Old Tank Syndrome

[Troy Valentine]

I set up my 240 reef back in '04, and I am starting to notice an increase in nuisance algae.
However I still have undetectable levels of Nitrates and Phosphates, so the algae seems to be absorbing trace amounts of Nitrates and Phosphates that are undetectable.

Here are the things I have changed.

1. Converted the calurpa fuge to a Xenia fuge, to remove dissolved organic matter
2. Started dosing Vodka 4 days ago. Increase bacteria to aid in the nitrogen cycle
3. loosened up sand bed, remove detritus
4. Run carbon weekly

I am curious to hear what others have done to curb the problem of old tank syndrome...

Thank you

[TexasTodd]

Hey Troy.

Did you do steps 1-4 after seeing more algae?

Todd

[Troy Valentine]

Yes, I started seeing the increase in algae about 3 months ago.

[Ping]

Troy, you had to know I would jump on board. I think the vodka method is a great test for your system. I wonder if the increase in bacteria will use up the excess phosphates accumulated in and on the rock.

The Algae Waterfall Scrubber is still working well for me.

[Troy Valentine]

Pete I was hoping you would chime in,

The algae scrubber will be the next project I take on, I already purchased the lights. Maybe we can make it another 7 am gathering at my house, and build this thing. I'll supply the coffee... Maybe a small meeting to show how you do it??????

Has the amount of algae you've been cleaning off the scrubber increased or has it plateaued?

[JTrott]

What nuisance algaes are you seeing? Is it possible that the nuisances algaes you are seeing are not feeding on nitrates or phosphates?

Jason

[CoryDude]

Troy, have you read an article by J. Sprung about whether old tank syndrome even exists? If not, I'll post the link.

[Troy Valentine]

Good point Jason,

I am starting to believe that the Asparagopsis in my tank is more photosynthetic than
than nutrient dependent. When I put my black light over the aquarium the red color becomes vibrant as if zooxanthellae is present. But the other algaes are slime and turf, which in the past when I have had been able to remove through other sources of nutrient export.

[TexasTodd]

How long ago did you do changes 1-4 and what differences have you noticed?

Todd

[Troy Valentine]

3 months ago I loosened up my sand bed/started removing detritus, and ran carbon on a weekly basis.

1 month ago I switched to a xenia fuge.

1 week ago I started dosing vodka up to 2ml a day

[Neptune@gabesfish]

I think what Jason was saying is that there are some nuisance algaes that are not nutrient dependent, which sounds like what you have. I am sure you have thought about it, and probably adjusted, but how old are the bulbs, and are your light cycles too long perhaps? I know your tank is PACKED but possibly the age of the bulbs has something to do with it? Or maybe it is something that you can do nothing about because they are not nutrient dependant? Oxygen levels? Maybe something in what you are feeding? When did you start preparing your own food? Does that conincide with the algae bloom at all?

Just thoughts.

Gabe

[JimD]

This sounds all to familiar. Your sandbed is right at five years old, have you been doing anything maintenance wise to it like replacing a portion of it every so often? Sounds like the sandbed may have reached the end of its useful lifespan... If this is the case, its going to get much worse before it gets better. I went through this same exact thing two years ago and ended up ditching the sand for bare bottom...

[Troy Valentine]

Gabe,
I purchased the 10k and the 20k SPS bulbs from you 2 to 3 months ago, and the 12k Reeflux bulb is 9 months old. My photo period has alway been the same approx 10 hrs.
If my lights are causing nuisance algae to grow then there must be a problem with the chemistry of the tank to allow this to happen. I have rarely seen lights cause problems only amplify them. Originally I thought this was my problem when I purchased the 10k from you, but I was wrong it just exaggerating it. The algae is back again with the new bulbs. However, it could possibly be a bad ice cap ballast. Hmmm

Jim,
I am trying everything in my power to avoid the inevitable. I have a hard time believing that our sand beds have an expiration date. I'm sure you felt the same way 2 years ago. Do you believe that the sand bed becomes a detritus sponge at some point?

[Neptune@gabesfish]

Gabe,
However, it could possibly be a bad ice cap ballast. Hmmm



I know that it sounds like a newbie questione, but is it possible that the ballast is burning the bulb wrong? What infuences does the ballast have on how the bulb is burning?




Jim,
I am trying everything in my power to avoid the inevitable. I have a hard time believing that our sand beds have an expiration date. I'm sure you felt the same way 2 years ago. Do you believe that the sand bed becomes a detritus sponge at some point?

I am wondering the same thing......

