difficult part of the process was figuring out how to shape as you desire as I had read it.

I've thought about doing this myself several times, but have never brought myself to actually doing it. I think the potential pH shifts have always staved me away from it. I would, however, like to modify this idea for the Port A biotope I'm looking to assemble in the next year or so -- I'd like to make a 'jetty wall' using an aragocrete mixture with some crushed up red granite -- thought this would look pretty nifty... Got the idea after seeing the 'rock wall' backdrops that Dave's Rare Aquarium Fish has on a couple displays.

Let us know how it goes, if you go through with it! The total time needed for the pH shifting to stop is my biggest interest, personally..

-Corruption

[Europhyllia]

I've looked into this and the feedback I got is that it takes weeks/months for it to cure to acceptable pH levels. (like people kept the rocks in their toilet water reservoir so that they would continuously get new fresh water over them and then be flushed and it still took 2-3 months until the rocks stopped leaching)

[corruption]

Yeah, thats what I've heard too, and that duration kinda scares me... but it would look so good to have an in-set jetty wall in the back of a port a biotope ;)

I may try it, I may not.. but it sure seems like it'd be attractive.

-Corruption

[Bill S]

You can regularly buy live rock from MAASTards for $2 a pound. Why bother...

[corruption]

Because theres specific things you may be looking for -- in Allan's case, its probably specific levels and structure, that he's had a hard time creating despite imagining... in my case, live rock won't help create a unique in-tank backdrop as I'm imagining... Different strokes for different folks ;)

Plus, it is more ecologically conscious to create your own source of rock, instead of harvesting the oceans..

-Corruption

[allan]

Yeah, I wish I could take credit for the eco side of making my own, but it isn't a factor.

I have to stay busy and making this seems interesting. I get a charge out of working outside with wood metal or now in this case rock. As far as buying rock from others... I've been looking for those few pieces that I really want, long branching piece or two is all I'm looking for. I really don't need anymore rock in the tank.

What I've imagined is a chair like structure to lay and prop my existing rock in a more aesthetically pleasing form that will allow more use of some of the area just ignored now. I have milk crate now to make a large cave and it spills out into two walls/cavey area so that there are three viewing areas to the tank. The time it takes for the rock can by up to six months and it wouldn't be a problem because I don't really need any rock at all, I would just like to replace the plastic with rock and shape it to my will then to work with what is available.

The jetty idea made me think of something. If I had a long tank, really long, would it be possible to set up a Jetty- Styled wall in the middle, wave maker on one side that will send the water up to and over (and filtered through) allowing for an SPS dominant side while the other side and moderate flow be used for softies? Not sure if that's what you have in mind, but it sounds cool. Especially the red rock.

[ErikH]

Almost all of my rock is DIY. I have pillars and a large arch. I wish Patrick still posted, the rock he makes is absolutely unbelieveable. Last time I saw him, he had made the entire back wall of a tank look like an old wall with a Mayan-style face coming off it. VERY cool. The main thing that I noticed is that the fascia of the rock is uber crumbly, but once you get it all soaked in water it becomes very strong structurally. I was very nervous will all of the pieces at first because they were literally falling apart in my hand. You can come by again and look Allan, That way you can judge the consistency of the material of the finished product. Most people make theirs too smooth and mushy. The kind I have has infinite amounts of holes that are teeming with life, pods, spaghetti worms etc.

[ErikH]

you do know the difference between kuring and curing right :) ?

[corruption]

that is an interesting idea, and with some playing, it could probably be made to work well... But the idea I've got is more akin to what everyone's been doing with the Great Stuff backgrounds -- replace a flat painted, or plastic-adhered backdrop with something unique. My idea was to make a wet aragacrete mix, and use small pieces of the jetty rock in the back, to make it appear as if the jetty wall is the back of the tank. I'd lay the tank on its side, and lay out the aragacrete mix, then apply the chipped rocks in teh desired fashion. Let it dry for several days, then do the necessary flushing of the pH dropping components of the mix. Dave's Rare Aquarium Fish (a largely African Cichlid dominated store here in San Antonio) has this same idea done in a couple tanks, using river rock instead... its a very unique look, and definitely achieves the goal of hiding the plumbing..

