Newbie Question on SUPMS and Refugium

[fishforlife]

(EDIT - I Meant SUMPS) I have kept many very successful fresh water tanks since I was 8. Now, after seeing the beauty of a marine tank....there is no comparison. So, my wife and I are researching reef tanks. I am confused.

A SUMP is a water containment area where one can place protien skimmers, heaters, (add to this list please). That way the water is treated more effeciently and with less noise.

A refugium is a small tank connected to the main tank but allows various life forms to live and filter/clear water away from predation.

Is this correct? What have I missed?

FYI... We plan on having a 120+ gallon tank. Seams a sump is the way to go in our design.

Please comment. Thanks!

[RayAllen]

I can tell you have done some research. You are definately on the right track. With a reef tank it is actually best to have both a Sump and refugium for optimal filtration. This will insure a happy reef which will inturn make you a happy reef owner.

A sump is a additional body of water that allows you to hide unsightly equipment such as heaters, protein skimmers but most importantly it also increases your volume of water which in saltwater the more water volume the more stable. Now when it comes to the refugium these are great to grow algaes and critters such as copepods which will help keep your levels down such as nitrates and phospates and also feed many of your fish.

It is possible to have a sump and fuge in one. Many sumps are devided into chambers which allow many arrangement possiblities. For example you can have a 3 chambered sump such as mine where the tank water flows into chamber 1 where the skimmer and Phosphate reactor skim and filter the water which then flows into Chamber 2 my refugium which then flows into chamber 3 where a pump returns the filtered water into the tank.

A lot of info to swollow but I kept it simple. Id suggest talking to member Hobogato who is our local DIY guy and can build one heck of a Sump/fuge.

Have fun and Welcome!

[Shawnanthony]

A refugium is a small tank connected to the main tank but allows various life forms to live and filter/clear water away from predation.

Is this correct? What have I missed?

A refugium is a section connected to the sump which is like a mini version of your main tank.

Now in your sump u can put live rock,sand,UV Sterilizer...ETC..

[texasfootball21]

As stated above, Hobogoato (Ace), thought I have yet to see his work in person, seems to be an incredibly skilled craftsman, with absolutely stunning work. You can also build your own sump/refugium.

If you decide to build your own, these videos may help you out:
Video One: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxnugJGiT3o
Video Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgNe_OYgoL8

A sump/refugium will have huge benefits such as (just a few, most already stated by RayAllen):
Higher water volume (more stable system),
Lowered Nitrates and Phosphates,
A place to hide ugly equipment without having to see it in your display tank,
Higher populations of beneficial micro organisms,
A place to relocate a harmful specimen in your main tank if a problem occurs without harming the specimen,
And many more benefits I have forgot to mention (Im new as well!).

Good luck and keep asking questions, there are tons of very knowledgeable people on this site who will always be more then happy to help you out. Let me know if you need me to clarify something, and I will try as best I can.

Good luck!

[roscozman]

We started off with a 20gal and thought someone was making fun of us when they mentioned "Sump". It also took me about two weeks to finally pronounce refugium correctly. After upgrading twice we now have a sump and a refugium. Since we live in NW San Antonio, Darth-Tater and Ping were great resources at the beginning.

I really learned a ton when I bought frags from people and went to their house. Seeing their quality work inspired me to ask questions and strive to make my tank look great also. I would suggest visiting members and viewing their set-ups. There is a similar thread posted here:
http://www.maast.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44988

[fishforlife]

WOW Good stuff!

"A place to relocate a harmful specimen in your main tank if a problem occurs without harming the specimen," -- Does this mean you can place a roudy fish/invert into the refugium until it canbe relocated?

What are frags?

My wife andI still have tons of stuff to learn, but it is slowly coming together. I am very handy with most tools and look forward to build most of my own stuff.

At this point we are just making a Wish Fish List and thinking about what things we want in the tank.

It is going to be fun to build the reef slowly.

I live in Universal City. Any wuality salt water shops around?

[Kristy]

Yes, you can put a rowdy fish or invert in the sump to give it a safe place to settle down or just be contained for a while. We've also used it for a fragile fish to keep it from being bothered by tankmates and have seen it used to remove the most comptetitive fish for a brief "time out" while a new fish is getting accustomed to the tank.

One other note about refugiums: There are two main schools of thought about refugiums. Some use a deep sand bed for natural nitrate reduction and others use it as a place to grow macroalgaes. The idea is that you encourage the growth of cerain algaes in your refugium, which helps to prohibit the growth of nuisance algaes in the display tank. Our fuge is split into two compartments and we use half for deep sand bed and half for macro.

All of these little thoughts have huge articles written about them, so it's great to hear that you are reading and researching and planning to take things slow. That will really pay off.

I second the comment about how much you can learn by viewing others' tanks. Nothing quite like seeing a reef in person!

[texasfootball21]

For example: say you buy a fish you thought may be reef safe, but wait! It is eating a colony of your favorite corals, so you net the fish (sometimes easier said then done) and then what? well if you have a sump you can just drop that fish in a safe area of your sump/refugium where he/she can't harm any of your corals.