Gabe

[JimD]

I believe that without regular maintenance, ie, partial replacement with new sand and renewing sandbed fauna, the sandbed will eventually reach an end point resulting in its inability to function properly as a bio-filtration mechanism. In nature, the sand is constantly being renewed by strong currents and storms, in our tanks the sand is basicly static, meaning virtually no motion at all. Once the sand becomes saturated, it will begin to release organics back into the water fueling algae growth .... This is my opinion based on experience and observation... Can you get a pic of the most prolific algae youre dealing with now? If its brown stringy snot like gunk, could be the beginnings of a Dino attack.

[Troy Valentine]

That is definitely not a newb question... I have read probably read every article that Sanjay has written, and I cannot answer that question. Perhaps a fellow Maastard can help?
I am running 2 SPS bulbs and 1 Reeflux bulb on 250watt Ice Cap ballasts.

[Troy Valentine]

"In nature, the sand is constantly being renewed by strong currents and storms, in our tanks the sand is basicly static, meaning virtually no motion at all."

Good point Jim,

Do you have the sand soaking in a separate container before you add it to your aquarium, or do you just pour it straight in; sand storm and all?

I will post pictures tonight...

[JimD]

Thats the thing, I never got to the point to where I was able to practice what Im preaching, the tank went septic before I figured it out and it was too late by then. IF, I were to ever incorporate a sandbed again, I would exchange small portions at a time every other month or so right from the start, probably a few cups at a time to minimize stress on the perameters and also keep the sandstorm down.. Few more details in this thread..
http://www.maast.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52372

[Troy Valentine]

Did you have Nassarius snail, and do you thing they eat a significant amount of detritus/decay?

Maybe we should think about keeping a parrot fish. That way we can have fresh sand all the time. That could be the missing link in your aquariums. lol

[Bill S]

Sometimes, "Old Tank Syndrome" can also be "I've let my normal new tank maintenance schedule slide". I'd also run down every system on your tank and check it, clean it, replace it, or give it a tuneup. Old flex tubing can collect a lot of STUFF on the walls, overflows get gunky, skimmers get dirty, pumps slow with gunk, rock rubble becomes rock mud or rock concrete.

I got rid of my sandbed on my tank at Xmas - it's now only in the fuge. In the fuge I have things like chocolate chip stars, big hermits, big snails, lots of nassarius snails, etc - some that aren't exactly reef-safe - but ok in the fuge.

[Troy Valentine]

Sometimes, "Old Tank Syndrome" can also be "I've let my normal new tank maintenance schedule slide".

Touche

I've always taken the hands off approach, and its served me well for 15 years. I always viewed everything as a cyclical change. However, this does seem to be a bit more perminant. I have been siphoning off any detritus I see in the sump, and loosening up the sand bed in the fuge and tank. But, there is a good possibility there is a lot of buildup in the drain hoses because of the way I have them routed. Time to replace them I think....

This is a great brainstorm for me.... Thanks guys

[JimD]

"Did you have Nassarius snail, and do you thing they eat a significant amount of detritus/decay?"

I had some but I really didnt replenish them as they depleted, they did do a good job of eating detritus but detritus in, detritus out. I also had the occasional Fighting conch that would do a good job of mixing the top layer without depleteing micro fauna the way some starfish and gobies do. Looking forward to the pics...

[Muddybluewater]

How old are your bulbs? I know when my bulbs get older I start to see more algea growth. I don't think I believe in the old tank thing mine has been running since '95.

[JimD]

You've been running the same deep sandbed without any maintenance for 14 years with no problems whatsoever?

[ACE]

Troy & Gabe, I had an older Coralvue dimmable ballast on my 75 and I started to have some hair algae growth ( with no measurable PO4 and nitrates were low), and corals dying or not growing right. Anyway, it turns out it was bad and when it finally went completely "kaput" I replaced it. Once I did it all started to correct itself. All I can attribute the problems to at this point was the ballast.

[Troy Valentine]

Welcome Muddybluewater. 2 bulbs are under 3 months old and the other is 9 months.

Here goes with the pics:

[Paul28]

Troy it might be that your sand is to fine and its starting to bond together and no water can flow throught it and killing the life in the bed :(

[Troy Valentine]

Large tank owners,

Do you favor feeding one side over the other? And if you do, is there a difference in algae growth from one side to the other? It seems that the side I feed from has far less algae. This could be due to the movement of nassarius snails during feeding time.

[Paul28]

are you Starting to get hard spots when moving your sand around like clumps ?

