unable to post in for sale forum?

[jake]

Trying to post a thread and getting a message that I do not have access?? Any reason why or what do I have to do to be able to post again??
Thanks in advance

[subsailor]

**** To Post in the for sale forums Web Members must have at least 150 posts, Charter members are allowed to post regardless of post count****

[JoshOdphi]

150?...dang i thot it was 50?...guess i must've read wrong...

[subsailor]

http://www.maast.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38191

[ismvel]

Is this changing with the recent poll that was taken regarding letting web members post in that forum at all?

[subsailor]

not at this time. The BOD is reviewing it.

[jake]

Thanks for clearing that up for me, I was unaware of that change.

[offroadodge]

thats crazy

[JimD]

And they need to be infomational posts, not just filler. This isnt ebay or craigslist.

[justahobby]

I'm curious how many other marine clubs have given exclusive selling rights to paid members?

[subsailor]

I am curious why any other marine club should matter. Are we trying to emulate someone?

[justahobby]

And they need to be infomational posts, not just filler. This isnt ebay or craigslist.


I am curious why any other marine club should matter. Are we trying to emulate someone?

Are we trying so hard NOT to emulate someone? It's funny you word it that way when our forum shares strong resemblances AND bonds to many other Marine forums' layouts. Are our server running on empty and unable to maintain the extra posts?

[subsailor]

Its not about extra posts. I am simply saying we do not need to be like someone else just to belong. MAAST should be about several thing.

1. To encourage the growth of the marine aquarium hobby in South Texas.
2. To educate and inform members and the public about care, keeping and propagation of marine fish and invertebrates.
3. To prevent abuse to marine animals in general, and to conserve the marine environment by promoting intelligent, planned reef management systems.
4. To promote higher standards of health and care provided by local commercial outlets.
5. To organize workshops, seminars and discussions related to all aspects of the hobby.
6. To raise or generate funds and create financial resources to meet the goals.
7. To coordinate with and support similar societies devoted to like-minded interests.

I am not saying I agree or disagree with that vote. However nothing has been restricted yet so that should tell you something. If you wan't a voice in the direction MAAST goes become a charter member. I will state however that I come here for Info, For freinds, for help and occasionally to buy or sell something. I do not come here to look at craigslist. I can got to craigslist if I wanted to do this. IMO (and my opinion does count because I am a paying voting charter member) The 150 post count was necessary to keep someone from signing up and selling some random stuff the same day they signed up. I trust the BOD to do the right thing in furthering MAAST. Once again I speak for myself, Not for the entire club. My veiws are probably not shared with everyone but that does not change my views.

[justahobby]

This forum is not an absolute and lacks reason in being treated as such.Slapping a charge on a prosperous aspect of our forum is tyranny. Tyranny with the absence of representation is distasteful, and Money should not define our forum. I am under the notion that all outcomes are being weighed and encourage BOD’s to continue doing so. Do options exist that include volunteer work or being proven assets to the community? I have offered my help many times to members and never once did I have to remind myself of #1 or #7 in our mission statement which by the way make no mention of paying dues. To be web restricted because of an unpaid due is not appealing. Understand we aren’t doing ourselves a favor when a seller can seek out other options, but a person with interest in a joining a club will follow routes with the least amount of resistance which circumvents elite memberships entitled by payments.

[subsailor]

This forum is not an absolute and lacks reason in being treated as such. Tyranny with the absence of representation is distasteful, and Money should not define our forum. I am under the notion that all outcomes are being weighed and encourage BOD’s to continue doing so. Do options exist that include volunteer work or being proven assets to the community? I have offered my help many times to members and to be web restricted because of an unpaid due is not appealing. Understand we aren’t doing ourselves a favor when a seller can seek out other options, but a person with interest in a joining a club will follow routes with the least amount of resistance which circumvents elite memberships entitled by payments.

You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

[justahobby]

Precisely :)

You are entitled to your opinion as am I.

