Cycling New Tank

[blane1983]

First off thanks for everyone's help so far. Ive asked a few questions and people are quick to respond. Thanks
Now for my next question. I have had my tank up and running for about a week now. I have tested the water twice with the following results:
8/10/09 Ammonia 0, Nitrite 1, Nitrate 4, Ph 8.0, Salinity 1.024, Temp 78
8/13/09 Ammonia 0, Nitrite 1, Nitrate 4, Ph 8.3, Salinity 1.025, Temp 80

When will the ammonia spike happen? I am really confused on the water parameters ( I know what the levels should be) but I want to understand the process and what causes these levels. I am wanting to take my time to make sure I fully understand it all prior to purchasing any fish or corals. I just need some guidance, any will help. Thanks for your time

[Gseclipse02]

what kind of lights?

[blane1983]

they are the factory ones on the biocube 29 gallon. 2 CFL's (36w 10,000k and 36w actinic). I am not planning on upgrading the lights until later. I have 50lbs live rock and 40lbs live sand in tank now

[dmweise]

You can help the tank cycle by tossing a table shrimp in there. Once it starts to decay it will kick off the cycling. The nitrate you have is most likely a result of die off from the rocks.

[recoiljpr]

Were all of your rocks base (Ie dry and dead) or were any of your rocks live? Also, when you say live sand is it that stuff you buy in the bag, or was it from another tank?

As DM said, throw a dead shrimp in there and that will kick off your cycle full swing. You will see ammonia spike and as it stars to decline, nitrite will spike and as nitrite starts to decline, your nitrate will then start to spike. Once that happens, your tank will have finally started maturing.

I strongly reccomend finding people who live around you and see if you can get a cup or so of their sand, the more the merrier. Also, most LFS will sell you a lb of sand from their tanks pretty cheaply. I'd try to get as many as you can. That will ensure your sandbed is nice and seeded with a lof of life.

The sand you get in the bag is very questionable as to what it contains other then some bacteria.

[blane1983]

Ok I am getting a better understanding now. My sand is from lfs (texas tropicals), the rocks were once in an established tank but were out of water for 2 weeks (my fault). Before I put the rocks in my tank I put them in a tub with a ph and ran that for a week with daily water changes. Then I put them in my tank. I do water changes on the tank every two days. I also put a small rock in the from an established tank ( i crushed it up and sprinkled it on my rocks) What are your opinions on all of this?

[Bill S]

Were all of your rocks base (Ie dry and dead) or were any of your rocks live? Also, when you say live sand is it that stuff you buy in the bag, or was it from another tank?

As DM said, throw a dead shrimp in there and that will kick off your cycle full swing. You will see ammonia spike and as it stars to decline, nitrite will spike and as nitrite starts to decline, your nitrate will then start to spike. Once that happens, your tank will have finally started maturing.

I strongly reccomend finding people who live around you and see if you can get a cup or so of their sand, the more the merrier. Also, most LFS will sell you a lb of sand from their tanks pretty cheaply. I'd try to get as many as you can. That will ensure your sandbed is nice and seeded with a lof of life.

The sand you get in the bag is very questionable as to what it contains other then some bacteria.

Good advice. Got a laugh out of what apears on the surfact to be an oxymoronic statement: "finally started maturing".

Just remember Rule #1: "BAD things happen to those that are not patient in this hobby". Rule#2: "Only money can cure Rule #1".

[recoiljpr]

Ok I am getting a better understanding now. My sand is from lfs (texas tropicals), the rocks were once in an established tank but were out of water for 2 weeks (my fault). Before I put the rocks in my tank I put them in a tub with a ph and ran that for a week with daily water changes. Then I put them in my tank. I do water changes on the tank every two days. I also put a small rock in the from an established tank ( i crushed it up and sprinkled it on my rocks) What are your opinions on all of this?

IMO at 2 weeks, those are dead rocks. There would still be decaying matter on it, but very little if anything would have survived. Bacteria int he core may have (depends if it was in the blazing sun, etc). But it's safer to consider it dead.

Your water changes every 2 days are a little much IMO (unless its a small amount). I would stick to 10% change once a week for now untill you see the ammonia start to spike high. Then, do a 30% water change and continue monitoring. If it's still high, do another 30% 2 days later. Since you don't have fish, etc in there I would try to keep some of the ammonia in there so your bacteria can really start to flourish.

Crushing the LR and putting on your base rock is a good idea for seeding as the benefitial bacteria will begin colonizing the base rock.

[blane1983]

Ok makes me feel better to know I'm getting this right. I will slow the water change and continue to monitor. One more thing, how long does the "cycle" normally take if I add a dead shrimp? And was adding the dead rock a mistake? Thanks once again for all of your help it is greatly appreciated.

[Big_Pun]

your good just gotta wait, you can get some sand from me, now that you know where i live, i only do 3-5 gallons a week in water changes, maybe a dirty sponge from my filter those always have lots of goodies in them

[blane1983]

ok great chris. thanks for all your help

[allan]

If you're interested I could give you a pound or two of live rock rubble from my fuge.

