ERRRRRRR !!! Marine Ich !!!!

[Paul28]

well i have it on all 3 or my tangs :( anyone have any ideas theres no way to get them out of my tank eather all the fish, to let the pars die in the main tank and cure the fish :( i have a UV that didt prevent :( open for ideas and yeh it is Ich i know for 100%, copper nope not in main tank , droping the salt lvl nope not in main tank , over heat the water nope not in main tank open for anything else ?

[allan]

Dang dude, you said no to all the accepted methods of getting rid of it that I know of.

I'm currently trying the UV path myself, and dosing with "Ich Away" which is supposed to be an all natural cure/preventive thing, but after reading the bottle it seems like it's designed to bolster the fish'es natural ability to fend off ich rather than kill or delete ich itself.

How long have you been running the sterilizer? Reason I ask is if the fish already had the parasite then there wouldn't be a way for the sterilizer to attack those. Then it would simply be to wait until those bugs actually fall off the host and hope that your uv catches them either during the trip down or the the return up to re-host.

Are your fish still eating? Are they having difficulties breathing? I have visible signs of ich on two of my tangs, they still eat and seem to breath well enough. I'm feeding them well and keeping the stress level down (keeping my hands out of the tank) to encourage their natural resistance to the parasite.

I hate to sound callous and I am in no way endorsing this, but if you are unwilling to try any of the methods above then you simply will have to wait. Then after six to eight weeks of no fish in your tank you can again restock.

[Paul28]

Ive added a Powderblue in last month it was probly him but he didt have spots when i got him everything is breathing and eating fine but then you cant win against this inless i find a way to get them out and copper them , and let the main tank sit for about a month or 2 to get the par out :( i realy dont want to lose all my fish ive had some for years . has anyone did the garlic route and build there imune up and the par just die off becuse theres no fish to breed on i know thats far fetched but ?

[recoiljpr]

UV will only treat it if it's at the free floating stage. But see the problem is the free floating stage only lasts for a day at the most. So UV is pretty ineffective against Ich. If you can't quarantine all of your fish and let your tank lie fallow for a while you can really only wait it out as far as I know.

Use garlic with your food (will not kill ich, but will better the chance of your fish eating) and feed your fish fairly heavily. Make sure all of your other params (sal, ph, temp, etc) are as stable as possible. Try to take all of the stressors away you can and wait it out.

IMO, as much of a pain as it sounds, you need to get your fish out into a quarantine tank. Then, treat that QT with copper and let your reef tank lie fallow for at least a month, preferabily longer. In some cases Ich can survive without a host for up to 60+ days.

[Purplebeladona]

CLEANER SHRIMP!!! IMO you should always have natures cure already in place especially when you add powder blue, regal , or purple tangs as they are notorious for breaking out with marine ich as all fish have ich ...it is just a matter of IF they will break out. Garlic guard on your food is also a proven method. You may also want to turn off your lights for an extra 2-3 hours to also lower stress levels in the main tank after adding the powder blue.
Purple

[Paul28]

IMO, as much of a pain as it sounds, you need to get your fish out into a quarantine tank. Then, treat that QT with copper and let your reef tank lie fallow for at least a month, preferabily longer. In some cases Ich can survive without a host for up to 60+ days.

Yeah i figured thats about the only way last time i had Ich was years ago thats what i had to do i thoght maybe over the years there was new metheds :(

[Purplebeladona]

I have never lost a fish to ich yet with the above treatments I mentioned and I have been in this hobby for 15 plus years. Removing fish will just stress them and the rest of the tank way too much!!!
Purple

[roscozman]

I know everyone has their own opinions and treatments on this subject, here is what worked for us:
- Use a UV Sterilizer
- Feed with Garlic and feed twice as often
- Buy cleaner shrimp
- Buy cleaner wrasse

We did all of the above at the same time. If you keep your fish feed and eating then they should be able to fight it. We did try the copper method with a Achilles Tang in a hospital tank. It did good on the first treatment, but didn't make it past an hour on the second treatment.

[Paul28]

CLEANER SHRIMP!!! IMO you should always have natures cure already in place especially when you add powder blue, regal , or purple tangs as they are notorious for breaking out with marine ich as all fish have ich ...it is just a matter of IF they will break out. Garlic guard on your food is also a proven method. You may also want to turn off your lights for an extra 2-3 hours to also lower stress levels in the main tank after adding the powder blue.
Purple

have a fire shrimp and a skunk thay cant eat the par its under the slime coat of the fish thats myth, strees lvls i wish, there tangs water current changes thay strees :( the par has to be added to the tank its not always there the cycle has to have fish to live or it dies , Im going to try the garlic and good feeding for now till i can get a new way keep them comming tho i know this par very well and im trying to beat around and try something new havent done reserch uptodate been many years since reading on the MI

[swiatrek]

I agree with the natural methods, cleaner shrimp or even a cleaner wrasse (if tangs will tolerate him eating the ich off). The garlic will help eat and try that kordon ich attack, helped with my powder blue.

