"Nitrate builders"

[reddrum]

So I hear all the time people saying don't put bioballs and sponges in the back compartments because they are nitrate builders. The sponges I understand because they can trap food/waste etc. However, if you are not creating nitrates than that means your wastes remain in the form of more toxic ammonia and nitrites and eventually are broken down to nitrate anyways. The nitrates are going to be there eventually, so what does it matter? I would like to hear some peoples input.

[Big_Pun]

i agree with you i have sponges in my first chamber, and i dont have any problems, i thought they held good bacteria, i did fresh water for the past 8 yrs with no problems running sponges, dont think this would be any diff in a reef tank. i just rinse them off every once in a while and switch one out every month( 3 sponges in chamber).

[Bill S]

The issue with sponges and bioballs is what happens after an extended period of time. If you rinse them regularly, they will be much more effective. A sponge filter is more a mechanical filter - or that's how it should be used.

[Texreefer]

The problem is a long term build up of nitrates.. you do still want to remove nitrates.. bioballs are a nitrate haven and you will run into all kinds fo problems long term with them

[Gilbert]

so would replacing the bio-balls with rubble rock take care of the problem?

[hobogato]

not necessarily. the key to nitrate removal by bacteria is low oxygen areas where facultative anaerobic bacteria are forced to strip the oxygen off of nitrate for use in their metabolism. the remaining nitrogen dissolves into the water and then out to the atmosphere as harmless nitrogen gas. no matter what you use, bio-balls or rubble, you have to have some way to export or convert the nitrate.

[Texreefer]

Most systems that don't run a fuge or a deep enough sand bed, don't have the ability to remove enough nitrates through the process that Ace described, which is why over time excess nitrates will build up in a system, especially a system with bioballs that are generally high flow and high oxygen areas. Thus the need for nitrate removal such as skimmers, macro algae etc.. most sponges are taken out periodically and rinsed which helps remove built up nitrates, most people don't take their bio balls out and rinse them. Nor should they if this is a main source of biological filtration. If you choose to stick with bioballs, make sure you siphon the area periodically and employ some other means of effective nitrate removal

[reddrum]

not necessarily. the key to nitrate removal by bacteria is low oxygen areas where facultative anaerobic bacteria are forced to strip the oxygen off of nitrate for use in their metabolism. the remaining nitrogen dissolves into the water and then out to the atmosphere as harmless nitrogen gas. no matter what you use, bio-balls or rubble, you have to have some way to export or convert the nitrate.

That was my point exactly. Who cares if you are using live rock rubble, bio balls, or a wet dry filter the end product is all the same. I think you should focus more on how you are removing nitrates than what is forming them.

It is just kind of a pet peeve I have developed because I always see people using the "nitrate factory" argument.

[reddrum]

The problem is a long term build up of nitrates.. you do still want to remove nitrates.. bioballs are a nitrate haven and you will run into all kinds fo problems long term with them

So to me a "nitrate haven" would be a good thing. This impies that they are efficient at converting ammonia and nitrite to nitrate (which they are indeed). As far as trapping waste I personally would like the wastes to be trapped somewhere because ultimately we are dealing with a closed system, so if the waste is not trapped and removed it will be cycled throughout the tank until it is broken down to our good friend nitrate.

[Agent Jones]

if bio balls are so bad why does every LFS i walk into have them on their setups? and some places i have been do have been running their tanks for 10+ years.

[Texreefer]

if bio balls are so bad why does every LFS i walk into have them on their setups? and some places i have been do have been running their tanks for 10+ years.

For the reasons we just stated above!

[Agent Jones]

For the reasons we just stated above!

I guess im not asking the correct question cause i read all of that and its made no sense...its like reading greek. sorry i was just asking for a normal answer

[Texreefer]

Bioballs are a nitrate factory.. good biological filtration but nitrates build up over time
in fish only systems this is not a huge problem unless excess waste is going into the tank. generally a skimmer and regular maintenance can alleviate problem.
LFS use these systems because they are easy and effective and they generally don't have livestock in these systems long term
in a home system your animals are there for life and especially if it is a reef or mixed reef these built up nitrates can cause problems.
we must remove nitrates from our systems faster than it is created. bioballs being removed is just a faster means to that end, they can be used but better not to
bottom line is for nitrate production, bioballs work too well
if you have the means to remove nitrates faster or more efficiently than they are being produced then bioballs are fine

[Agent Jones]

