Making waves

[Kristy]

We are interested in making waves happen in our 210g. We've long been aware of the need for / many benefits of increasing flow throughout our tank, but ever since the tank tours, Mike can't get the image of Ace's waves out of his head. We would like to hear from anyone with a wave machine to get advice on how best to accomplish this.

Ace, what equipment do you use to get such great flow in your tank? Just the wave box (+return pump) or do you have other sources of flow also?

We are considering an investment in various products, Seio - Tunze - Vortech. Would one vortech work to create a wave plus the flow we are looking for, or would we need two? Are there other products out there to generate the waves/flow we want?

Anyone with advice?

Thanks,
Mike & Kristy

[CoryDude]

Mike/Kristy

I'm a newbie vortech owner, but I think you'd need at least 2 vortechs to get a decent wave on a tank that size. I could be wrong, but I only get about a 1/2 - 3/4 inch standing wave with 1 vortech on a 90 gallon (4ft long) tank.

I like the tunze boxs, but they were too much of an eyesore for me to go with.

[Kristy]

Thanks Cory!

Vortech mp20 or mp40?

Our tank is L - O - N - G at 7' x 2' x 2' so I was thinking the same thing, but Mike was hoping that one would get it done (wishful thinking?)

[stoneroller]

Hey, try one out to begin with, add more later.

[cpreefguy]

Definitely a MP40w, probably two

[Texreefer]

you will likely need two mp40s

[mikedelgado]

I have a standard 215 6' long tank. 1 vortec made a 1" or less wave when tuned properly. the wave decreased significantly when I turned my return pump back on(sequence barracuda on 2 wavy seas) I added another vortec and the wave returned to about an inch. although the vortecs have lots of cool features like wavemaking ect, in the end I opted for the green mode which is full tilt for maximum flow.

[hobogato]

just one wave box and the mag 18 return on my tank - more than enough. in fact, i have turned the wavebox down a bit.

[Kristy]

Ace - is that a Tunze wavebox?

Mikedelgado - just the two vortechs and the return on your tank to get all that flow? (and again I assume we are talking vortech 40s?) I am sort of leaning toward maxing out the flow myself, but Mike loves the idea of being able to set it intermittently at times to have more options, waves, etc. I guess that's the beauty of the vortech, that it gives all those options.

Thanks for all the input Kevin, Mike, and Sean. When it comes to equipment, I feel like a kindergartner and have many times asked folks to "dumb it down" when they are explaining how things work.

Our main objective is to have lots of good flow, the option of playing with a wave, and not so much unsightly equipment as all the junk we have in there now, only somewhat effective at that.

[Texreefer]

either a wavebox or 2 vortechs will work just fine, the key is to not have the return line disrupt the wave too much. have them enter parallel to the wave and you will get better motion.. two vortech might cost a little more but you have much more versatility if you decide you don't like waves or want to change things up later

[hobogato]

yep - tunze

[Kristy]

have them enter parallel to the wave and you will get better motion..

Having a little trouble visualizing what you are trying to say with this. (Again, I apologize that about my kindergarten comprehension of equipment issues). Can you try again to explain this?

By the way, we have loc-line entering the tank for our return (abouut one third of the way over from the end), splitting it into two directions of flow near the surface of the water. The return flow enters almost parallel to the surface, although angled a bit.

[g-ray]

I am super happy with my vortech I love the options.

[mikedelgado]

of the tanks I have seen Ithink the wavebox does a MUCH better job of rocking the water back and fourth than 2 mp40's .but mp40's have lots features the wavebox doesnt, and doesnt take up much space.

[jc]

Using one mp40w on my 180 will only create the smallest of waves. So I switched to reef crest mode. I think that you absolutely need 2 vortechs in order to get a wave that you want.

[Texreefer]

Having a little trouble visualizing what you are trying to say with this. (Again, I apologize that about my kindergarten comprehension of equipment issues). Can you try again to explain this?

when a wave is created, all the water moves back and forth in one linear direction. if you introduce a return line that is perpendicular to this, it will disrupt the wave and lessen its effect. Return water that is aimed the same direction as the wave is traveling will work to enhance the waves effect. HTH

[Bill S]

Ok, I'll say my piece and then shut up.