I do like the idea of a split-long tank design like you describe though... in theory, as long as the jetty is blocking something around 2/3 of the flow from the high flow side from blasting into the low-flow side, it should function... as long as its not so dense that the water has a hard time balancing from side to side, I imagine it could work.

-Corruption

[ErikH]

Corruption, if you really want to get crazy, I can share a link with you.

http://www.aquatic-eden.com/2007/10/creating-waterfall-illusion-underwater.html

Best waterfall I have seen to date. Very simple idea as well.

[Roo&Lis]

Now that is way cool!

[corruption]

Oh wow, you just killed half a day of my 3 day weekend ;) (ah, the joys of working night shift)

That looks absolutely stunning... thank you for that link.

-Corruption

[ErikH]

I've been keeping that one for a rainy day, but since you and Allan seem dedicated to wasting some time for a good reason, I figured I would give it up. :)

[corruption]

Well, I'm slowly assembling my wood and acrylic-working tools, so I don't have to run crying to Ace when I need something anymore... But the tank that I intend to do the Port A biotope with, is in dire need of a new stand. Its the main reason I bought Jeffro's 75, because it was cheaper than getting a stand built to the current tank's bizarre specs (33.5x14.75x19.25 -- it was an OLD display tank from Fin-Addict, before they put in the long tanks along the walls :) )

...of course, 'it was cheaper' was just my excuse to upgrade my current tank into better settings, and free up the current for a Port A biotope ;)

Since I've got at least a couple months before I'll be fully ready to start the work on the wood and acrylic aspects of what the tank will need, I'll have plenty of time to get the tank drilled and let the aragacrete mix cure well. I'm fairly certain I'll end up doing this, though I'm still batting around what means I want to take to achieve it. Aragacrete just seemed like the most long-term beneficial method, since it will eventually become a fully populated hunk along the back wall.

The wife, however, has a thing for cichlids and planted tanks, so things like this give me other projects to start on...

Ahh, Mike and Scott V.'s quote over at Glass-holes.com really is the truth -- "An aquarium is a hole between two pieces of glass that an aquarist fills with money." :bigsmile:

-Corruption

[allan]

Wow, almost makes me want to do a fresh tank!

I wouldn't mind taking another look at your tank. You're telling me that your rock was crumbly in your hands out of water, but once in it firmed up? Have you had any break over the years? Can you gouge it with your finger nail? How long has it been in the tank? do you know his recipe?

[ErikH]

Wow, almost makes me want to do a fresh tank!

I wouldn't mind taking another look at your tank. You're telling me that your rock was crumbly in your hands out of water, but once in it firmed up? Have you had any break over the years? Can you gouge it with your finger nail? How long has it been in the tank? do you know his recipe?

I think I have some small pieces that have yet to see saltwater so you can take it with you. After he Kured it, it sat dry in his garage for awhile before I bought all of it. When I bought it, it was very crumbly.... Very few pieces have ever broke off. It was the best buy ever!

[allan]

Ok, I forgot to ask... Kure verses cure, what's the significance?

I've started with the pvc structure and quickly realized I don't have enough elbow connectors.

[Kyle46N]

Allan, not sure if you started making rock yet, but I would mix your rock salt into the mold. Not just on the outside. And use alot of it. But only mix it in after the water has been added and right before you begin to shape the rock. Mixing the salt into the rock will make it pourous throughout....like real live rock.

[ErikH]

Kuring the rock is the freshwater process. You will need to kure the rock in freshwater, changing it out over several months. Once the PH is stable you should be good to go.

[allan]

Gotcha, it's the distinction between curing the cement slowly for hardness and the kuring process which is the fresh water portion of the process.

Kevin, no, haven't started mixing the stuff yet. I've got the form built out in pvc pipe, need another section of pipe to completely finish it. Started cutting egg crate to add form and stability to the shelf portions. I plan on getting the cement and salt rock today.

Question, and I'm open to advice here, should I liberaly mix in rock salt into the cement when structure integrity is important? I gain a lot of strength IMO from using pvc pipe to hold structure, so that may not be an issue. Thoughts? I may start molding this evening or tomorrow after work.

[corruption]

I'd think that the PVC structure negates a lot of the structural support need, but I still wouldn't go completely nuts here -- for porosity, you can also poke holes through the structure with something like a guitar string or a chopstick -- this can help add in the desired holes, without having to go so far in mixing rock salt into the overall mix.