Bioballs are a nitrate factory.. good biological filtration but nitrates build up over time
in fish only systems this is not a huge problem unless excess waste is going into the tank. generally a skimmer and regular maintenance can alleviate problem.
LFS use these systems because they are easy and effective and they generally don't have livestock in these systems long term
in a home system your animals are there for life and especially if it is a reef or mixed reef these built up nitrates can cause problems.
we must remove nitrates from our systems faster than it is created. bioballs being removed is just a faster means to that end, they can be used but better not to
bottom line is for nitrate production, bioballs work too well
if you have the means to remove nitrates faster or more efficiently than they are being produced then bioballs are fine


THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!! thats all i was asking. everyone was trying to ask. Im getting the tank started this weekend and i didnt know if i should have keeped the bio balls or not. LFS were telling me to keep them but your reply makes sense why they use them..

[aggman]

ok i had this question as well, and mike you did an excellent job helping me to understand it.

so my question now is what is an actual method for removing nitrates from a small system. i have an all in one and i can't control the nitrates. i used rubble because i was told the whole 'bioballs are bad!!!' story. so anyway if i was to keep the rubble and my skimmer, what could i do to effectively reduce nitrates? right now i am stuck at ~40.

~alex

[gjuarez]

Live rock rubble is not effective in reducing nitrates, especially if they are small pieces. Nitrates can only be reduced with anaerobic bacteria, or with macro algae. Anaerobic bacteria will not grow on bio balls or live rock rubble, the rubble would have to be very thick in order for the bacteria to grow very deep inside where there are very low oxygen levels.

Lets talk about bio-balls, their function and why it is that you always find them where you find them. Bio-balls are often used in wet dry sumps, more often than not the drain trickles through them but they are not dirrectly submerged in the water. Why? The reason for that is because they need to be located where there are very high oxygen levels, where aerobic (not anaerobic) bacteria can grow. Bio balls are often used because they have plenty of surface area for this bacteria to grow. Alot of detritus and gunk gets trapped in there and with as much water running through them it gets dissolved back into the system. Bioballs need to be maintained regularly, rinsed in freshly made saltwater so that you dont kill the bacteria.

[Bill S]

Remember at a LFS:

Fish can tolerate a much higher nitrate level than most corals.

They can't sell it if they aren't using it.

LR Rubble and bioball serve a similar function. The best use of them is as bubble traps, in my opinion.

[glennr1978]

ok i had this question as well, and mike you did an excellent job helping me to understand it.

so my question now is what is an actual method for removing nitrates from a small system. i have an all in one and i can't control the nitrates. i used rubble because i was told the whole 'bioballs are bad!!!' story. so anyway if i was to keep the rubble and my skimmer, what could i do to effectively reduce nitrates? right now i am stuck at ~40.

~alex

how much are you feeding? also, are you using any macro?

[mikedelgado]

nitrates, my sps corals worst enemy! After a year long battle I finally figured how to keep them in check.

[reddrum]

I keeps being brought up that bioballs are too fast at producing nitrates...Would you rather ammonia and nitrite hang around longer?

Personally I would rather keep them at zero and deal with the nitrates.

I guess my point with this was maybe would should stress more to newcomers to the saltwater/nano tank deal that waste removal and nitrate control (protein skimmers/macro algae) are more important than what biological filtration you have.

Bottom line is if you have live rock rubble, sponge, bioballs, or whatever else you choose it will slow water flow. Thus, accumulating waste. Additionally, nitrates will be produced. It is your job to remove them since it is very difficult to utilize anaerobic denitrification.

[gjuarez]

[QUOTE=reddrum;668311]I keeps being brought up that bioballs are too fast at producing nitrates...Would you rather ammonia and nitrite hang around longer?[QUOTE]


The way you phrased this is as if you were saying that you need bio-balls to convert amonia and nitrite into nitrate. Bio balls help, however they are not the only way or the best way in my humble opinion. Once again, they provide surface area for the denitrifying bacteria but can be detrimental over the long run if not maintained properly. If you really want to get awesome biological filtration, get at least 1.5 to 2 pounds of live rock in your display and i gurantee you that you wont have an amonia or nitrite problem, at all. If you want to deal with NO3, then get at least a 4" deep sand bed and that should help, of course through a proper maintenance routine. Tough to beat a good skimmer these days, imho the best thing to take care of nutrients.