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

There was a poll several years ago that allowed the Charter Members to vote on the access of the Web Members to all forums. The Charter Members voted to allow the Web Members to be able to post in the For Sale forum with limited access. This would add an incentive for the Web Members to become a Charter Member.
It was decided later, that a 50 productive/constructive post count would be implemented. Unfortunately, they were those who registered on MAAST for the intent of nothing else but to sell their livestock/equipment and would meet the requirements of the 50 post count within hours and never contributing to the site.. . Thus, the BOD, recently decided and voted to increase the post count to 150, and never contributing to the site.. (I believe I found this in the April Meeting Minutes.) As stated earlier, the intent of MAAST is not to become a classified ad, it is here for the Membership as the "Purposes" are stated above.
Recently there was another vote in the Charter Member concerning the "For Sale" forum, due to the total number of votes did not meet the 1/5 of the Charter Membership, the vote does not reflect a change in the current bylaws, and I am sure the BOD will work hard to create a solution that will benefit the Members.
MAAST has implemented several programs that have shown success from other Clubs, such as the Pay it Forward Program and the Library. Maybe emulating was not the correct word choice.
What is great about MAAST is there are Members both Web and Charter who actively participates and cares about the growth of the organization. Diversity of opinions, as long as they remain objective stimulates the growth and betterment of MAAST.

[justahobby]

Thank you Cheri for stepping in and shedding light to recent activities concerning our by-laws. Are these minutes publicly accessible?
As mentioned, everyone benefits from being able to buy "used" products, sell in a forum where we have a large buyers market. How many times have charter members sold entire systems, frags, and equipment to noobs??..... newbies that don't have a post count yet or an established system aren't able to offer knowledge yet. But we help them get establish because we love to and eventually they pass on their knowledge, experiences, and help out wherever possible. To slap a price tag on any part of this forum is to take our entire community for granted.

[subsailor]

To slap a price tag on any part of this forum is to take our entire community for granted.

And to take for granted that a website and forum such as this take nothing monetary in order to operate is absurd. The same as any other organization, this organization requires moneys for overhead.
Don't think of charter membership as a price tag on a forum. Think of it as a donation or an investment. A donation to keep up and running an organization that you enjoy. Yes, there are incentives to becoming a charter member, without them no one would become a charter member and there would be no overhead money and MAAST would cease to exist as you know it.

[subsailor]

Maybe some of the BOD that are reading this thread right now can chime in?

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

Thank you Cheri for stepping in and shedding light to recent activities concerning our by-laws. Are these minutes publicly accessible?
Thanks Justin, the minutes are in the BOD Minutes forum, directly above this forum.

As mentioned, everyone benefits from being able to buy "used" products, sell in a forum where we have a large buyers market. How many times have charter members sold entire systems, frags, and equipment to noobs??..... newbies that don't have a post count yet or an established system aren't able to offer knowledge yet. But we help them get establish because we love to and eventually they pass on their knowledge, experiences, and help out wherever possible. To slap a price tag on any part of this forum is to take our entire community for granted.
I agree to an extent, and they can receive the knowledge from reading threads and posting questions. The "new" Web members are still allowed to purchase, that has not been taken away, they must purchase via pms.
Another incentive, (and please don't think I am trying to drive becoming a Charter Member down your throat,) is being able to vote/participate in the changes of MAAST. A Web Member does not have this privilege.
My personal opinion is that each Member is valued, but one can not expect reap the benefits of a Charter Member, if they have not paid their dues. There must be incentives for becoming a Charter Member.

[edshas2]

I just tried to post something in the for sale section and just realized the post are now at 150 post, you say you do this to try to weed out people who only sign up to sell something, I believe 150 post is a bit excessive and why dont you put a time limit as in if youve been a member for more than a certain amount of time (2-3 months), reach a certain post number, or pay charter dues, as for me ive been registered on this site for more that a year maybe two and only sell stuff to make room in my tank or similar reasons. Not to make money. I have sold stuff here before but for the reason that i dont have 150 post i cant anymore, I think is ridiculous.

