anyone dosing vodka?

[rz1a]

anyone on this board dosing vodka in their tanks? every time i read the other threads in turns into a whole pointless thread where everyone ruins it with lame jokes. are there any good articles on it? so far i just found this:

*Revised

"DSB tanks react very sensitively on Vodka supplementation, thus be careful! If you run a DSB without a skimmer, you should add one to your tank.

Vodka should be supplemented daily during the lighting phase.

You can start with 0.1 mL/100 L for the first three days.
Then you increase the vodka volume to 0.2 mL/100 L for day 4-7.
Subsequently to this initial week you increase the vodka dose by 0.5 mL per total tank volume (this is important, do not dose on a per 100L basis, but on the total tank volume!) every week.

So, e.g. for a 500 L tank:

day 1-3: 0.1 * 5 = 0.5 mL
day 4-7: 0.2 * 5 = 1 mL
2. week (day 8-14): 1 mL + 0.5 mL = 1.5 mL
3. week: 1.5 mL + 0.5 mL = 2 mL.

After these 3 weeks you should recognize changes in the nutrient levels (nitrate, phosphate). If the nutrient levels are still unchanged, you should further increase the dose by 0.5 mL per total tank volume.
As soon as you recognize either nitrate or phosphate to start dropping you shouldn't further increase the vodka volume but watch the nutrient levels, even in the first three weeks.

You should log your nutrient measurements and monitor the nutrient levels on a regular basis (every 3 days).

As Heinz said, skimming is important and you will recognize your skimmer to work much more effectively."

[FSU]

Never heard of this before, but what exactly is it supposed to do?

[rz1a]

its to battle nitrates and phosphates? i believe. this is from a forum i read:

"The theory is that a reef tank's limiting nutrient for bacterial growth is carbon.

You dose in a bit of organic (useable) carbon (many forms will likely work equally well) and the bacteria grow faster. While they grow they create biomass (their tiny bodies) which takes up phosphate, nitrate, etc. etc. The bacteria are easily removed by skimming... Less nutrients in the water means less algae growth on glass and in the water column.....clearer water. Some corals will like this, some may not, but you can always feed your fish more if you think the nutrient levels are getting low."

basically (and correct me if im wrong) by feeding the bacteria carbon they grow and eat up nitrates and phosphates, but at the same itll deplete oxygen which why people have to be careful when dosing because it can crash tanks. the bacteria will die and need to be skimmed out

[Joshua]

I did it for a while in my old tank, nutrient level got too low and started losing some prize zoanthids so I had to cut back. My SPS were in fantastic shape the whole time though. I have some bookmarks, but they're not on this computer, will look and see if they're on my work computer in the morning.

[rz1a]

were you testing the nitrates and phosphates with any top quality kits?

[Lightning Whelk]

anyone on this board dosing vodka in their tanks? every time i read the other threads in turns into a whole pointless thread where everyone ruins it with lame jokes. are there any good articles on it? so far i just found this:

.5ml per 100 gallons day 1-3
1ml per 100 gallons day 4-7
1.5ml per 100 gallons day 8-14
Increase dose by 1 ml per week.
Cut dose 1/2 when you see cloudy water or bacteria film in tank.


Looks like a task for the myth busters...:shades:

[rz1a]

vodka and sugar dosing has been around for a long time, its nothing new. id just like to get the correct instructions on how much to dose before i do it.. i also need to get some better testing equipment

[hobogato]

here (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1225324) is a long thread on RC with a link to another that may help you....

[Joshua]

were you testing the nitrates and phosphates with any top quality kits?

Never bothered with them, trates were always undetectable and phos never had a problem bad enough to test for it... in that tank at the current time anyway. I can tell you that the water got noticeably clearer, way clearer, to the point even my camera took better pictures.

[rocketeer]

My tank always looks better after a little vodka... Sorry, that was too easy.

Jack

[Joshua]

My tank always looks better after a little vodka... Sorry, that was too easy.

Jack

"one for the tank, two for me... two for the tank, one two for me... three for the tank, one two three for me... hiccup"

[rz1a]

here (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1225324) is a long thread on RC with a link to another that may help you....

thanks a lot for that link ace, so it seems that the instructions i posted are off, so im going to fix that in case someone sees that. so basically you start off with .1 mL for every 100 liters (26 gallons).

didnt catch what the vodka should be, like if it should 40%

[Joshua]

didnt catch what the vodka should be, like if it should 40%

I got the cheapest clear vodka I could find, the fish didn't complain they are cheap too!

