Your Thoughts?

[JimD]

Thought this was very interesting...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLNj-JxYigM

[Bill S]

Jim,

Interesting - but I think it's still the debate between a dsb and anaerobic denitrification versus a shallow sand bed or no sand bed, and an aerobic system. With a nano, you have the luxury of exporting nitrogen (via nitrates) with a simple water change.

In other words, as a tank becomes smaller, a deep sand bed becomes less and less important. On my daughter's nano, there's no dsb, no skimmer. Just simple filtration. A 5 gallon (60%) water change is easy. On my 215, that's a whole different story!

[JimD]

I just thought the clip was interesting because of the guys theory, he says its a marketing scam to sell more sand.... If you think about it, never know, people have used every sandbed configuration known to man with different levels of success... They all seem to work to some degree, really depends on the individuals knowledge of the chemistry and the willingness to maintain either or...

[Big_Pun]

Jim,

Interesting - but I think it's still the debate between a dsb and anaerobic denitrification versus a shallow sand bed or no sand bed, and an aerobic system. With a nano, you have the luxury of exporting nitrogen (via nitrates) with a simple water change.

In other words, as a tank becomes smaller, a deep sand bed becomes less and less important. On my daughter's nano, there's no dsb, no skimmer. Just simple filtration. A 5 gallon (60%) water change is easy. On my 215, that's a whole different story!

as a owner of many cubes bill is right I do 5 gallons on each tank weekly, and recently tried my hand at sps with good growth and color, I don't test so I guess I'm doin something right, yes i know it's not good not to test

[ballardjr2000]

I am going a relativly shallow sand bed in my 12g nano speaking of which my stand shows up today YEAH.

[cpreefguy]

Pretty interesting. Marketing makes sense. I remember when it was a rule of thumb to have 1-2 pounds of live rock per gallon. Now when I see a tank with that muck rock, I just think it looks really packed full of rock!

[recoiljpr]

I think it just goes to show that reef keeping is part science, part art. No two tanks, no matter how much you try are exactly the same. Whenever you put life into the equation, it has a habit of doing what it wants to do.

As we have seen time and time again, what one person does to make a beautiful tank may do jack squat for someone else. We each have to experiment with our tanks to find that sweet spot that we are all looking towards.

I think a lot of things CPReefguy as you said are a rule of thumb. It's a good place to start from, but you must tweak it from there to be truly successful.

I do agree with the mantra go slow. Doing that stops bad things from happening. It also gives you plenty of time to see what works and what doesn't work. Many times people will try X to cure Y bu it doesn't work. I think a lot of times that is simply because they are not patient enough to let it take time to work.

[roscozman]

I have heard "crushed coral" sand was not good for a sand bed.


Crushed coral is only good for making Aragocrete.

[Big_Pun]

well said recoil, I killed some my stuff and tried many things till I got my groove and now that I'm moving to a bigger tank more learning is on the way, but taking it slow is the best advise

[Bill S]

I've been in the hobby over 35 years. What we used to do many moons ago, is really kind of funny...

In 10 or 15 years, you won't recognize today's processes either.

[Ping]

I don’t think this narrator has much of an understanding of marine aquarium husbandry. The deep sand bed came from us, the hobbyist. The mention of H2S exudes ignorance. Apart from urban legend on catastrophic tank crashes, how many people have died from DSB’s? He must be a member of the DSB Truth movement (Truther). Too many people use the internet as the sole source of information on our hobby. Search the forums and become an expert. The information age (internet) has hurt scholarly research; most internet sites and forums are not primary sources or subject to peer review.

No matter how raw it may feel at the time, I appreciate being peer reviewed by Troy, Jim, Bill, Mihn, and others. I truly miss having Gary P as a MAAST member for his chemistry background and easily understood explanations.