[subsailor]

Any BOD want to speak up?

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

I just tried to post something in the for sale section and just realized the post are now at 150 post, you say you do this to try to weed out people who only sign up to sell something, I believe 150 post is a bit excessive and why dont you put a time limit as in if youve been a member for more than a certain amount of time (2-3 months), reach a certain post number, or pay charter dues, as for me ive been registered on this site for more that a year maybe two and only sell stuff to make room in my tank or similar reasons. Not to make money. I have sold stuff here before but for the reason that i dont have 150 post i cant anymore, I think is ridiculous.

I am not a BOD, so I will not answer as such, I would think that since you have been a Member since 2007, you may have been grandfathered. That would be addressed with an Admin. The post count was increased due to the reason as stated earlier, people were registering, and within hours having 50 posts, and 51 would be in the For Sale forum.
The time limit sounds like a good idea, would give a chance for the Member to become familiar with the hobby/site and to other Members...... something for the BOD to consider.

[justahobby]

Cheri, I was under the impression bylaws were changed or adjusted by BOD's. Does this mean Charter Members rule on changes or adjustments?
Another incentive, (and please don't think I am trying to drive becoming a Charter Member down your throat,) is being able to vote/participate in the changes of MAAST.
The same as any other organization, this organization requires moneys for overhead.
Yes, there are incentives to becoming a charter member, without them no one would become a charter member and there would be no overhead money and MAAST would cease to exist as you know it.

Incentives are rewards given out for productivity or involvement. Forcing dues to post in the Buy/ Sell forum would be a disincentive or deterrent since web members wouldn't need to give anything of themselves besides their wallet. The idea of deterring anyone from such a great hobby/ community without provocation seems useless. I fully understand their is a cost to everything. If money is the issue, I also understand there are endless way to achieve an equilibrium without restricting access. I'm willing to bet plenty of people are willing to assist in fundraisers and charity work. I have offered my services to organized events in the past but was overlook. Instead, I have set an example of helping others regardless of social status by showing web members are here to help move an aquarium, hold a tube, or offer surplus supplies to ANYONE in need.

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

Sending PM Justahobby...

[justahobby]

I also like the time limit idea :thumbs_up: But would it end up being another "well, they started posting in the for sale threads as soon as they were able to. Let's bump the minimum up another month"

Point is it seems to be focused on the wrong group of people.Flush out the exploiters without regard for the whole...cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Most new people who join and still new to the hobby as well. They are learning which products are better, finding better deals on here, and also asking lots of questions. We shouldn't decide to black ball these people before they have a chance to decide on a membership.

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

I also like the time limit idea :thumbs_up: But would it end up being another "well, they started posting in the for sale threads as soon as they were able to. Let's bump the minimum up another month"

We shouldn't decide to black ball these people before they have a chance to decide on a membership.


Justn, I don't believe this is the intention, and I hope is not the perception that MAAST is giving. There has to be rules and the rules must be consistent for everyone.
This will be my last post in this matter, because I also feel as though a BOD Member needs to respond and answer these questions. more thoroughly since they are the ones who govern the site. I see that several has been on today, and will send a pm for someone to respond.
Thanks for the great ideas/suggestions and keep them coming.

[edshas2]

Have another question let say somebody new just found this site, this person got into the hobby and didnt like it for some reason, wants to sell equipment livestock they have, i would think this would be beneficial to maast members as well as to the seller, also if people where selling continuosly or for profit it would be pretty easy to detect. What im getting to is some people just want to sell the stuff or livestock they dont need or want anymore, What is wrong about this, i think not only will it offer more variety for members to choose from but maast members would be first to get these deals instead of craigslist or other sites, And like i said before im pretty sure it would be pretty easy to spot people who are only hear to make a profit.