[Troy Valentine]

Paul I originally thought that also. So one of the first things I did was mix the sand to make it fluid again. I did find several places where the sand had already solidified.
Tonight I added an additional 15 nassarius snails to keep it fluid.

[Paul28]

did you remove them or just try and break them ? thats dead spots

[Paul28]

whats your oxygen levels try adding a pump or somthign in your sump to bring up oxygen levels alge loves co2 and your shur your Phosphates are that low not even there ? reson thay might not be there is becuse that alge is sucking them out maybe run a phosguard or something to take away the Phosphates before the alge can eat it up that might kill off the alge if it has no food Also if you dont run micro alge in your sump or in your tank rember the rule of thumb some sort of alge is going to take over good or bad alge if you have a full fuge that alge wins if you have no micro alge some alge will win

sorry cant spell for crap :)

[allan]

Hey, if you guys are going to get together for coffee and fish talk let me know know. I have no problem drinking coffee so I can learn from your issues... and the coffee... .hmmm

[Troy Valentine]

did you remove them or just try and break them ? thats dead spots

I just broke them up in the tank. While doing that I gave my sand the old cup and sniff test, and suprisingly I didn't smell any sulphur.

[QUOTE=whats your oxygen levels try adding a pump or somthign in your sump to bring up oxygen levels alge loves co2 and your shur your Phosphates are that low not even there ? reson thay might not be there is becuse that alge is sucking them out maybe run a phosguard or something to take away the Phosphates before the alge can eat it up that might kill off the alge if it has no food [/QUOTE]

I've never checked my oxygen level before. Maybe someone has one I could borrow? According to the Salifert kit my Phosphates are 0. I agree with you that the algae is what is keeping my levels at 0. I ran phosban a little over a year ago, and it caused an algae bloom in my tank worse than the one I have now. At least I found what was causing the algae problems.

[CoryDude]

Old Tank Syndrome is a label that is slapped on a lot of tanks too freely.

Troy, I had similar issues last summer with an unexplained rise in algea and NO3. After reseaching this website and others, I decided it as old tank syndrome and was planning on replacing sand band and all liverock. Long story short, it wasn't and took about $30 to fix the problem.

If you haven't already read it, take a look at this article. Like Bill said, there's a lot to your system to be checked before tearing it down. Best of luck to you.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/10/aafeature

[Paul28]

Great Article Cory :}

[Paul28]

Have you ever yoused phosguard i love the stuff




I've never checked my oxygen level before. Maybe someone has one I could borrow? According to the Salifert kit my Phosphates are 0. I agree with you that the algae is what is keeping my levels at 0. I ran phosban a little over a year ago, and it caused an algae bloom in my tank worse than the one I have now. At least I found what was causing the algae problems.

[Gseclipse02]

Large tank owners,

Do you favor feeding one side over the other? And if you do, is there a difference in algae growth from one side to the other? It seems that the side I feed from has far less algae. This could be due to the movement of nassarius snails during feeding time.


i feed on the right side of my tank (always) and i was having some different not wanted growths on that side ... i talked with john@ reefcleaners.org and bought the different snails and crabs that he recommend to me with in a month my problems were gone for the most part....

i remember when i got some stuff off you it had a few of your growths on it and my fox face ate it all ... maybe try some new fish/snails/crabs ???


lmk if i can be of any help troy hope all gets better

[Troy Valentine]

It is conceivable that a form of life (coral, anemone, alga, sponge, bacteria) could grow in a closed system and produce a compound that prevents the growth of bacteria that break the compound down. However, that effect would be short lived, as another bacteria would soon develop to be able to utilize this compound as food… unless the creature that produced it could change the compound to keep its potency effective, and maintain its presence in the water. The idea that our filter beds can or must evolve with time is possibly a factor in the long term changes we see in reef aquariums. This is aside from the rapid process of biofilm maturation and renewal shown in Spotte (1992). - Julian Sprung

Interesting assumption.... I am going to read more about Spotte.


Thanks for the article Cory

[Jamie]

Hi Troy,

Great to be hearing from you. I'm sorry your struggling with algae right now.

I know you enjoy a hands off approach, and have been successful for quite some time. I was always impressed how you were able to keep the "scales in balance" and avoid this very issue. I tried to let my tank run on it's own, but ultimately ended up having to run a bunch of phospure and do a bunch of water changes for a few weeks and my algae problems corrected themselves...I'm actually in the process of doing this again now. I'm curious as to why phosban would have created a bloom for you though....it's main purpose is to absorb phosphates and silicates. So long as you can limit/eliminate at least one main nutrient to the algae all together...it should die off....hmmm. Maybe try again...I still can't think why a decrease in either of these elements would promote algae growth.