[Texreefer]

Bring your test kits over and test my system,, I bet you find undetectible nitrates,,, I don't have bio balls... its just a discussion and opinion. if you like them use them.. plus the question was why are they not wanted. not which way is better,, I have some old bioballs somwhere is anyone wants them:bigsmile:

I keeps being brought up that bioballs are too fast at producing nitrates...Would you rather ammonia and nitrite hang around longer?

Personally I would rather keep them at zero and deal with the nitrates.

I guess my point with this was maybe would should stress more to newcomers to the saltwater/nano tank deal that waste removal and nitrate control (protein skimmers/macro algae) are more important than what biological filtration you have.

Bottom line is if you have live rock rubble, sponge, bioballs, or whatever else you choose it will slow water flow. Thus, accumulating waste. Additionally, nitrates will be produced. It is your job to remove them since it is very difficult to utilize anaerobic denitrification.

[reddrum]

Texreefer, I bet you do regular water changes and have good husbandry practices in general. Which is why you don't have nitrates. Not necessarily because you don't have bioballs.

I am kind of coming out of this as a bioball salesman! Don't get me wrong bioballs can become a problem if not used right. However, a smaller amount of bioballs in a high flow area will not collect detritus and will not hurt. If you don't need them then don't use them. I am not advocating throwing stuff in your compartments just because you can.

We have kind of got a little side tracked from where I was originally going with this, all I wanted to say was rather than demonizing bioballs, we should focus on nitrate control more.

Good input and discussion everyone!

[Third Coast Tropical]

hmmm.....ammonia and nitrite toxicity, or nitrate haven???? How about neither....do your maintenence and water changes and there really shouldn't be issues....I think that is reddrums entire point.....I agree, do your maintenence and water changes on whatever filtration device/bedia you choose, and most problems with the nitrogen cycle can be alleviated/reduced......if you use bio balls, siphon out the compartment they sit in from time to time (just keep them wet).......

maitenence....

[hobogato]

i think the problem many people have with bioballs is when they are used in a traditional wet/dry filter where they are out of the water and the tank water trickles over them. this allows them to trap detritus more and makes maintenance more difficult.

[Third Coast Tropical]

there should be some type of mechanical filtration prior to the bioballs to eliminate that issue....foam, ac filter, baffles, etc.....most solids should be removed before ever getting to the bio-balls.....and should be removed via rountine siphoning/maitenence.....
...again, maintenence...its on the aquarist, not the filtration device

[serazol]

So is the whole "bioballs are bad because they are nitrate factories" stigma because people were not putting fine mechanical filtration before water hits the bioballs?

When I first bought my biocube29, I read a lot of people took out their bioballs because they were called "nitrate factories." I never understood that. I thought that would have been a good thing: you WANT that ammonia and nitrite to turn into the less toxic nitrate ASAP.

What you DON'T want is an ammonia factory. That's what it becomes when big detrius particles get into the bioball chamber. There's no clean-up crew (snails, crabs, worms) back there, and it's a pain to siphon that cramped space yourself. I _could_ use filter floss in the first chamber, but they get dirty real quick and I have to throw them out every day.

That's my reason I have the bioballs out: they're more maintenance than they're worth, and not simply "because they are nitrate factories" --which is a good thing, actually.

P.S.: I should note that nitrate will happen sooner or later. The bioballs do not create nitrate out of no-where. It's better to have nitrate lingering than have nitrite lingering in the water. It's up to the aquarist to get rid of the nitrates through water changes or through nitrate eaters (macro algae, mangroves, etc).

[Big_Pun]

so any way to use the bio ball sumps, turn them into a refugium, i dont have that $$$ or maybe plumb a tank to it as a refugium

[danny]

so any way to use the bio ball sumps, turn them into a refugium, i dont have that $$$ or maybe plumb a tank to it as a refugium

I'm in the same boat here sorta......I'm in the market for a much larger sump than what I have. I look through the pictures here of some of the setups people have under their tanks and good lord.....some of it's amazing and I want one!

[serazol]

so any way to use the bio ball sumps, turn them into a refugium, i dont have that $$$ or maybe plumb a tank to it as a refugium

Are you talking about the Oceanic BioCube or an exterior tank? If you're talking about the BioCube, there are plenty of cheap mods out there that changed the bioball area into refugiums.

A compartment is a compartment. In can house the bioballs or it can host anything else like chaeto, cucumbers, algae, etc... You just gotta add the lighting for it if it needs it.