[justahobby]

Replied

Sending PM Justahobby...

[justahobby]

Justin, I don't believe this is the intention, and I hope is not the perception that MAAST is giving

I don't want it to be portrayed either, which is why I am making these points. It's a shame when someone exploits a good thing. And I want to voice the risks associated with fixing this problem. I am trying not to come off too strongly but make a very precise and clear point with some alternatives. I also would enjoy reiterating all the pros and cons with and hearing answers to questions from any and all Board Members.

[cpreefguy]

Hey guys, maybe I can help here.
At first, we had no limitations as to who could sell. We would get people signing up to sell a few items and never post again. We would also get unknown/ un-reputable people posting items for sale, and then never replying to interested members.
We then decided to put a rule requiring 50 posts in order to sell. Unfortunately, it became a problem because new members that wanted to sell something were hitting the 50 post mark in 1 or 2 days with posts like "Cool" and "looks good", etc...
This required constant policing by our moderators and staff.
We then decided to make it a 150 post minimum. Unfortunately a few spoiled it for the bunch. We are currently looking into the logistics (software wise) on making it so it will be "x number of months, or 150 posts" in order to post in the for sale.

As for the charter vote on web members selling, the rules will remain the same since we failed to get enough members to vote as per the by-laws.

I hope I covered everything, if not please ask and I will do my best to answer any questions on this matter.

[subsailor]

Hey guys, maybe I can help here.
At first, we had no limitations as to who could sell. We would get people signing up to sell a few items and never post again. We would also get unknown/ un-reputable people posting items for sale, and then never replying to interested members.
We then decided to put a rule requiring 50 posts in order to sell. Unfortunately, it became a problem because new members that wanted to sell something were hitting the 50 post mark in 1 or 2 days with posts like "Cool" and "looks good", etc...
This required constant policing by our moderators and staff.
We then decided to make it a 150 post minimum. Unfortunately a few spoiled it for the bunch. We are currently looking into the logistics (software wise) on making it so it will be "x number of months, or 150 posts" in order to post in the for sale.

As for the charter vote on web members selling, the rules will remain the same since we failed to get enough members to vote as per the by-laws.

I hope I covered everything, if not please ask and I will do my best to answer any questions on this matter.

Thanks Sean!

[cpreefguy]

Sean :)

[edshas2]

So as it stands now only charter member are allowed to sell anything?

[subsailor]

Sean :)
I knew that duh!

[subsailor]

So as it stands now only charter member are allowed to sell anything?

No any member with over 150 posts may sell.

[cpreefguy]

Have another question let say somebody new just found this site, this person got into the hobby and didnt like it for some reason, wants to sell equipment livestock they have, i would think this would be beneficial to maast members as well as to the seller, also if people where selling continuosly or for profit it would be pretty easy to detect. What im getting to is some people just want to sell the stuff or livestock they dont need or want anymore, What is wrong about this, i think not only will it offer more variety for members to choose from but maast members would be first to get these deals instead of craigslist or other sites, And like i said before im pretty sure it would be pretty easy to spot people who are only hear to make a profit.
This was the premise for the first decision from the vote a few years ago. I agree with your assessment, but we did get some rule breakers and the rules needed to be amended. It can be easy to spot some people only looking to sell for a profit, but it is also too subjective to moderate this way, and we need consistent and clear rules by which to govern.

[MRSBIGBIRD123]

So as it stands now only charter member are allowed to sell anything?


No, as stated by Sean, the motion did not carry due to the amount of Charter Members who voted was not enough to reach the 1/5 requirement of the total Charter Membership.

[cpreefguy]

So as it stands now only charter member are allowed to sell anything?
Subsailor is correct, any charter member may sell, as well as any web member with 150 or more posts.