One thing I might recommend is to send a sample of your water to a facility to be tested professionally. I know we all like to test at home...but kits get old...or simply aren't all that reliable to begin with. You can send it to www.aquariumwatertesting.com and do a one time test. which is the most expesive per test, or set up a reference test, or monthly service for better value. They test 14 parameters...one of which may ID a potential problem.

Ahhh, the xenia fuge. I can't think of where you would get xenia from to start a xenia fuge....lol. I have considered this as well. I go through drastic removal attempts to completely erradicate my tank of it...but it always manages to come back. I've read about this style fuge a bit. Every time I pull it from my tank I think of all the filtration I'm losing. Let me know how this works out for you...I may give it a shot.

15 nassarius snails might not be enough for the size of your tank. I'd probably go with a number like 50. I was just talking to Dr Mark and TXMaverickMH about these guys and how it looks like night of the living dead everytime they emerge from the sand during feeding. Looking at the pictures....It looks like most of that algae would be consumed by a diversified CUC.

Also, I had to say...I'm still impressed by that clam....holy smokes it's gotten bigger. Did you have to do anything special to keep up with his calcium demands? Last time I was there, you had your effluent going at a steady stream.

Good luck Troy. We all know how frustrating this can be...sometimes to the point of losing interest in the hobby all together , if only for a while. I'm sure you'll get this licked in no time though. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

R, Jamie

[TexasTodd]

Hey Troy, sorry you're having this issue.

That is a lot of changes in the time period. It's hard to pin down the fix when changing so much.

It's a little hard to tell, but the first 2-3 photos look like bubble algae. Like I said, hard to tell, but BA is a low nutriuent algae. Try some Emerald crabs. That last pic is some nasty looking stuff!

I've had VERY bad affects on corals trying to stir sand beds. I would go Jim's route first just because I've had the crap scared out of me from stirring before.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

" Long story short, it wasn't and took about $30 to fix the problem. "

What was the $30 fix?

Todd

[ErikH]

Troy!
I logged in so I could tell you what I did. I have a 75g/29g Display/Fuge that I have had set up for around three or four years. It has several hundred #s of sand spread throughout. I was skimmerless for over a year. I have a Ca Reactor and Kalk reactor, and 4X48 2x250. My sandbed fell into the "danger zone" of about 2 1/2 inches as the sand became more fine. Cyano appreared. I pulled enough sand out to where I was at 1/2" in the display. The fuge is about 8" deep. I stirred and stirred sand, replacing around 10-15 filtersocks worth of garbage and old buildup. I was amazed. It was nasty, and my water was doo-doo brown. When I was done, it was sparkling. I still noticed cyano. I went to AD and bought boatloads of new sand. I pulled half of the existing sand, and put in half a tank of sand about 6" deep. Cyano started growing there too. I recently broke down and bought a new skimmer (more for the O2 than the skimming) and purchased a bottle of red slime control. I am on day three, and have been dosing for 100g, even though my water volume is only about 60-70g. I have an RBTA, Cowrie, Conch, and all of my snails and fish are A-ok. I am hoping to get more oxygen to the tank and I plan on replacing my flex tube from my overflow and cleaning it all properly. My flex tube is probably NASTY. I recently put in some Aqualine Buschke 10Ks and it was still thriving. The only cartridge that I have yet to replace is my RO membrane. The DI is packed, the carbon filter is new, and the sediment filter is new. PITA.

Troubles are often compounded by other troubles, masking some lesser areas of concern harder to track down. I troubleshoot computers for a living, so this is an expensive adventure for me :) too.

[CoryDude]

" Long story short, it wasn't and took about $30 to fix the problem. "

What was the $30 fix?

Todd

Basically the changes involved a cheap exhaust fan to vent fresh air into my fishroom and a few pvc elbows to redirect flow in the tank.

[Troy Valentine]

Thank you everyone for your input on this issue.

Here are the steps I am going to follow:

1st Check/and Clean all equipment
A. Find any areas of detritus build up in the plumming/ Replace hoses
B. Find a way to trouble shoot my Ice Cap ballast

2nd Sandbed Renewal
A. Siphon out small amounts of sand each water change and replace it with new sand.
B. Loosen up small sections (6"x6") of sand once a week/remove detritus -Ping
C. Purchase more Nassarius Snails/ Keep sand bed as fluid as possible
D. Get sand from members aquriums to keep my sand bed fauna diverse.