Another example is, as you said, if you had a fish that was attacking other fish or even inverts in the tank. You can relocate this fish to the sump. The fish (or invert) now cannot cause harm to the other creatures in your tank, and you can keep the fish/invert in the sump/refugium until you decide what you want to do with it.

Frags are basically a fragment of a mother colony of coral. Someone can take a large colony of coral, but a piece off of it, and glue it to a rock, or just leave it alone. They can then grow a whole new colony out of that small piece (frag) or sell off the frag to other people of a fish store. Instead of buying a big expensive colony, you can just buy a frag of the colony and grow your own! When people make these "frags" it is known as "fragging" the coral.

Being handy with tools will be of huge value to you, it will really pay off in this hobby.

Making a Fish Wish List is a good idea, a even better idea is to post your ideas (and your equipment stats) and let the experts on this site point out any problems that may occur with your choices. It is better to find out in advance then to lose an expensive/beautiful fish or invert due to a poor stocking choice.

I've never been to Universal City, so I wouldn't know of any good stores there, but I'm sure someone who lives there will chime in. Any one of our sponsors are great choices of fish stores.

You are defiantly on the right track now, continue to ask questions, you will continue to learn more and more.

Good luck!

[SABOB]

Check out the Sponsors page for good stores in SA.We are fortunate and have a bunch,not necessarily close to you.It's fun to take a Fish Store trip and visit a few at a time.

[jroescher]

Here's a really good place to learn a lot about sump and refugium designs, and the mechanics of how it all works together.

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[marshall.read]

The above posts have given you a very good crash course in reefing. For tons more information, I'd recommend checking out wetwebmedia.com. The sight is managed by Bob Fenner who is an authority on most if not all reef keeping topics. If your tank is going to be a 120+ it will most likely be 6' long, which will be plenty of room for a large custom built sump with a built in refugium, or a refugium and sump seperate. Basically what you want to do in either setup is make sure that the skimmer gets water directly from the tank (meaning not filtered at all before it reaches the skimmer). This will make a large improvement in skimming efficiency. Also, the refugium will be best served by receiving water directly from the tank. So you will need to split your overflow into both of these areas. For myself on the 135 I'm in the process of setting up, I'm doing a seperate refugium, which will be elevated slightly higher than the sump's return, and drill the side of the refugium and have it pour directly into the return. The sump's first chamber will be the skimmer, after which the water pours through the mechanical filter into the return. However you set it up its best not to have the mechanical filter after the refugium as you will filter out all your good stuff (copepods, amphipods, etc). For refugiums I like doing a deep sand bed with a plenum. A plenum is when you raise the rocks up about 1" over the bottom of the tank, leaving a stagnant dead space of water. This greatly assists in denitrification. And on top of the deep sand bed I add macroalgae. This type of setup has always worked very well for me. I know its theres a lot of info to digest, but for some good reading on all this just search wetwebmedia for the keywords of things you want to know more about. Chances are you'll find it there, and of course feel free to ask questions here on maast and you can also send questions to wetwebmedia, they almost always respond in a day. Just make sure you research your question first, they get understandably annoyed at having to answer the same questions over and over again. Good luck getting started and it sounds like you are asking the right questions to be well on your way to an outstanding reef.

[fishforlife]

The neat thing about the hobby is that there is so much to learn....and buy...and do... It seems it never ends which makes it fun.

At this point it seems like TONS of work to maintain a Reef tank, but from what i have heard from experience keepers is that "if you have a good SUMP/refrugium system, proper lighting, ... that the work is more maintaining the tank wiht regular system checks, water changes, ect...

Also, I like the fact that you HAVE to take your time...That way you do not feel so rushed to have the tank completely set up NOW...

I think my best bet is to decided what I want my tank to look like years form now, and make a step by step plan to get it where I want it.

My first step would be to get teh sump/tank/sand/LR.... done and have a FOWLR tank for a while (maybe some easy corals-I have read that som nano speicies are easy to keep and do not require high light outputs) until I get broke into the salt water world...

Thoughts? Right track?

[SABOB]

Sounds like you are understanding.It is often said "Only bad things happen fast" in this hobby.Take your time,read alot and ask questions here or other Saltwater forums before doing things.Before you know it you will be giving some advice ot just asking questions.Good luck.

[Kristy]

until I get broke into the salt water world...

"Get broke" is about right!!! :lauging: Welcome to salt water!

I like your idea about visualizing the dream tank and then working backwards to develop the plan. We started by looking at people's tank of the month entries and choosing which seemed most appleaing, then researching what size tank / lights / filtration, etc. it takes to get that dream tank.

A fish and coral wish list is also a good place to start, because fish will have minimum size tanks and will only work in combination with certain others, etc.

[RayAllen]

sent you a pm

[fishforlife]

Kristy PM Sent

[texasfootball21]

You are defiantly on the right track. The only thing that happens fast in this hobby is disaster.

Good luck.

[topsoil]

In Universal City, try Poly's Pet Shop on Pat Booker rd. I haven't been there in a long time (and only once or twice) so I can't vouch for their quality/knowledge. But it's the only one I know of over there.