[RICKY81]

Ok I am getting a better understanding now. My sand is from lfs (texas tropicals), the rocks were once in an established tank but were out of water for 2 weeks (my fault). Before I put the rocks in my tank I put them in a tub with a ph and ran that for a week with daily water changes. Then I put them in my tank. I do water changes on the tank every two days. I also put a small rock in the from an established tank ( i crushed it up and sprinkled it on my rocks) What are your opinions on all of this?

ok ok.... if i am understanding this correctly ur tank is fairly new and u are trying to cycle the whole nitrogen cycle, but what i don't understand is why you are doing water changes so early in the process... to my understanding, first throw in a shrimp or two like mentioned earlier, let it cycle, then after the shrimp decays, then ur ammonia should start spiking, and will eventually start your cycle, these could take anywhere from 4-6 weeks normally, but could take a little longer.....

i don't think u need to be doing any water changes at this time, it would be ok if ur tank was already established with fish and coral in it and u are adding Live Rock to the tank, then doing water changes would prevent and spike in ur water levels, but if there is absolutely nothing in it, just let it cycle, and make sure that u have a good filter and a protein skimmer to filter all that junk out.

if u need more information u can try to google Nitrogen Cycle for saltwater fish.

[dmweise]

If you toss in a dead shrimp it will take a week or two to cycle. If you don't then it will take a bit longer. If you live in Austin you are welcome to swing by for a cup of sand from my tank.

[blane1983]

the reason im doing water changes is due to the fact that I used rock that was out of water for two weeks. I figured there would be a lot of decaying matter because of this and so I assumed water changes would help cure the rock. Am I wrong in thinking like this?

[dmweise]

Nope, you're thinking properly. I wouldn't do the water changes though. If anything the decaying matter will help cycle the water.

[blane1983]

olk i will put 1 table shrimp and leave it alone for a while. Ill keep this updated (I'm sure I'll have more questions) Thanks

[Aqua-Dome]

Blane, unless you already have, please do not put table shrimp in your tank. Your tank is cycled. LIVE ROCK OR LIVE SAND instantly cycles a tank, as evidenced by your zero ammonia and nitrite. Anytime you add a fish the tank takes a short time to accomodate the new load, that's why adding slowly is important. This is no different for your tank than it is a six month old tank. Don't waste your time by RE-cycling your tank with a decaying ball of dead animal. Continuing your current water change schedule is a good safeguard IN CASE OF a spike, which is VERY UNLIKELY unless you add 10 fish at once. Add ONE fish, make sure it does fine for a week, keep testing parameters, and go from there...

[recoiljpr]

Blane, unless you already have, please do not put table shrimp in your tank. Your tank is cycled. LIVE ROCK OR LIVE SAND instantly cycles a tank, as evidenced by your zero ammonia and nitrite. Anytime you add a fish the tank takes a short time to accomodate the new load, that's why adding slowly is important. This is no different for your tank than it is a six month old tank. Don't waste your time by RE-cycling your tank with a decaying ball of dead animal. Continuing your current water change schedule is a good safeguard IN CASE OF a spike, which is VERY UNLIKELY unless you add 10 fish at once. Add ONE fish, make sure it does fine for a week, keep testing parameters, and go from there...


I respectfully disagree.

I think he's showing no ammonia because there isn't enough life dying off to cause a large cycle. Without enough of a decaying biomass, the tank will sit in the status it's in. With just the decaying bacteria to go, the bioload is so small, it's cycled to handle the biomass it's at now. You add a fish and there will be no more then enough bacteria to handle it. As we are finding out, sand plays a small part, the huge ammonia processing comes from live rock. Considering the live rock was "dead" the bacteria have to repopulate.

Nitrifying bacteria are only a part of the cycle, how can a tank be considered cycled without going through the diatoms, green algae, etc? That shows a maturing tank because the organisms are reaching a state balance. Without that being reached, adding life will throw the tank for a whirl.

I'm always up for learning more, so if you have any research that helps support your view, please feel free to link it here, i'd love to read it. I am not saying the above statement sarcastically either, if it's out there i'd like to read it. The vast majority of literature out there (combined with the experiences of most people on this board and others) show that it takes a long while to cycle a tank. There are products out there that claim to help speed up a cycle, and that's partially true. But that only is with the ntirifiying bacteria. It does nothing for the other life, etc in the tank (algaes, pods, etc).

[Big_Pun]

from my expierence i think starting a new there always goin to be alot of cycling everytime you add new stuff, i setup a 8g bio cube for my sis i was able to get sand and live rock all cured for a yr or more transfered it straight to the tank let it sit a month then added 1 fish and some cleaning crew and that started another cycle got lots of algae for a couple weeks and then finally after 2 weeks that ended. so as bill said be patient and take it slow. your on the right track and there is no exact formula to cycle, just let it happen and be ready for stuff to happen.

[Bill S]

I respectfully disagree.