3rd Reef Care
A. Siphon out algae off rocks(avoid anarobic spots in algae choked rock)
B. Continue to dose 2ml of Vodka a day(Day 6 and seen positive results)
C. Add Emeral craps for BA removal

4th Filtration
A. Install an algae turf scrubber(Thank you Ping)
B. Continue using carbon for DOM removal
C. Use some sort of Phosphate removal device (Phosban/Phosguard ect)

Thats what I've got right now.

What do you think? Please feel free to add something if you think I left it off.

[Troy Valentine]

Sorry about the Xenia plague Jamie.... You are not alone though, I have given the plague to many members.
Its amazing how Xenia has allowed me to meet probably 100s of wonderful people.

[QUOTE= I'm curious as to why phosban would have created a bloom for you though....it's main purpose is to absorb phosphates and silicates. So long as you can limit/eliminate at least one main nutrient to the algae all together...it should die off....hmmm. Maybe try again...I still can't think why a decrease in either of these elements would promote algae growth.[/QUOTE]

I think the bloom was caused by the amount of CO2 my Calcium reactor was puting in to the tank. I was not dripping effluent I was literally pouring effluent. Approx 2lbs to 3lbs of media a month, and the (Iron)Ferric Oxide was the catalist for the algae explosion. It made the algae I had courser and harder to remove. However now that I dose with a parastaltic pump, and homade 2 part, I will try it again.

[Pennies2Cents]

Hey Troy!

Looks like you got lots of members that have had this similar type of algae. I hope you recover soon... And look forward to seeing your awesome tank again.

Eve

[TexasTodd]

Troy and Erik, I would look in to either a UV reactor or O3 unit.

I prefer O3 as they don't add heat. Ping or someone else may be able to explain more, but basicially there are contaminate is systems that a skimmer can NOT take out unless they've been change by UV or O3.

Unfortunately the really experienced people on RC are gone since that big blow up a few years ago. Guys like Bomber and Boomer. They had pages and pages about the above. And, I can tell you from personal experience it is true.

The UV HAS to be a HO high output model if you go that route but you have to replace bulbs, deal with the heat, and keep them clean. I much prefer the O3 Ozone.

Ozone can kill everything in your system if you're not careful. The safety measure is to run the O3 really low for about 4-6 hours a night on a timer. The amount is: 0.18mg per gallon per hour with a dryer or 0.36mg per gallon per hour without a dryer. IMO dryers are a PITA but prevent a build up of Bromide or Bromine or something I can't remember exactly, but use of good carbon and water changes keeps this in check.

This will help immediately as well as long term. It is one of the best things I've ever put on an aquarium. DO NOT buy one of the hobby ones as they break. You can get a nice, adjustable unit of say 0-300mg/hr on Ebay that will last a LONG time.

They make your water crystal clear and cut down on infections / outbreaks big time.

Todd

[TexasTodd]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ClearWater-Tech-Microzone-300-CD-Ozone-Generator-NEW_W0QQitemZ150121572268QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Gen erators?hash=item22f3f167ac&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

The above looks o.k., not as nice as the one I found on ebay and used on my old system, but likely much better than the RedSea etc.

Todd

[Bill S]

Good thought, Todd.

BTW, I have a Red Sea product - and the first one failed in less than a year. They replaced it free of charge. It's now just sitting, because I don't use a skimmer anymore.

[TexasTodd]

Yeah, I've had THREE of the Red Seas go bad very quickly.

Todd

[Ping]

Jim, I add a small piece of freshly cured live rock to all my sand beds at 6 month intervals as well as exchanging sand from all my sand beds to help maintain bio-diversity.

I agree whole heartedly in keeping a sand bed clean. My question is, why replace the sand? If the interstitial spaces of the bed are not packed with detritus, and the sand is coated with the bio-film, why remove and replace the sand?

I know many successful systems are run by keepers who replace sand on a regular basis, however, I do not know if this is necessary. Those of us who have been around a while also know that there is no “One Way” to keep a successful closed system.

[Ping]

Todd, I find U.V. to be an essential piece of equipment as long as it is not used in line with a supply line. I prefer the plumbing to go into the U.V. from the sump and back into the sump.

U.V. raises the ORP and lowers pathogens. Whenever my U.V. is down for a period of time, my Powder Blue develops Ick. This has happened at least a half a dozen times.
An Ozone Generator is an outstanding devise when used properly. I have seen tanks full of nuisance algae’s clear up in several days with the use of ozone. On one system we conducted a short term experiment, ozone on for a week and off for a week. The nuisance alga’s returned rapidly when the ozone unit was removed.