[Paul28]

but wont it keep re comming back ?

[Paul28]

i need to PUMP them full of Garlic whats a good food for the fish with Garlic

[Bill S]

Have you read this:

http://www.maast.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49040

I've always been been of the notion that unstressed fish will recover on their own - and once it's in your display, you are toast - you will have to live with it.

[Bill S]

i need to PUMP them full of Garlic whats a good food for the fish with Garlic

The garlic is used as an appetite enhancer. If they are eating well, there's no need to use garlic.

Cleaners will NOT pick Ich off of a fish. It's a myth. That being said, fish do seem to enjoy being cleaned - and whatever you can do to improve their stress levels will help.

[Paul28]

Sweet link Thx ill read it

[Purplebeladona]

Cleaner shrimp is a generic term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_term) for any swimming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natantia) decapod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapoda) crustacean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crustacean) that cleans other organisms of parasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite). This is a widely-cited example of symbiosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis): a relationship in which both parties benefit. The fish benefit by having parasites removed from them, and the shrimp gain the nutritional value of the parasites. In many coral reefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reef), cleaner shrimp congregate at cleaning stations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaning_station).

Scavenger; cleaner of parasites off fishes.

sources: Wikipedia and Julian Sprung Invertebrates A Quick Reference Guide
Purple

[Bill S]

Cleaner shrimp is a generic term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_term) for any swimming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natantia) decapod (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decapoda) crustacean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crustacean) that cleans other organisms of parasites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasite). This is a widely-cited example of symbiosis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbiosis): a relationship in which both parties benefit. The fish benefit by having parasites removed from them, and the shrimp gain the nutritional value of the parasites. In many coral reefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coral_reef), cleaner shrimp congregate at cleaning stations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleaning_station).

Scavenger; cleaner of parasites off fishes.

sources: Wikipedia and Julian Sprung Invertebrates A Quick Reference Guide
Purple

Please note that I didn't say they won't eat parasites, I said they won't eat Ich.

[Purplebeladona]

"White spot disease" or "Ich", is a primarily cutaneous infection of freshwater and marine fish caused by the protozoan parasite Ichthyophthirius multifilis ...
please research parasites.
Purple

[Bill S]

"White spot disease" or "Ich", is a primarily cutaneous infection of freshwater and marine fish caused by the protozoan parasite Ichthyophthirius multifilis ...
please research parasites.
Purple


Marine ich is not Ichthyophthirius, it's a Cryptocaryon species.

[Pennies2Cents]

Hey Paul,

You can always try antibiotics.IMO (Good For Everyone).. Mixed with the food you give.. Or you can give vitamin C mixed with food as well.

[Purplebeladona]

Cryptocaryon is an obligate parasite, point taken on the Ichthyophthirius as this pertains to freshwater ich however cryptocaryon irritans , which pertains to marine ich IS a parasite. Back to the cleaner shrimp issue??
Purple

[Bill S]

Why don't we just agree to disagree.

Cleaner shrimp do eat parasites on fish. Most sources indicate that they do not remove cryptocaryon, as it buries so deeply into the fish.

Personally, I do recommend cleaner shrimp - and have had them in the past. Unfortunately, my old flame hawk decided he'd rather eat than be clean... I just don't believe they are a cure or even much help, specifically with marine ich.

To each his own - I've seen many, many theories grow and die in the 35+ years in this hobby. Like I said, let's just agree to disagree - and let the OP decide what to do.

[Purplebeladona]

Just because you have been in this hobby for 35 plus years does not mean you have done it right. I will not agree to disagree as I am 100% correct in my advice to the man who asked for it. Take it up with nature if you want to continue to think you know so much, I'm sure the oceans inhabitants will also DISAGREE with you!
Purple

[Purplebeladona]

PS>
In the new addition of Coral Magazine in the interview by Daniel Knop with Joe Yaiullo, the cofounder and curator of the Atlantis Marine World Aquarium, :
Daniel asked if he can talk about some of the problems encountered in his 30 foot wide reef aquarium...in Joe's 1 and a half page answer he states:
"Cryptocaryon infections and the like are always latent, but with water quality, healthy food, cleaner shrimps, and cleaner wrasses they can easily be kept under control."
Purple

[Bill S]

"White spot disease" or "Ich", is a primarily cutaneous infection of freshwater and marine fish caused by the protozoan parasite Ichthyophthirius multifilis ...
please research parasites.
Purple



JI am 100% correct in my advice to the man who asked for it.
Purple

So much for you being 100% right. You were wrong on the basics here - you got the wrong parasite - and it was OBVIOUS that it was wrong to anyone who knows anything about Marine Ich, and yet you posted it anyway.