I think he's showing no ammonia because there isn't enough life dying off to cause a large cycle. Without enough of a decaying biomass, the tank will sit in the status it's in. With just the decaying bacteria to go, the bioload is so small, it's cycled to handle the biomass it's at now. You add a fish and there will be no more then enough bacteria to handle it. As we are finding out, sand plays a small part, the huge ammonia processing comes from live rock. Considering the live rock was "dead" the bacteria have to repopulate.

Nitrifying bacteria are only a part of the cycle, how can a tank be considered cycled without going through the diatoms, green algae, etc? That shows a maturing tank because the organisms are reaching a state balance. Without that being reached, adding life will throw the tank for a whirl.

I'm always up for learning more, so if you have any research that helps support your view, please feel free to link it here, i'd love to read it. I am not saying the above statement sarcastically either, if it's out there i'd like to read it. The vast majority of literature out there (combined with the experiences of most people on this board and others) show that it takes a long while to cycle a tank. There are products out there that claim to help speed up a cycle, and that's partially true. But that only is with the ntirifiying bacteria. It does nothing for the other life, etc in the tank (algaes, pods, etc).

As do I. PLEASE wait for your tank to properly cycle. With quite of bit of risk, it's POSSIBLE to shortcut the process - but you will likely lose some or all of your fish. Just review the posts in the Emergency Forum, and you'll see.

[Aqua-Dome]

Everyone is entitled to disagree. My research comes from 30+ years of experience. The fact is that biological cycling is what determines when you can add inhabitants, not algae or diatom production. Everytime you add animals to a closed system you will increase ammonia production, the reason you go slow is to keep the ammomia peaks very small so that the beneficial bacteria have time to catch up each time with the increase in bioload. This is independent with any other thing going on in the tank. It is these biological aspects that actually allow closed systems to work. Blane, you should follow advice that you feel is sound and fits comfortably with your plans, most of them will get you to the same stage at some point, some will just prolong your ability to add fish.

[Bill S]

Everyone is entitled to disagree. My research comes from 30+ years of experience.

Yes, that is the reason why it might be OK for you to do this. However, please understand that we are GENERALLY dealing with neophytes here. Just like we don't recommend "expert only" fish and corals to those new to the hobby, we instead recommend the methodology most likely to produce a positive result.

In over 35 years of keeping SWF, the long-term cycling method has proven to be a winner. It produces a system capable of handling a dead fish, without crashing a tank. That's the aim.

[recoiljpr]

Everyone is entitled to disagree.

Of course we do, that's what makes life interesting! I was choosing my words carefully because I do love to learn and find other viewpoints, even if I do happen to disagree with them. So please understand i'm not trying to pick a fight, etc I do enjoy discussion.



The fact is that biological cycling is what determines when you can add inhabitants, not algae or diatom production.

There are countless different #'s of microscopic life that live on our tanks. Diatoms, algae are but one part of it (just like nitrifiying bacteria are just one part). But, they are good pointers in a cycle to show systemic maturity IMO. Since diatoms and algae are higher life forms then bacteria, that usually tells me the bacterial load on the system is in healthy check. Since we cant see the bacteria, the diatoms and algae give us good visual indicators of the health of the system.



Everytime you add animals to a closed system you will increase ammonia production, the reason you go slow is to keep the ammomia peaks very small so that the beneficial bacteria have time to catch up each time with the increase in bioload.

Agreed. Thats why I am supporting adding shrimp. That will get the bacteria ready so that when the first fish is introduced, it's already populated in large enough numbers to not spike the system. That way you don't stress the fish out with high ammonia.



Blane, you should follow advice that you feel is sound and fits comfortably with your plans, most of them will get you to the same stage at some point, some will just prolong your ability to add fish.

My only suggestion is Marine fishkeeping is part art, part science. You have 30+ years of experience to fall back on. People like Blane are just starting out. They don't have a feel for their tanks yet. It's not as easy for someone new to shoot from the hip on a system. Even people with loads of experience also get into binds from time to time.

While i've only had 3 different SW tanks, i've been studying marine environments since the mid 90's. I've also assisted research for the effects of saliinity on brown shrimp in the Laguna Madre, and i've taken my share of biochem, etc (shudder). Even with that under my belt, I have messed up quite a few times, and I will mess up even more. That's why I love learning from everyone, those with 2 years experience, to those with 50 years. Two people can do the same things to two systems and get totally different outcomes. Anything anyone says can only ever be a guide, since you the reefkeeper are the one actually doing it.

That being said, the slow road is the safest road in this hobby. It stops people fromhaving Ammonia, nitrite problems that could have been avoided by going slow.

[BigKGlen]

Slowly!

[blane1983]

ok new update. I checked water parameters again tonight and they came back as follows: Ph 8.0, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, alkalinity 4.5, temp 81, salinity 1.023. I added a table shrimp tonight to try and get this cycle started. Its been 10 days with no ammonia spike at all. Im just trying to be as safe as possible so that when I do add fish and corals I am confident they will survive.