Troy and I have talked about the positive effects ozone would have on his system, but he is looking for a more natural equipment free approach.

I have taken my skimmer off line and am using an algae waterfall scrubber. I will run this for a year or two and see what happens. At present I am experiencing positive results. The dreaded Asparagasum algae is slowly melting away, the quantity of pods and microscopic sand bed lifeforms are exploding. I also believe that the lack of skimming may also act as a carbon source for increased bacteria production, just as in the Vodka Dosing Method.

If after an extended period of time with the Algae Waterfall Scrubber in place, ULNL (ultra low nutrient levels) are not achieved, e.g. no nuisance algae’s and good SPS colors, I will invest in a high quality ozone system.

[TexasTodd]

Good info Peter, thank you.

I don't think I've ever read something bad about an algae scrubber. I think I remember some big fish hatcheries using them...yes?

Todd

[Ping]

AWS's have been bashed by many of RC, no surprise there.

When Dr Adey first patented the ATS, the very large systems that ran them experienced an accumulation of yellowing compounds in the water. A small amount of carbon eliminates this problem in our smaller systems.

Many water treatment facilities, fish hatcheries, and testing facilities for algae bio fuels use this type of filtering system.

[Ping]

The waterfall system also does not have the problem of excessive salt creep and jammed dump buckets that the ATS system would have.

The theory is very sound. Because of sponsor issues, RC is attempting to keep SantaMonica's (a persons alias) theories quiet.

[ErikH]

Thanks for the info Todd, Bill and Peter. You guys are the bees knees. I was telling Ace that I wanted to build a turf scrubber as well awhile back when his system was running. I will use the skimmer I have to help out my system as of now. I figured there would be an easier method than putting a skimmer back in, but too late for that! :) Could you post some info on how I could build one for my 75? I do not have tons of room, but I should be able to manage. I have been contemplating Ozone for a long while, but after Mike wiped his system out, I did not want anything that could so easily destroy my investment(s). It's funny to me that even overbuilt system(s) can be outdone so easily by something like algae. This thread is why this is my main hobby. You guys are GREAT.

[JimD]

"If the interstitial (in between) spaces of the bed are not packed with detritus"

Ping, I believe this is where the majority of the problem lies. Its of my opinion that this is the case, the portions of the sandbed that are saturated with detritus are unable to function properly. I guess you could always pull a portion of the sand out, thouroughly rinse it and re install it as opposed to using new sand...

[Kristy]

Just want to say what a great thought-provoking read this thread has turned out to be! Keep the ideas coming guys!

By the way, Ping, we have found the same thing about our UV... when we have taken it offline for a few weeks, we consistently end up with some ich on the powder blue tang. Never get it otherwise (with the UV on). Also think the UV might help to keep our water looking crystal clear, just my personal theory. A lot of people think they do no good, or even harm. Guess I need to buy a replacememt bulb for our UV as this one has been on a long while!

[CoryDude]

AWS's have been bashed by many of RC, no surprise there.

When Dr Adey first patented the ATS, the very large systems that ran them experienced an accumulation of yellowing compounds in the water. A small amount of carbon eliminates this problem in our smaller systems.

Many water treatment facilities, fish hatcheries, and testing facilities for algae bio fuels use this type of filtering system.

I remember reading about that this FAMA years back. I'm glad to see you're advocating using a scrubber. I always thought the premise sounded awesome, but the unit's footprint size was always an issue with my setups.

[Jamie]

lol...no need to be sorry about the "plague". You certainly warned me in advance and I accepted the risk. I don't mind them...I just have to trim often.

I think you have a good plan and will have everything back to normal shortly. Outside of the algae growth, are your corals doing well and still growing?

R, Jamie

[kkiel02]

Do you have a thread about the aws? I liked the ats so kinda curious how this works. I don't know if I will incorporate one in the new tank but my next one after that will for sure. I think the only reason people are iffy about the uv is because it kills the good and the bad. I wonder if you left it offline for about a month or the life cycle of ich, if the ich would clear up because of the fish growing resistance or something else that would balance out the ich cycle. I say this as I know that I have it in my tank but as I add new fish they get rid of it within three weeks and it doesn't return.

I guess what trying to say is that I wonder if the uv off longer I believe the ich would go away. But I guess this isn't the only reason you use uv.

Hope I didn't confuse everyone. LOL

[Troy Valentine]

I think you have a good plan and will have everything back to normal shortly. Outside of the algae growth, are your corals doing well and still growing?