If you LIKE the looks of the wave going back and forth, then go for it.

If you think you NEED the back and forth action, I'd suggest that you spend some time on reefs. The flow is almost always unidirectional current. At the very top of the reef, there is some fast/slow/fast/slow effect, but that's about it. A wave has an effect only 1x it's height. In other words, if it's a 5' wave, it only affects the the water down to a 5' depth. That means that most reef life is in a constant current.

[Troutmasters02]

I own a seaswirl attached to the return pump which the flow can be adjusted by a valve. It does not create a rolling "wave" however, it does create a very nice random flow which can be seen in zoas, duncans etc. The coral and fish seem to enjoy it. My wife and I like watching things sway back and forth.

Simple and economical alternative, I wouldn't change it.

[hobogato]

i see your point bill, but dont forget about the detritus that stays suspended because of the back and forth action. in my tank, i used to run 4 seio 2600s and a 1200 gph tunze. when i took them off and put on the wave box, i was amazed (and horrified) at the amount of stuff that was immediately brought up into the water column. now, rather than it settling in and around the liverock in the tank, it stays suspended until it goes down the drain to the dump/fuge where it can be dealt with much easier.

i will say tho, if my tank were any shorter than 8' i would have a hard time looking at it with a wave box - the frequency would be too fast. as it is, the frequency is about 1.2 seconds.

[Kristy]

Thanks for all the input from everyone!

Mike (texreefer) thanks for clarifying that. I totally undersand what you are saying this time. Sounds like we could wiggle around our loc line until we got a complimentary parallel flow that doesn't interrupt the wave too much.

Bill, I am with you in that I am not sure that I would WANT that much rocking in my tank of having the wave or not all the time anyway, certainly do not see it as necessary per se, but I have been looking for ways to get more flow going throughout. As I understand it, the vortechs would be a way to meet that goal and also offer potential waves for Mike to play with if he likes.

Currently (ha! get it? "current"ly) we have FOUR unsightly powerheads, one of which is HUGE and UGLY, so the concept of replacing those with two sleek and tiny vortechs is highly appealing to me (with or without a wave). Mike is taken with the idea of the motor being outside of the water and therefore more protected, as well as the potential for a wave if we want one.

So, that leaves me with two questions:

1. Anyone NOT happy that you bought a vortech? (Dr.Mark, can you remind me why you switched out the 40s for 20s in your tank? I'll try to find that thread...)

2. Anyone know of a (relatively speaking) good deal on the vortech mp40s?

Thanks again to all of you for chiming in!

[wkada]

My new MP40w arrived on the doorstep today. All I can say is wow! It is currently running and I'll be experimenting over the weekend. Will be able to take out 2-3 of the other powerheads. It is very quiet, even running full bore. Don't know if I got a good deal: 419.95 at Reefgeek.com (no tax, free shipping, great customer service). The cheapest I've seen them used is around 350. No regrets so far, but its only been running 2 hrs.

[CoryDude]

Ebay's your best best for finding one under $400.

Either way, I was a little hesitant spending so much on a powerhead. But everyone is right, the flow control options are awesome, and I like the clean look of my tank without multiple powerheads.

[Robb_in_Austin]

There are a few Vortechs up for sale on RC. Might have to search back a few pages to see them all though.

[camaroracer214]

have you looked into a gyre setup? basically it's just water circulating in a circular path. i haven't used one personally, but i've seen a few in action and they do a great job.

as for waves...i'm not a big fan of seeing the fish just pulse back and forth. again, personal preference, but i think it just doesn't look all that good.

another thing you have to think about (and i'm being paranoid) is the volume of water that will be pulsing back and forth, and what it could do on the structural stability of the tank/stand. i've seen some pretty crappy stands in my time (i never owned them thank goodness). there was one in particular that i remember. it was a stand for a 75 gallon tank that put together like a puzzle piece. but the kicker here was that it didn't use ANY screws/nails/glue/tape/whatever to hold it all together. when the tank wasn't on the stand, it just wobbled back and forth. very scary.

but doing some math...a gallon of saltwater weighs like 8 lbs. so, if you have that tank a rocking, you have some serious weight being thrown around. just too nerve racking for me.

but going with what ace said...a wave like action can certainly suspend the detritus. i would suggest that people change their flow patterns in their tanks every once in a while to get the detritus out of the rockwork and into the water column for filtering. even on a wave tank, detritus will find a way to settle somewhere.

