refugium mud or just live sand?

[seatrueblue]

Which one would be better? I have to restart my refugium because of the huge die off of amphipods and bristle worms. Most of them died because of lack of oxygen when we disconnected the fuge from the broken 120g display tank. We did put an air stone in there. I guess the air pump wasn't running full blast. Most of the die off was near the air stone. We were using live sand when we first set up our refugium. It worked good but I wonder if refugium mud is better? TIA for any comments :D

[RayAllen]

I honestly do not know anyone who has used the mud. I seem to always see sand, and Ive seen a few of the other members setups.

[seatrueblue]

Hmm maybe I should go with just live sand again..anyone else have an opinion?

[ErikH]

Mud is good for a refugium, as it contains trace elements, but so does salt. IMO, for the price, I would rather wait it out for some good sand from a reefer breaking a tank down. I have 60 lbs of sand in my 29 gallon sumpterfuge thing.

Edit: Oh yeah, sand helps in NNR, which I am not sure if the mud helps this in any way.

[seatrueblue]

NNR? whats that? sorry thats the first time I've seen that abbreviation:p. Yeah we turned our sump into a fuge too. Ooo I would love to get some established sand from a local reefer.

[Kristy]

Natural Nitrate Reduction

[seatrueblue]

Thanks Kristy :)

[Iplantz]

Well in one of my magazines i read that refugium muds help bind phosphates in the water, and the iron in the mud helps promote good algae growth, BUT you should replace half or so of your muds every year to year and a half becausee phosphates can build to dangerous levels in the soil. Personally I would do sand and it has always worked for my. :bigsmile:

[subsailor]

This was pulled off of WWM


As for the use of mud vs. sand in refugia, well like I said there are advantages and disadvantages to both...and each aquarists probably has their own preferrance. And then the situation gets even more murky, pun intended, by the fact there are different types of sand of mud.....so first, before we compare, I think we should identify what the benefits of the mud and sand are seperately. (And I will be doing some cust and paste from the other recent thread on mud in this thread)

Mud substrate in refugia;

Mud Refugia has been arguably popularized and marketed by Leng Sey of Ecosystems (Miracle Mud), though other companies like Kent and Walt Smith have followed with copy-cat products. The "Miracle Mud" brand is probablly still the most popular and the most oolitic, other brands, specifically the kent product seems to be much more coarser (though not along the lines of crushed coral or anything like that). In essence it operates very similar to the standard macro-algae refugia. The mud provides a good base for algae to grow and again like macro-algae based refugia allows the owner to utilize the benefits of photosynthesizing and growing algaes to oxygenate the water and provide a means of nutrient export. In theory (and this is based on what the various companies claim, not a testament by me) mud refugia balances the chemical and mineral needs of the aquarium, making additives such as iodine, iron, (all the fun stuff we put in our reef tanks) unnecessary…no more pH adjustments, nor more activated carbon ect…..it even claims that this eliminates the need for a protein skimmer. Some go even further to say that a protein skimmer is actually detrimental when used in combination because impacts the mud’s (and the refugium’s in genrala) performance by removing to many of the good elements added by the mud as well as harboring the plankton life and microfauna produced within it… What is claimed....not proven....is that the mud is basically, unlike most marine sands which are aragonite based...is much more complete minerally, organically, ect. ....That it is superior to the sand in the fact that microphauna is more prone to populating in it and that plants and various alages will grow more profically...again this is not a testament or endoresement by me, it's simply what it is claimed to do.


Next the Sand;

Well the issue with the sand is that’s it’s really hard to touch on without having diarrhea of the mouth…you could write/there are hundreds and hundreds of papers and text on there use in marine aquaria….but I’m just going to try and touch on the use in marine refugia. No only are there so many types of sand but then there’s the argument of using sand at all in marine aquaria….I’m not going to touch that one, it’s a dead horse really. The basic use of sand in marine aquaria is…well basically the same as the mud. The sand provides a great home for pods and mircrophauna to populate and if you’ll be growing vascular plants or algae that uses fastholds then it will help with that too. Then there’s also natural nitrate reduction with the use of Deep Sand Bed….and for the benfits/uses of that I’ll direct you to this link:

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm)

Comparison;

The biggest comparison and first comparison with these two is usually price, the mud, especially the ecosystems brand costs much more than the sand. If you buy in to all of the proposed benefits claims of the mud….and I don’t completely,…. that whole skimerless idea, especially for average aquarists, just doesn’t sit well with me (see the other thread for that discussion). Anyway, if we were even to venture out and say that the mud does have these benefits to see them, I would surmise that you would need a rather large refugium, something along the lines of 30% the size of the display….of course with any refugia whether it has the mud or not the bigger the better. The refugia where the mud, or even oolitic sand for that matter, would be out of place is a very high flow ‘fuge, a fuge for example built for some species of gracillaria that needs to remain in a constant tumble. I personally actually prefer more coarse media in refugia, not only for the flow rates, but in my anecdotal experience it also seems to have more positive effect on micro-crustacean populations, yes it is a nutrient sink but I don’t mind that occurance in the refugium, it’s certainly better than in the display.

I think it really comes down to a personal choice, and what you feel is “worth it.” How much the added benefits of one vs. the other will affect you/your aquaria…what the targeted animals in the display are… Sand is definitely the economical and common choice though. As far as mixing the sand and mud, well it would have to be oolitic sand or it would defeat the purpose, and if the mud:sand ratio wasn’t higher I’m not sure you would get any of the proposed benefits from that…….what I have seen though is two separate refugiums, one with mud, one with sand.



Eco, which is also one our sponsors, claims NNR with miracle mud

[RayAllen]

Excellent post subsailor

[seatrueblue]

Yeah that was definitely worth reading....thank you so much subsailor. People do say that mud is good for mangroves and thats what I want to grow. I wonder if you can have mangrove with cheatomorpha algae? Would one starve the other?

[LoneStar]

Hopefully Peter (Ping) can chime in here. He did a great demonstration about a year ago at a meeting on refugiums.

[mattymalcolm]

sand has always worked for me.

[dustint21]

I have had sand in all three of my fuge setups! Thought about the mud with the new 90G but i know the sand works so i went the safe route that i know works!

[seatrueblue]

Do you grow mangroves in just regular sand? Can mangroves and cheatomorpha be put together?

[subsailor]

I tryed out some mangroves in Mud, but i didn't see much growth. IMO it is not worth the time unless on a massive scale.

[seatrueblue]

What would you consider a massive scale?

[jc]

I would suggest you keep it simple and stick with the sand.

[subsailor]

IMO most of the systems I have seen utilize them are on the 300 gallons and up with a area dedicated for them

[Ping]

If one can afford it, Miracle Mud (not a knock off brand) in a fuge that is stocked with freshly cured LR ruble and Caulerpa, run on a 24 hour lighting cycle cannot be beat. The recommended tank size to fuge ratios can be found on the Miracle Mud web site.

I cannot afford the miracle mud, so I use and advocate a remote DSB of sugar fine sand topped with a few small pieces of freshly cured LR and some type of fast growing macro algae. The two most common are Caulerpa lit for 24 hours (mandatory) or Cheatomorpha on a 12 hour cycle. Algae lit on a reverse daylight cycle will help stabilize pH.

[Ping]

double post