BTW, I've been wrong many, many times before, and will be wrong many, many times in the future. Anyone who thinks they are 100% right is this hobby is setting himself/herself up - and likely too closed-minded to be giving advice. Treatment of marine ich is still a controversial issue - and it should be recognized as that.

40 posts vs. 4000 posts. I'll let the OP decide.

[RayAllen]

Hey Paul

You and I both know your best bet is to put them in a hospital tank, but I completely understand why you are not. It would be a pain in the rear to catch them in your tank.

Id try everything at the same time. Vitamin C dosing, Cleaner Shrimp, medication or chemical. The key here is not to stress out the tangs more than they already are.

Good Luck

[Bill S]

The key here is not to stress out the tangs more than they already are.

Good Luck

Bingo!

[Purplebeladona]

Its a crying shame that you are relying on the post to just go away. You should be able to have a discussion even a disagreement, and it should be able to stay posted for everyone to see and make up there own mind about each side. As far as right or wrong....I am right. I accidentally posted the wrong name and admitted to that....however, cleaner shrimp will help cure the problem. I am not the only one to stumble upon this great mystery. wink wink. As I stated before, go read the article I sited in the new volume of the Coral Magazine. I guess Joe Yaiullo is wrong too. Maybe you should contact him and let him know.

[Bill S]

PS> "Cryptocaryon infections and the like are always latent, but with water quality, healthy food, cleaner shrimps, and cleaner wrasses they can easily be kept under control."
Purple

And from THAT, you decide that Cleaner Shrimp are THE solution? THE CURE?

He has 4 items in that sentence. Any ONE of them could be responsible for his success, and the other 3 could be doing nothing. Note that he said "under control" not cured. 2 of 4 could be doing something, as could 3 of 4 or 4 of 4. That's SCIENCE (I'm a Molecular Biologist, by the way - went to a tiny little school in Houston to get a PhD - Rice University - just so you know I'm not the idiot you might think I am).

You come on this site and expect everyone to believe that 100% of what you say is right - and that everyone else is wrong. This hobby is NOT an exact, known science. Much of what we thought in the early 1970s was clearly not right, and some of what we believe today will be found patently wrong in the future. Please consider that in some of the things you say, you might be later found out to be wrong. It's a way of life in this hobby.

[Purplebeladona]

I never stated that cleaner shrimp are the ONLY way to go, I simply stated that they help cure the problem. Obviously others believe the same way I do as they have stated that in their reply to Paul's problem. Also, why would Joe Yaiullo put them in the Atlantis World Marine Aquarium if it were a myth that they do indeed clean the fish. And yes he does have other methods to help as well, but he still sees the need to put in cleaner shrimp. I have spoken with Paul and hopefully helped him with his emergency. I hope he can take my advice as well as the other advice from the posts and help his fish get better. As far as you being a molecular biologist....great. Your friends and family should be proud. This however does not have anything to do with the quest at hand. If you had originally state that "in your opinion cleaner shrimp do not work with ich" then none of this would have had to been said. However, I have cited a few sources that help prove my opinion on the matter, and all that has come from your side is your own words. If you are Daniel Knop, Julian Sprung, Bob Fenner or any of the leading advisors in the saltwater community then I would not care about your sources, as I could take your word as is. But you are not, so it would be nice to see the sources to which you are deriving your opinion. This will be my last post on the matter.

Purple

[BigKGlen]

So Bill, how's the wife?

[Bill S]

http://www.cool-smileys.com/images/10.gif (http://www.cool-smileys.com/rotfl-smiley)

[Bill S]

If you are Daniel Knop, Julian Sprung, Bob Fenner or any of the leading advisors in the saltwater community then I would not care about your sources, as I could take your word as is. But you are not, so it would be nice to see the sources to which you are deriving your opinion. This will be my last post on the matter. Purple

From Bob's website: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

For those choosing not to go chase the whole freakin' article down:

"There are no "reef-safe" and effective treatments for crypt. NONE."

His emphasis, not mine. Note in his treatments, he covers several items. Cleaner Shrimp is not one of them. His continued long time belief is that cleaner wrasses should not be collected.

[Ping]

How old is your U.V. bulb, they should be changed every 6 months.