The use of a deep sand bed was not proposed by the supply side of our hobby, but by the demand side. Published writers, Fenner, Sprung, Calfo, Tullock, Shimek, to name a few, advocate a DSB as a possible tool when keeping reef invertebrates. The use of a DSB is part of the evolution of marine aquarium husbandry. In most systems a DSB is impractical and unnecessary, as we now have Pacific Ocean live rock and very efficient protein skimmers to help us keep nitrates and phosphates low. This is not to say a DSB does not have a place in our hobby, I have several. The source of problems with DSB’s, lie in an improper set up, incorrect inhabitants, or a lack of proper maintenance.

I have used many combinations of substrates over the years. I will never use crushed coral again. It is a hazard to sand sifting animals due to its size and texture. Of course a Nano is not a good home for a sand sifter, but the neophyte (Bills term) does not know this. Crushed coral is a detritus trap. It has a low amount of surface area for bacteria growth and will not support the quantities and types of micro life that act as detrivores, decomposers and food for our reef inhabitants. A bare bottom system is a much better way of maintaining water quality when compared to a crushed coral substrate and the bare bottom twist on the Berlin method is in my opinion, an American abomination. Oolitic sand provides for the optimum benthic zone in a closed system and with time, a one inch or less depth bed will become aerobic as the interstitial worms and other life forms proliferate (See pic). #2 sized sand is a good substitute when current will not allow the sand to settle.

The microbenthos and meibenthos living in the sand bed not only are detrivores and decomposers but are also provide a more natural source of food for coral. We now have a better understanding of the nutritional needs of symbiotic corals. Each polyp is a consumer of detritus, zooplankton, and bacterioplankton that are suspended into the water column. To help maintain the sand bed, weekly stirring or sifting of a small portion of the substrate will put excess detritus and a portion of the plankton into suspension in the water column. This will then be consumed by the tank inhabitants or removed by mechanical means. No other coral feeding is necessary and this should prevent the detritus saturation so detrimental to a functioning sand bed.

Comments:

[JimD]

Excellent post Ping, these types of educational and informative discussions are why Im a member of this organization. I too miss the feedback given by GaryP, he was a virtual plethera of chemistry information, almost to the point of excess, lol.... Im in total agreement that its all about knowledge and husbandry, with those, anything is possible.... Im not a proponent of crushed coral as a filtration medea, however, it has its place in the hobby, take for instance a tank soley for the housing of jawfish, they need a more course substrate to build burrows and avoid predation, an oolitic bottom makes it extremely difficult to buttrus the den and usually ends up in collaps and the demise of the animal along with the damage to rockwork structures and possibly broken glass. True, many sanbed inhabitants have difficulty as well with a course substrate but, if its intent is not of a filtration basis, I see no reason why it couldnt be included in certain situations...

[Ping]

Absolutely Jim, there are no absolutes, too a point anyway. Unfortunatly, most of us do not set up a biotope aquarium. We try to mimic a reef with the animals we like at the pet store. Some marine life forms actually prefer "dirtier" water. Tunicates are what come to mind at the moment.

[JimD]

Sure, most any filter type feeder would do better in a more nutrient rich environment, thats why when people strive for zero nitrates but in turn want to keep things like clams and other animals that depend not only on photosynthesis bur nicro organisms in the water such as plankton, remove the food, the animal suffers..

[TexasTodd]

What did happen to Gary?

One who's experimented a lot with different sand depths is Richard. Maybe he'll chime in.

I have a friend in Boise that swears by plenumns (spelling?). I tried one once and I'd say it was more like a sewer and it was a horrible failure. Yet his tank was beautiful and the origination of the Idaho Grape.

I still haven't figured out why some setups work for some and not for others.

I know one thing, I won't ever run a system again without a refugium.

I do think deep sand beds have problems frequently over the long term without any steps to keep them going well.

I don't think you can overskim, but, if you have a really good skimmer you CAN under feed and/or not feed properly with appropriate sized foods for all animals including corals.

But I love hearing all information and theories!

Todd