[rz1a]

i really want to try this out on my tank, but i have a 28g tank with a 20g sump that probably has less than 10g in it since i have lr rubble and a skimmer in there, so im not sure if i should go through with it since .1 mL might be at my limit or a little too much

the only other problems ive heard is that the bacteria will consume a lot of oxygen, you need a skimmer which i have, and that soft corals do not do well in a low nutritent environment; which would be perfect because the softies in my tank have taken over and i had to put my SPS corals on a rack

[Joshua]

I think it was 1 ml not .1 ml but don't quote me on that, there should be a link in that RC thread to the German dude's website with all the instructions, that's where the dosage is. If you can spread out the dosage morning/evening it's better than doing once a day. Your SPS will love the low nutrient environment, but your softies and zoas need some nutrients. My clams went ape and grew like mad, more light due to clearer water and lots of bacterial food I would assume. You will need a very good skimmer to skim the bacteria, but any skimmer should suffice for oxygenation of the water as long as you're not ODing and causing a huge bloom that clouds the water. I wish I could remember more to help you out, but this was years ago... I think I used Smirnoff... but in a nano you could go with something more expensive since the dosage is real low. lol... This was done on my 180 bare bottom SPS tank.

[rz1a]

i think ill try .05 mL to just start off with and see what happens

[rz1a]

oh because the german guy was the one who posted that on RC and said to start off with .1 mL for every 100 liters, its in the first post of this thread since i revised it. so for my tank ill try .05 mL for a while and see what happens; better to be safe than sorry i suppose


btw, my skimmer is an octopus nw150 that has a mesh mod and other mods done to it, i think it should be enough

[Joshua]

Yeah you're right, I think it was .1 to start off with... I remember it being very low for such a big tank, think I only got up to 3 CC/day or something like that and thinking I shouldn't have bought such a big bottle of Vodka trying to keep the cost per dose down. lol...

[rz1a]

just wanted to stay that this will be the 2nd day dosing vodka. i'll dose .04 CC once the lights have been on for a while, most likely when i come back from school around 2pm. This is 80% proof that I bought for like 10 dollars. called Rikaloff

*just to let it everyone know, dont try this if youre not going to be testing phosphates or nitrates. It is a very dangerous way to go about things and crash a tank

Yesterday (03/18/08) I dosed .04 CC into my tank and refugium. Today I notice that my shrooms are extended; the only way i can describe it would be when zoanthids try to stretch in order to receive more light.

originally i was going to go for .05 CC but decided to start out lower just in case.

it's a mixed reef so i have shrooms, GSP, a devil'ls hand and SPS. so far everything still looks good-- no drunk fish ;p PE is till good on both the SPS and devil's hand. nothing has closed up or shrank (yet).

[Joshua]

Your PE on the SPS should actually get much better.

[rz1a]

i know on a couple of my monti caps i can see the PE a little bit better. i dont know if its a biased point of view, but i have a brown cap with purple polyps and you can really see the purple. the base of my tricolor's polyps have extended more. other pieces have always had good PE. i just think its weird how the shrooms have tried to extend themselves

i'm not sure how soon you're supposed to notice the differences though. today and tomorrow i'll be dosing .04 CC before i up the dose to .08

[rz1a]

btw, would it be a good idea to leave the window open to allow more oxygen in the room? ive left it open since last night because i've heard that oxygen is depleted and pH will lower

[rz1a]

wow what a freaking day. i just noticed ive got Red Bugs!! im checking out my granulosa and i see these little orange bugs on there. looks like im going to have to treat the tank soon

[Joshua]

I wouldn't leave the window open because it causes too many swings in temp and humidity, not to mention makes you vulnerable to the coral thieves that stake out MAAST to see who's leaving their windows open! :p I never had any problems with oxygen and I way overdosed a few days about 2 weeks in and caused a monster cloudy bacterial bloom, also my kids dumped a full 16 oz glass of milk in the tank and caused a bloom (similar effect to the vodka) and didn't have a problem then either, in fact the corals couldn't seem happier. I had a very light fish bioload though, probably had 6-8 fish, mostly smallish, in my 180 + 75g attached frag tank + whatever was in my sump. Obviously with small tanks things can go south much faster and it's a more fragile system.