-Corruption

[allan]

Ok, I've kind of finished the pvc form. What do you think?

This is the front, the other is a side shot... but you can probably already see that (I'm so long winded).

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt295/alaviers/front.jpg

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt295/alaviers/sideview.jpg

I've got the cement, and I got a bag of play sand for the mold (might need more) didn't pick up the rock salt yet. Still waiting to see if I can score a bucket of crushed coral and sand.

Here's another idea that I started toying with. I haven't made the joints on this thing permenant yet, but how does this strike you? I think if I drop a couple of small pumps into the two overflows and feed the output into the form below I would have two additional outlets for flow, probably at the left and right side facing forward mid way up. Think that will work? I figure that if I do that drilling holes in the pvc won't be a good idea because of the pressure generated might weakend and break the agrocrete structure over time.

Thoughts?

[corruption]

I'm sure you could plumb a pump or two into the structure without issues -- I'd agree on the drilling holes throughout though... too much potential to be too strong for the aragacrete mix..

Looks interesting! Kinda reminds me of creatures from Space Invaders :bigsmile:

-Corruption

[ErikH]

Allan you need to go to a feed supply store and pick up a bag of crushed oysters. It will help make it look nice. Have you checked RC? There are tonssss of articles on this there....

[ErikH]

oh, and too much water gives you goopy cement.

[txav8r]

Cool structure. Looks like the early stages of a Battlebot or something from Mythbusters!

[corruption]

Its a Kilrathi War Ship! Man the battle stations! ;)

-Corruption

[allan]

Wow, my daughter likened it to WALL-E or Number Five from the '80s.

I don't know if that long portion in front will fit into a bucket for the molding part. I plan on placing the bed, roughing out the bottom section to form, then I will lay the cement, place the structure and then start the process of adding what I can to it and back filling sand to provide support. I'll leave a portion of the cement and mixture aside for touch up after I pull the final product. At that point I could use wet newspaper to slow the curing process.

I'm still in the air about the pump feed, but it seems like a challenge to get it rigged and measured right. If I can shut off and on each pump independently and force the water only through a couple of holes specific to each pump then I can create additional random flows.

I'll look into the local feed place up on 281 for the crushed oyster shells. Thanks Eric.

[twychopen]

Hey Everyone, I am new to the saltwater hobby but have done freshwater cichlid tanks like crazy, as well as planted tanks. Just some insight, take it with a grain of salt.

For the waterfall that was brought up earlier, I have tried that in all sorts of different ways and it definately is not easy! You have to have quite a bit of air (Tons!) to get the sand to go up a tube but you need very heavy sand or else it will not work. I have tried all sorts of pumps and all sorts of sand. Now it can be done as seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX9DVzY6480&NR=1. If the sand is too light, it floats all over the tank and gets EVERYWHERE! Its not cool if you don't want sand everywhere!

The other thing I have worked with quite a bit is quickcrete to make 3-d backgrounds. I carved styrofoam and then used quickcrete to give texture and weight to the background. If this is what you are worried about giving you high ph, you shouldn't worry too much IME. I changed the water out of the tank 1x a day for 1 week and put fish in it after, they are all still living and its been around 6 months. pH is at about 8.0 which is great for cichlids (I know this is a reef forum but thats what I used mine for). The ph in water with quickcrete is not that high.

Hope this helps. Also, if you are worried about high ph for any other reason besides the quickcrete, then I am not sure, I am only commenting on the quickcrete. Just my 2cents worth :)

Oh, also, if you want to skip the water change process, add muriatic acid (at lowes or hd). It drops the ph pretty quickly and then rises as the cement leaches out any chemicals causing the ph to rise again. Just be careful dont stand close and wear eyeprotection, it will react if you pour too much too quickly.

[corruption]

Quickrete and Portland Cement aren't quite chemically identical -- plus, we're adding quite a bit more to the mix... Go have a look on the aragacrete threads on ReefCentral -- the one universal known about aragacrete is its pH-dropping abilities... its a side effect of the chemical reaction occurring during the hardening process..

-Corruption

[ErikH]

Quickrete and Portland Cement aren't quite chemically identical -- plus, we're adding quite a bit more to the mix... Go have a look on the aragacrete threads on ReefCentral -- the one universal known about aragacrete is its pH-dropping abilities... its a side effect of the chemical reaction occurring during the hardening process..