[JTrott]

Hey guys, maybe I can help here.
At first, we had no limitations as to who could sell. We would get people signing up to sell a few items and never post again. We would also get unknown/ un-reputable people posting items for sale, and then never replying to interested members.
We then decided to put a rule requiring 50 posts in order to sell. Unfortunately, it became a problem because new members that wanted to sell something were hitting the 50 post mark in 1 or 2 days with posts like "Cool" and "looks good", etc...
This required constant policing by our moderators and staff.
We then decided to make it a 150 post minimum. Unfortunately a few spoiled it for the bunch. We are currently looking into the logistics (software wise) on making it so it will be "x number of months, or 150 posts" in order to post in the for sale.

As for the charter vote on web members selling, the rules will remain the same since we failed to get enough members to vote as per the by-laws.

I hope I covered everything, if not please ask and I will do my best to answer any questions on this matter.

I think we had this topic arise a couple of weeks ago, and it was locked and deleted. Why is this same conversation happening again? Everyone was involed in the last topic, that covered the same topic, and it was deleted. Why is this thread allowed to continue. Alot of good points were made in the previous thread. Can that thread be revived please? I think that some of the people on this thread will see that the same thing they are saying has already been covered. Maybe save the BOD some time. NEVERMIND......just remembered that NONE of the BOD responded to that one either........WEIRD?????????????? Got kinda quiet around here a couple of weeks ago.......did all the BOD go on vacation at the same time, because they sure were absent from here.......KINDA LIKE NOW!!!!!!!!!

I find it kinda funny that the Charter Members wanna sell stuff, but do not want to vote on selling stuff. Kinda funny.

[txav8r]

It was started again in the charter forum. Then there was a vote in the charter forum. The BOD was involved.

[cpreefguy]

I also like the time limit idea :thumbs_up: But would it end up being another "well, they started posting in the for sale threads as soon as they were able to. Let's bump the minimum up another month"

Point is it seems to be focused on the wrong group of people.Flush out the exploiters without regard for the whole...cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Most new people who join and still new to the hobby as well. They are learning which products are better, finding better deals on here, and also asking lots of questions. We shouldn't decide to black ball these people before they have a chance to decide on a membership.

Our intention is always to further MAAST for the greater good. It is by no means a perfect system, and we are sometimes limited by software and the man power needed to keep up with some issues. Keep in mind that we have great software, a great admin, and a great staff.
As such, we come upon new issues all the time and try to work out the best solution possible for everyone and MAASt as a whole.

[cpreefguy]

I think we had this topic arise a couple of weeks ago, and it was locked and deleted. Why is this same conversation happening again? Everyone was involed in the last topic, that covered the same topic, and it was deleted. Why is this thread allowed to continue. Alot of good points were made in the previous thread. Can that thread be revived please? I think that some of the people on this thread will see that the same thing they are saying has already been covered. Maybe save the BOD some time. NEVERMIND......just remembered that NONE of the BOD responded to that one either........WEIRD?????????????? Got kinda quiet around here a couple of weeks ago.......did all the BOD go on vacation at the same time, because they sure were absent from here.......KINDA LIKE NOW!!!!!!!!!

I find it kinda funny that the Charter Members wanna sell stuff, but do not want to vote on selling stuff. Kinda funny.
I can't speak for everyone, but I was unable to get on for a few days when all of that was happening. We are like anyone else, this is a volunteer position and we all have a lot of other thing going on outside of MAAST. I can speak for everyone when I say we do our best to keep up with everything that is going on, even if it takes us some time to catch up.

I also think it is "funny" in the sense that Charter members are able to vote and make changes, but sometimes do not. I guess it is kind of like voting in an election, some people do, some dont.

[Pennies2Cents]

Our intention is always to further MAAST for the greater good. It is by no means a perfect system, and we are sometimes limited by software and the man power needed to keep up with some issues. Keep in mind that we have great software, a great admin, and a great staff.
As such, we come upon new issues all the time and try to work out the best solution possible for everyone and MAASt as a whole.

Agreed 100%

[edshas2]

"for the greater good" sounds like harry potter there

[JTrott]

It was started again in the charter forum. Then there was a vote in the charter forum. The BOD was involved.