U.V. helps me keep my Powder Blue tang Ich free. Each time I have taken the U.V. offline, the Powder Blue has had an outbreak. When I put the sterilizer back in service the ick problem resolves itself. This had happened about 6 times now.

You would think I would have learned my lesson by now, double check everything...

[allan]

Pete, do you run your UV 24/7?

I recently picked one up and put it in place yesterday morning around four. I have yet to wait till I get home, but yesterday evening the water column itself was remarkably clear. I had intended to run it, after the ich and cyano recession, only on the weekends. Kind of let the water build the nutrients back up.

Oh, and I got the 36Watt Turbo Twist.

[Paul28]

wow this thread went little crazzy :) thx for all the out put guys like i said before i know the way to get rid of it but was hoping there was new ways from years ago to fix the problem seems nothing has changed mutch,, my bulb on my UV i purchased was on 7/10/09 so its still good what the outbreak is comming from is the **** yellow tang and pwder are always chassing each other its gertting better but its stressing the hell out of them ive picked up the feeding alittle more today keeping them fat and lazzy and maybe that will calm them down alittle wish i could catch them but thay laugh at me when i try a trap and removing some of my leathers to try yeh right some are half the size of me :)

[Paul28]

o yeh sorry i cant spell to good or read worth a crap ill be labor for life but o well sorry :)

[Paul28]

Anypet stores in town carry Garlic Guard and have it in stock right now what the hell im trying it all hehe i know it has Vitamin C in it and yeah right now my fish still eat like champs but it cant hurt heres a link http://www.marinedepot.com/Seachem_Garlic_Guard_Garlic_Additives_Supplements-Seachem-SC4811-FIADAG-vi.html

Hoping someone intown has it in stock so i dont half to order online

[msmith619]

SURE FIRE MARINE ICH CURE!
I have found the ultimate cure for ich! Empty the tank, get rid of the fish, dry out and sun bleach the rock, sand and equipment. Poof! The ich is gone! (One alternative method involves nuclear weapons but, they are getting hard to come by now that Sadaam is out of business)

Now, seriously, ich seems to be an ever present problem. There is no cure except to break the cycle by removing the host and leaving the tank without fish long enough for the parasite to die off- weeks to months. New fish may still carry the parasite but be resistant and only fall victim to it under times of stress.

[recoiljpr]

Hoping someone intown has it in stock so i dont half to order online

I'm pretty sure I saw one at Polly's Pets in New Braunfels. You can also try Reefs2U. They are both fairly close.

[Paul28]

SURE FIRE MARINE ICH CURE!
I have found the ultimate cure for ich! Empty the tank, get rid of the fish, dry out and sun bleach the rock, sand and equipment. Poof! The ich is gone! (One alternative method involves nuclear weapons but, they are getting hard to come by now that Sadaam is out of business)


Does that work with Wifes ?

[Pennies2Cents]

Garlic, try Gabe's ! :) He's got it..

[Paul28]

cool ill shoot by there tommorow when i shot by yourhouse :)

[Paul28]

Under this is his home any ideas how to move it :confused:




http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6420/bigme.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/bigme.jpg/)

[allan]

jeez dude, you'd need a engine lift to pull that out... or get one of your kids to hide under it with a bag and when the powder comes in to hide, nab it!

[ballardjr2000]

wow that thing is huge... good luck pulling it out

[ballardjr2000]

Does that work with Wifes ?

worked with mine hehe. jking or am I?

[Bill S]

Under this is his home any ideas how to move it :confused:




http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/6420/bigme.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/bigme.jpg/)

Wow. Looks like the nuclear option to me!

[Ping]

Allan, that is the same unit I have and I run it 24/7. It does not lower nutrients, It raises ORP a bit and lowers pathogens. I know some people run their U.V. on a 12 hour cycle to save on energy costs and lower tank heat.

It is my opinion that a U.V. sterilizer should never be run in series with the display supply line, I do not want the plankton supplied to the display killed.

[Shu]

What does Ich look like. How do you know if you get it?

[allan]

It is my opinion that a U.V. sterilizer should never be run in series with the display supply line, I do not want the plankton supplied to the display killed.

I thought about that as well, only I have the UV hooked only to one line back to the display. the other is still uv free. My reckoning is that I lose half rather than all of the returning bugs.

I am trying to conceptulize and then build a bug trap that I can set in my fuge with a bit of bait over night. Then in the morning I lift it out and pour it into the display. I've done this accidently when I left my hydrometer sitting in the fuge. About five or six of those little shrimp took up residence... or they just couldn't figure out how to get back out. I then dumped it into the display. All the fish came up expecting a meal but none of them touched the bugs themselves.