-Corruption

aka Kuring (not curing, which is done in saltwater after)

[allan]

Just to be clear... I got a bag of portland II (low akalinity) and will be using it one part to five, the other five being crushed coroal, dried out live sand and crushed oyster shells.

I plan on mixing enough to get the bottom of the structure encapsulated, and the mix to be a bit more viscous than pudding perhaps? I don't want it goopy, and I don't want it so thick that it cures (hardens) prior to the molding of it to the structure itself.

Right now I'm just waiting for the sand... oh, and I have to pick up a bag of crushed oyster shells and some rock salt.

[nubz]

what if i were to kure the rock in the ocean? would that cure and kure it?, i have alot of coral skelitons and want to use them to make a cool structure, if there any way to do it without pvc?

[allan]

Dude, if I had a bunch of coral skeleton LR I wouldn't be interested in what I'm doing. I think you would be able to drill holes and link pieces with acrylic rods. Maybe even interlocking pieces that can be further held in place by a dallop of gel super.

I'm doing the pvc for a specific design and a lack of appropriately shaped rocks. I got a really nice piece of LR from Bill a few weeks ago that helped tremendously, now if I could only find a lot more of it for next to nothing...

:)

[jesserettele]

now if I could only find a lot more of it for next to nothing...

:)

Allen please LMK when you find that deal.:bigsmile:

Have you began to mix and apply to your pvc structure? I can't wait to see how it turns out. So what I am reading here, you are going to clump the diy rock on and around the pvc pipe frame and the egg crate shelf?

[nubz]

Dude, if I had a bunch of coral skeleton LR I wouldn't be interested in what I'm doing. I think you would be able to drill holes and link pieces with acrylic rods. Maybe even interlocking pieces that can be further held in place by a dallop of gel super.

I'm doing the pvc for a specific design and a lack of appropriately shaped rocks. I got a really nice piece of LR from Bill a few weeks ago that helped tremendously, now if I could only find a lot more of it for next to nothing...

:)
i dont have THAT much.... just a few LPS bones from softie frags i got that moved and a really cool dead ivory coral colony i found on the port aransas north jetty, (it was all dead when i found it, or else i wouldnt have brought it back) im going to use the bare minimum of concrete and attach it to a piece of dead pukani rock.

[allan]

The plan is to mold it around the pvc pipe and egg crate shelf. I plan on drilling holes in the pvc pipe to allow extra holds for the cement to gain an extra hold onto the structure. Additionally, while I mold it around the pvc I plan on filling the box with play sand to hold shape while it cures for a week or so.

I just got the live sand that will comprise some of the mix, now if only I can find a location for the crushed oyster shell I'll be golden.

Nubs, I don't know if it's worthwhile to get all the materials together just to create a joint compound. But that's just me. LR can be so cheap when you keep your eyes open that making it DIY is only to keep busy or to make a different and hard to find shape. I haven't found anything less than a 50lbs bag of anything.

I have been to Port A looking around last summer. I didn't find anything cool like that dead coral. I did keep my eye open for rock that could be used in the tank. Cool find.

[nubz]

i cant find any rock that looks like i want it to, on top of that im really bored and need a project. you have to snorkel on the north jetty to find the cool stuff ( corals grow better because of the currents/ lack of sediments. )

[allan]

i cant find any rock that looks like i want it to, on top of that im really bored and need a project. you have to snorkel on the north jetty to find the cool stuff ( corals grow better because of the currents/ lack of sediments. )


By north jetty... is that the one where everyone fishs from? And camps on the beach? I was at one of the beaches next to a channel and the jetty there. I didn't realize there was any coral growth or rocks in the area... although I did get a few shells.

[nubz]

thats the south jetty. the north jetty is only accsessable by boat. its much less polluted and over fished like the south jetty... our coral is ivory coral. im prettysure its non zooanthetic because the the water is cloudy and sediment filled most of the time. and water temps reach the low 50's sometimes. its illegal to harvest live corals but i find dead skeletons every now and then. i will post my email for people wanting to contact me in the spring through fall when they are coming to port a and want some help catching cool stuff... im also trying to get my collectio/ vending liscense so i can sell the fish i catch