[ReefCube]

did you buy anything yet?

[Gseclipse02]

group buy on MP40's

[Kristy]

did you buy anything yet?

Ha! That's funny.... no, that would be a little impulsive for $800+ on powerheads. We like to take our time to deliberate on big purchases, make sure we are serious about it and then look around for good deals. Let me know if you see one because we'd be interested! So far it kind of reminds me of looking at Apple products - all locked in at about the same price.

Might do it soon if we found the right deal. Might take a couple more months and celebrate paying off our vehicles by splurgining on these.

[Kristy]

Thanks once again for all the helpful comments and answers! :)

wkada - Give us a follow up in a week or two and let us know if you are completely happy with your purchase. Have fun!

Robb in Austin and corydude, thanks for the tips. We'll check RC and ebay both, but cannot decide if we want to buy used and pay almost as much, you know? Kind of makes more sense to me to buy new unless we're going to get a GREAT deal.

gseclipse - any savings on a group buy other than the shipping cost? Can probably find these for free or very low shipping from a number of places.

camaroracer214 - thanks for the info about the gyre circulation... I'll read more about it. That sounds like it would satisfy my goals really well, but my husband is really liking the idea of a wave effect. I know what you mean about some of the rickety stands out there, but thankfully we have a really solid one, that was actually one of the main reasons we bought this 210g tank because of the great cabinetry of the stand and hood. (Props to Ace, who made the hood, and to unknown cabinet maker on the stand?)

[ReefCube]

there are many group buys out there on these things and you can even find them used on RC

[Robb_in_Austin]

There are(were?) a few new/unused ones on RC over the last 2-3 days. I scored one for $350 shipped.

[Bill S]

have you looked into a gyre setup? basically it's just water circulating in a circular path. i haven't used one personally, but i've seen a few in action and they do a great job.

This is exactly how mine is set up. Everything runs clockwise from the top. There's nearly 10,000 gph running in a circle.

[Robb_in_Austin]

How is yours setup Bill?

[DSAfanatic]

I have one mp40w on my neo 90 and I have mine on the Reef Crest mode. That way it constantly varies the flow throughout my tank. You would definitely need two vortech mp40w powerheads.

[rz1a]

if youre looking for the back and forth movement the tunze wavebox is the way to go with vortechs to supplement for flow. I've got two in my 75g in reef crest mode on anti-sync and have to say that they are just incredible powerheads.

i got in on a group order almost a year ago and i bought each vortech for 350 shipped brand new

the most recent one had them for 375 shipped brand new

[Bill S]

How is yours setup Bill?

I have 2 1300gph closed loops that have intakes in the middle of the tank - if you look at the tank, each is about 1/3 of the way down the middle. The returns are at the edge of the tank, angled up 45 degrees, parallel with the sides of the tank. There are 2 x 2600gph Seios in Hobogato cages, that push water right along the 2 front edges (tank is in the wall, separating 2 rooms). The return is 1800gph at the end of the tank on the surface, that assists the swirl. The overflow is a calfo at the other end. The entire surface of the tank is replaced about every 3 seconds.

The middle of the tank gets some shear - but it's mostly rock islands.

[Robb_in_Austin]

Kristy, or anyone really,

Just FYI, I got a PM from someone on RC who has 3 Vortech MP40w 2nd gen for sale. Brand new, original packaging/sealed. He is asking $350 + $10 shipping.

Let me know if you want one, and I'll send him a PM with your email.

Robb

[Kristy]

Wow - thanks for the info on a good deal!

I was already pulling out my wallet and then hesitated... It may sound silly, but I think we will just go ahead and spend a little more to go with a reputable dealer and get a guaranteed product. I would hate to learn the hard way if this guy was not legit.

We're going to pass, if anyone else wants to jump on this. Thanks again, Robb

[Robb_in_Austin]

I hear ya. I always have trepidation buying from individuals on line, but I've haven't been burned yet.

[brewercm]

I'm in the middle of debating this same thing right now. On my 58gallon and only being 3' wide I think I'd be better off with the vortech.