R, Jamie


After I took the Calcium Reactor offline, and went to a peristaltic pump, the corals are just going bonkers with new growth. This is the most stable I have ever been able to keep my aquarium, and it is so easy to dose this way. I just set the pump to 70mls and let it dose, and every 2 weeks I refill the reservoirs.

[Troy Valentine]

Troy and I have talked about the positive effects ozone would have on his system, but he is looking for a more natural equipment free approach.

I have taken my skimmer off line and am using an algae waterfall scrubber. I will run this for a year or two and see what happens. At present I am experiencing positive results. The dreaded Asparagasum algae is slowly melting away, the quantity of pods and microscopic sand bed lifeforms are exploding. I also believe that the lack of skimming may also act as a carbon source for increased bacteria production, just as in the Vodka Dosing Method.

If after an extended period of time with the Algae Waterfall Scrubber in place, ULNL (ultra low nutrient levels) are not achieved, e.g. no nuisance algae’s and good SPS colors, I will invest in a high quality ozone system.
This is the same direction I plan on taking my system.

I remember back in the early 90s when ATS were the hottest thing. I never had room to do one, but I was alway intriqued by their effective simplicity. Run water over a screen with a decent amount of light (red light in those days), and presto you remove excess organics, lower nitrates,phoshates, and add a beneficial food source to the tank ecosystem. It almost sounds to good to true. We'll see....

It is not that I am opposed to skimmers or Ozone, but it is so much cooler to look a sheet of multicolored algae, and tell someone, That is what filters my tank... Just like mother natures designed it to do.

[TexasTodd]

Hey Troy, are you using B-Ionic with your dosing pump? Or what?

Thanks,

Todd

[Jamie]

Holy smokes....I just spent hours reading up on Algae Scrubbers. I had never heard of them before this thread. Like you said Troy...it almost seems too good to be true...but considering how inexpensive it is to make one, I think I might put one together tomorrow. I plan on gravity feeding water from one of my returns over a roughed up plastic screen that has a few 2700K CF lights from HomeDepot aimed at it. Clean it once weekly and you're good to go. I can't wait. And best of all, I plan on blowing a fan over it...the evaporation will help reduce tank temperature.

Here's a link to the site I've been reading...I don't think I'm breaking any rules sharing it...

http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/index.php

...some really cool info and pics of DIY designs.

[Ping]

After experimenting with many bulb types, the algae grew the fastest with this bulb for me.


An inexpensive screen that works well is, Latch Hook screen from Hobbie Lobbie.

[Troy Valentine]

Hey Troy, are you using B-Ionic with your dosing pump? Or what?

Thanks,

Todd

That is what I originally started dosing, but at over $60 a month I was forced to find a cheaper alternative. So I switch to a homemade 2 part.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php
Recipe #2 is the one I use. Without my Calcium reactor lowering my PH to 7.8, I am left with a Kalk reactor that keeps the PH at 8.3

[Troy Valentine]

After experimenting with many bulb types, the algae grew the fastest with this bulb for me.


An inexpensive screen that works well is, Latch Hook screen from Hobbie Lobbie.


Pete,

Maybe this weekend we can take a couple of pics of your AWS. To show people how you have it plumbed into your system.

[TexasTodd]

Yes, PICS please!

On the scrubbers, how are your SPS growing and how are the colors? One thing I wonder about is it's generally thought (at least some of the old time gurus) that the ideal nutriuents for SPS is: Where macro will grow but micro will not.

Todd

[ErikH]

I bought the equipment - the screening for my new turf scrubber. I will post pics as I go. It may be next week, but they'll get there!

[ErikH]

Updates Troy?
I mocked up my turf scrubber system and man alive it's gonna be a sight! I am just going to keep updating here, I hope you do to!

The cyano is gone after treating with red slime remover. I think in my case there was an abundance of co2 in my system. I added another skimmer in the interim, but I do not plan on keeping it for very long. After this system is in place, I will throw that skimmer on my 48...

Have you guys contemplated running two screens per PVC pipe? Pros Cons?

[Ping]

Eric, what do you mean by 2 screens. Side by side, or back to back?

[TexasTodd]

Hey Ping,

What size take does that scrubber care for?

When you talk about stirring sand, what percentage of the total bed and how deep? I've stirred before with SPS and had very bad results.

I wonder about the differences in mixed reefs vs stony corals only. Most of my sps systems would not keep zoas palys acans etc. as I tend to run them very clean but the sps are happy. This also makes me wonder about mixed reefs as, at least what I've seen diving and on TV I can't remember seeing coralmorphians living in the same area as sps. Yes?