Why are we, as Web Members, not allowed to see this stuff. Are we not members as well? Are we not allowed to post our opinions on stuff? If that is the way that this club is ran, maybe we, as Web Members, should leave. Because if all Web Members paid their dues, then there is no way that anything could be hidden, and then ALL of us would be able to openly express our opinions. God forbid we ALL post our opinion.

[JTrott]

I also think it is "funny" in the sense that Charter members are able to vote and make changes, but sometimes do not. I guess it is kind of like voting in an election, some people do, some dont.

What's funny is that MAAST can't get 20% of the Charter Members to vote. Either Yes, No, or I don't care. Amazing........

I understand that some people vote, some don't, but come on.......20%????????

I bet close to 70% have bought or sold something......

[cpreefguy]

What's funny is that MAAST can't get 20% of the Charter Members to vote. Either Yes, No, or I don't care. Amazing........

I understand that some people vote, some don't, but come on.......20%????????

I bet close to 70% have bought or sold something......
We can ask and post for them to vote all we want (and we do) but we cant force anyone to vote...

[cpreefguy]

Why are we, as Web Members, not allowed to see this stuff. Are we not members as well? Are we not allowed to post our opinions on stuff? If that is the way that this club is ran, maybe we, as Web Members, should leave. Because if all Web Members paid their dues, then there is no way that anything could be hidden, and then ALL of us would be able to openly express our opinions. God forbid we ALL post our opinion.
It is the Charter Forum, sort of a perk, as is voting. So, when there is an issue that needs voting, it has to be in the charter forum, as they are allowed to vote. Of course, everyone is encouraged to voice their opinion, that is how we grow as an organization.

[Hamp]

I wonder why someone selling stuff for whatever reason bothers anyone on here.If someone is just getting into the hobby, they need lots of stuff. Like me, they will want the for sale forums for their use. It really helps out. And if someone just joins to sell a bunch of stuff, he still is offering all his stuff to us. Cool, more stuff. What is the big deal? Now I feel like I need to say 9 more things that I normally wouldnt, and are probably going to be useless, so I can buy a new(used) light; when I have been using the for sale forums for almost 2 years. I guess that I can always PM them, but I have some great stuff to sell as well. I guess that I will just offer it up in Austin. I dont think any web member has made any money in this hobby, why is it such a big deal?

[subsailor]

This issue is getting off post from the start of it. It has been discussed in detail and the bod is currently working on the issue. This thread is now closed.

[aggman]

may i chime in as well...

i think the focus of this thread as with the two previous is basically:

"...why do i have to contribute to the place that helps make my hobby so enjoyable..."

i am unable to comprehend why "we" spend so much money on our tanks, yet balk at the thought of contributing financially to the organization that aids in making our successes possible. is $25 a year really that much money for you to pay?

as for your question why do we have to pay. you already know the answer. overhead. it costs money to keep this site running. period. with approximately 225 charter members, that tallies to $5,625 a year in revenue. that's it. we are stretched pretty thin. and before you ask, most of our sponsors fees/donations are given to the members at events and meetings. i can give an example. as sponsor fees we accept in-kind donations, basically sponsors give us $250 bucks in gift cards. that covers their sponsorship for the year. that can't be used to cover the costs of running the site. so we give them back to the members as door prizes at events. it's that simple.

as for the recent vote, it was to restrict selling to charter members only, but web members were going to be able to access and post in the for sale/trade forums from day one of their memberships. and there were going to be special allowances for members that "were getting out" or "moving large systems", things like that. it wasn't focused on making the club more money, it was focused on getting back to basics and returning the "idea" of maast back to education and less barter.

and if your intention for joing the club truly was to learn and grow as a hobbyist, then theoreticially you could stay a web-member forever and get all the benfits of maast and the rules regarding selling/trading wouldn't matter to you.

~alex