pH trouble, then more trouble

[DrMark]

My 34 gal was doing so well........until this.
I check chemistry every week and even send a sample to AWT.com monthly to confirm.
All parameters looked good and had been stable with 20% water changes every 10 days.

My last test: 4/17 ph 8.1, SG 1.026, temp 79.7, Ammonia/Nitrate/Nitrate/phosphate all 0, Calcium 450, dKH 8.

Last AWT on 4/7 all fine also.

However, I checked the pH on 4/20 and was 7.6 and confirmed it with same result from my pinpoint monitor as the same. So, like a dummy (all livestock was thriving) I was concerned with the pH and added a little buffer over 24 hours to get it up to 8.0.

Now over last 36 hours things have deteriated. Xenia taking it hardest, candy cane doing best. Almost all polyps closed on other corals, RBTA not as happy as it was. Fish, snails, crabs seem fine.

I have done two 50% water changes. So theretically only 25% of old water left. pH is now 8.1, will retest other parameters again later.

My plan now is to leave things alone and hope for the best, unless some better ideas here. Only factor that changed was adding some buffer slowly as I was nervous with the pH going down to 7.6. Still dont know why. No deaths, skimmer working, circulation unchanged, feeding protocol unchanged, etc.
mark

[ErikH]

Do you dose at all?

[DrMark]

Do you dose at all?

once a week Kent essential elements 4cc, thats all.
mark

[ErikH]

Xenia will always show when your PH is out of whack. Maybe something was on your hands and entered the tank causing the PH to drop??? From the sounds of it, you are pretty diligent, so I would just keep an eye on it. The water changes were the best thing to do in that scenario, as in most. No odd drops in temp that could have caused a swing?

[DrMark]

Xenia will always show when your PH is out of whack. Maybe something was on your hands and entered the tank causing the PH to drop??? From the sounds of it, you are pretty diligent, so I would just keep an eye on it. The water changes were the best thing to do in that scenario, as in most. No odd drops in temp that could have caused a swing?

Temp very stable.
All the corals look pretty bad right now.
Red Sea xenia was doing wondeful, almost too good. In fact everything really thriving, till now.
A set back for sure. Dont like to kill anything.
I have plenty of the xenia in the big tank, but many of the zoos I liked were only in small and are all closed, hopefully not for good. Duncan colony stressed also, but not a goner, I hope.
Very bad and interesting experience.
Guess a contaminant is possible, though cant think of what. Hard to believe a 0.4 pH change would have this drastic a result.......
mark

[tropicana]

Maybe some corals touched? Or a Mushroom contaminated the water with a Shroom war? Corals leach some pretty toxic stuff sometimes... Sounds like to me its some sort of contamination not anything else. The ph could have dropped because the corals started hurting due to the contaminant...

[JimD]

I doubt that the addition of buffer is the main cause of your problem unless you dosed too much at one time. Unexplained phenoms are the norm in this hobby, some pass without any explaination at all. It sounds to me that your system has a great opportunity to recover with water changes and close monitoring of stats. One thing that comes to mind, some commercial grade additives do indeed have shelf lives, may want to check the container for an expiration date. None the less, good luck and keep us informed on its progress.

[DrMark]

I doubt that the addition of buffer is the main cause of your problem unless you dosed too much at one time. Unexplained phenoms are the norm in this hobby, some pass without any explaination at all. It sounds to me that your system has a great opportunity to recover with water changes and close monitoring of stats. One thing that comes to mind, some commercial grade additives do indeed have shelf lives, may want to check the container for an expiration date. None the less, good luck and keep us informed on its progress.

Thanks. Other than the induced pH rise. No other things to explain. Buffer was new, but tossed it after this anyways. You may be right, some times no explanation can be found. Time will tell. Tank was up few months and soing well. Just hate to lose anything. Going out of town a couple of days and will see how things look while gone. My wife is in charge in interim..........she is not happy about that.
Mark

[tony]

I doubt that the addition of buffer is the main cause of your problem unless you dosed too much at one time. Unexplained phenoms are the norm in this hobby, some pass without any explaination at all. It sounds to me that your system has a great opportunity to recover with water changes and close monitoring of stats. One thing that comes to mind, some commercial grade additives do indeed have shelf lives, may want to check the container for an expiration date. None the less, good luck and keep us informed on its progress.


great post and i agree

[reeferRob]

I'm relatively new to salt water myself so for what it's worth. I would also keep an eye on (if you're not already) on the Mg. It may not have a thing to do with the PH problem you're having, but I DO know that it plays a significant role in the interaction between Ca and Alk and PH and the whole cycle. Anyhow maybe one of the guru's will chime in. Just an idea.