It's nice to see a few really good threads going on MAAST!

Thanks,

Todd

[ErikH]

Peter, I folded the plastic in half. I don't really trust the water falling that far, so my rig is built to fit inside of my 29g. There are five tubes which have screen doubled over and crammed into the slits I cut in the PVC with my Rotozip. I have 4 clamp on lamps with CFLs in them for lighting. I roughed the plastic up with some 60 grit, seems to burr it up well.

How long do I have to wait before I can put this in? I cemented the backbone of elbows and 45s leaving the capped pipes unglued so I can easily take it apart for cleaning, but I want to install it already!!! I capped all 5 pipes and am running a mag7 with 3' of return tube. I am hoping to get sufficient flow across the screens....


I'll take some pics...

[ErikH]

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x315/erikharrison/Fish/ATS/UpsideDown.jpg
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x315/erikharrison/Fish/ATS/MockUp.jpg
http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x315/erikharrison/Fish/ATS/DSC_0034.jpg

[ErikH]

I'll post more pics once it is in and secured.

[Ping]

Todd, my current system has 6 tanks sharing a common sump totaling over 400g of total tank sizes, and all have an aragonite sand substrate.

I have gotten back to stirring the top inch of a 6 x 6 inch area once a week, I had drifted away from doing this on a regular basis, but Jim D's comment on sand bed porosity reminded me of this procedure. Maybe stir a 4 x 4 inch area and possibly in a Nano, a 2 x 2 inch area stirred w/ a chopstick. Why do you think you had bad results?

Mixed reefs, an excellent point I am going to have to think about. Our corals are not only from different zones, but also from different Sea's

With SPS only systems, I would think it is easier to keep the water and substrate clean because SPS corals generally do not exude as much mucous, while the chemistry and lighting for SPS systems make them more difficult.

http://www.solcomhouse.com/coralreef.htm

[Ping]

Eric, how are you going to light this?

Are the slits wide enough for the water to travel down the plastic canvas. I use only one sheet and it works well for me. If the slit is too narrow, it will clog quicker. On mine the slits are as thick as an 80 tooth metal carbide blade. I need to hog mine out a few mm's for even better flow.

What is holding the canvas in place. I had some MAASTards over the house a few weeks ago and some one (Sorry, I cant remember who this was to give credit) recommended using shower curtain rod rings. a much better idea compared to zip ties. Easy to place, remove, and cheap. With the rings the screens themselves can be removed. This may be an easier way to clean the screens.

I would also plumb the emergency overflow tube down into the water column.

I really like the thinking outside the box design.

[Ping]

I would think 24 hours of dry time would suffice. The mag 7 may need to be gated/valved down.

[ErikH]

Well too late it is already in and going. It had 5 hours of dry time under a fast fan. Everything looks great in the tank, and everything seems to be flowing just fine. I will be keeping an eye on it over the next few days, hopefully it all works as well as it is so far. The flow is nice and easy over the plastic, if this works well, it will be worth every cent of the 10 bucks in plumbing it took to make. I may incorporate some ceramic tiles (floor tiles turned upside down) underneath one or two of the "flow bars" to see what growth I get on it. I am uploading a video now to post here in a second.

EDIT: OH lighting is by 4 CFLS crammed over the screens.

[ErikH]

http://maast.org/forums/showthread.php?p=696696#post696696

[TexasTodd]

Hey Ping, thanks. I was out for a couple of days. That is impressive for 400g!

I've lost sps before after stirring a sand bed, but it was much more than you're doing for percentage.

As far as a Xenia fuge Troy, why can't you have calurpa and xenia in the same fuge? I had this in one system kind of by mistake but it worked well was was easy to harvest both the algae and xenia.

When I've kept sps by low feeding and lower skimming to keep nutrients low the bed hasn't had many issues. But when using a bed, and heavy feeding with heavy skimming I've had a lot of build up in the bed. My best growth came with a BB tank, heavy complex feeding and heavy nutrient removal. It also had the best coloring. But it's hard to pin down what's "best" as it was also the most complicated system!

My current little 50g only has 2 small fish and a BIG clam with a few sps. I feed it very lightly and it's easy to take care of.....but, my growth is slow. I'm also not dosing much that is a factor on the growth. It has a shallow sand bed in the tank and a DSB if the ref. Zoas, palys, and Acans have died off in this setup with low feeding but the sps are very healthy and well colored considering the lighting.

Todd