Good Luck!


Rob

[apedroza]

What are you using to dose calcium and Alk???

[matt]

I would suggest that you dose a 2 part Ca and Alk solution to get your Ca and Alk in balance, say around 400 PPM Ca and 8-10 dkh of Alk. You can use b-ionic or make an inexpensive solution using baking soda, Calcium chloride, and R.O. water. Here's the recipe:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

Once your levels are stable, you'll find that your ph stays in normal range unless there is a CO2 issue in your room. Ph in saltwater with normal alkalinity is ALWAYS a measure of dissolved CO2. Heavily stocked tanks tend to release CO2 into the water through respiration of the animals, and using kalk (Calcium Hydroxide powder dissolved in R.O. water) as your top off can really help by using dissolved CO2 to produce carbonate ions in the water.

You probably know this, but ph will swing normally in a tank with photosynthesis because that process uses CO2 and releases O2; this raises the ph during the day when the lights are on and drops it at night when the lights are off. This can be as much as 7.8-8.4 during a normal light cycle. So, if you got an unexpectedly low ph reading in the morning, there might be nothing to worry about.

[Bill S]

Dr. Mark, one thing no one has mentioned:

The reason I keep my xenia in my 55 well trimmed, is that they absorb toxins. That's cool, but when they die, they can crash the whole tank, as they then re-release those toxins.

In your shoes, I'd continue doing large water changes - like you are doing. I'd also run a bunch of carbon.

[DrMark]

Dr. Mark, one thing no one has mentioned:

The reason I keep my xenia in my 55 well trimmed, is that they absorb toxins. That's cool, but when they die, they can crash the whole tank, as they then re-release those toxins.

In your shoes, I'd continue doing large water changes - like you are doing. I'd also run a bunch of carbon.

Was out of town couple of days. I had done 2 large water changes prior to leaving.
Prior to leaving I thought things were looking a little better.
Just got back and was hoping to see things better.
Things look bad. Will move what still looks viable to big tank.
Might be right about the xenia, all died. Was not that much of it. But was first to go.
Ca at 460, dKH 10. All other tests fine except now ammonia is 0.35 and Nitrate at 5 (always previously zero), but with the death and decay...........
Really do not want to move the few fish (pair clowns, diamond goby, few blue damsels) into big tank. RBTA looking very stressed, so will try to move it if I can.
Last Mg was 1125.
Very dissappointed by all these events.
Mark

[alton]

Okay might have some good news or something hopeful. I had your problem a couple months ago when I sold a bunch of fish, my nitrates disapeared and with out it my Xenia died and everything else looked bad. GSP closed up, Kenyan trees looked dead or dying misc. polyps closed. The only thing that did not look that bad was my Frogspawn. Two months later everything is back and looks even better. I now have twice as many Kenyan trees as before the GSP and other misc. polyps are open and thriving. My Candy Cane and Brains are doing great. I have a little bit of algae on the sand and one rock but it is clearing up slowly. I do run a phosban reactor. Hope it all works out.

[DrMark]

I just moved all the corals to the sand bed of the big tank (lighting much more intense with the halides vs. T5s). Really didnt like how things were looking. I really believe everything was going to die, could have been wrong.
Hate to put anything stressed or sick in the big tank, but as no isolation tank currently, had no choice. Big tank is a 214gal with 60 gal fuge/sump that has been stable and healthy for long time. I think it could handle it. Even moved the RBTA, but left the fish behind, they dont seem bothered by the mystery crash.

I very much appreciate all the comments. I have been at fish long time, but new to reefs a little over a year. I am a perfectionist and struggle with failure.........
mark

[matt]

Everybody has had a tank crash at some point, don't feel too bad. Bill's suggestion of carbon is a good one. Sometimes things happen in this hobby with very little explanation.

[DrMark]

Dr. Mark, one thing no one has mentioned:

The reason I keep my xenia in my 55 well trimmed, is that they absorb toxins. That's cool, but when they die, they can crash the whole tank, as they then re-release those toxins.

In your shoes, I'd continue doing large water changes - like you are doing. I'd also run a bunch of carbon.

Oh, and I did run carbon on that tank and had replaced it about 6 weeks ago.
mark