[bigmoe21]

:lauging: haha milk? that would get calcium in the tank too right?

[rz1a]

I wouldn't leave the window open because it causes too many swings in temp and humidity, not to mention makes you vulnerable to the coral thieves that stake out MAAST to see who's leaving their windows open! :p I never had any problems with oxygen and I way overdosed a few days about 2 weeks in and caused a monster cloudy bacterial bloom, also my kids dumped a full 16 oz glass of milk in the tank and caused a bloom (similar effect to the vodka) and didn't have a problem then either, in fact the corals couldn't seem happier. I had a very light fish bioload though, probably had 6-8 fish, mostly smallish, in my 180 + 75g attached frag tank + whatever was in my sump. Obviously with small tanks things can go south much faster and it's a more fragile system.

milk? lol thats crazy

i got this link: http://www.dfwmas.org/Forums/viewtopic.php?t=40815&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40&sid=447f9f970ff5cd758c3ef393574a3f5f

for the red bugs :(

[rz1a]

Second dose of vodka of .04 CC was added today (03/19/08)

PE on sps look better, but i may have to stop dosing vodka in order to dose interceptor

[Joshua]

How many Acros do you have? Is it feasible to remove them for dipping + quarantine? The bugs in the tank will die in several weeks absence of acros in the tank.

[rz1a]

well, the thing is i dont have another tank. id rather just treat the whole tank to make sure they die. but i also want to dose the tank because i have pyram snails

i dont have that much. i just have 2 slimers, 1 tricolor, 1 mille, 1 granulosa, several caps, 1 pocillopora, 1 stag


also, im guessing when i dose im going to have to have the refugium connected right? i cant just dose the DT? if so, that would suck; i have a lot of pods in my refugium :\

[rz1a]

a type of green algae has started to form on the sandbed on the left front corner/side. so far its 1 to 2 inches long by a few mm wide

[Joshua]

You wouldn't have to remove the caps and poci, only the Acros. You can disconnect the 'fuge and treat the DT, that way you can put all your hermits and other critters you don't want killed into the 'fuge, just don't hook it back up for 3 weeks to be sure that if there are any red bugs in it that they die of starvation. Another option would be to dip each Acro in SeaChem ReefDip and/or Interceptor daily for a few weeks, with so few acros it's very possible you could get all the red bugs dead that way. Then if it doesn't work you can always treat the whole tank later.

[rz1a]

so red bugs live for only close to a month without acropora? is it possible that they feed on other things if SPS is not found?

[rz1a]

joshua, when did you really notice things change in your sps? i think its still too soon for me to tell if anything is really going on.

did it take you a couple of weeks until you noticed anything?

[rz1a]

added .02 CC more earlier, so its been a total of .06 CC, little bit more than what i was originally going to go with: .05

so it treats 60 liters, roughly 15 gallons


btw, the green algae just went away? ill see if it comes back tomorrow when the main lights come back on. might be cyano

[Joshua]

joshua, when did you really notice things change in your sps? i think its still too soon for me to tell if anything is really going on.

did it take you a couple of weeks until you noticed anything?

I started noticing pretty quick while I was ramping up the dosage and it increased gradually, but didn't see full effects for a couple weeks.

That green stuff is probably cyano, as your other bacterial colonies increase they'll choke it out. The cyano was just making use of the extra nutrients while it had a chance.

[joelb]

i dosed myself with vadka and all my polyps,, well, actually everything in my tank started to double in about 2 hours time...i even had 2 tanks! it was amazing! but then the next day i only had one again.:)

[rz1a]

I started noticing pretty quick while I was ramping up the dosage and it increased gradually, but didn't see full effects for a couple weeks.

That green stuff is probably cyano, as your other bacterial colonies increase they'll choke it out. The cyano was just making use of the extra nutrients while it had a chance.

dosed .06 CC today, tomorrow i double it

i noticed some cyano. do you think itll just end up going away, or will it explode even more and be around for a while before its gone?

[Joshua]

dosed .06 CC today, tomorrow i double it

i noticed some cyano. do you think itll just end up going away, or will it explode even more and be around for a while before its gone?

Once your nutrient load starts dropping it should choke out the cyano.

[rz1a]

Just added .05 mL will add .01 mL in 20 more minutes and will add another .06 mL in an hour or two to make a total of .12 mL. im trying to spread out the dosage

just for any of you who are curious, i'm using one of those diabetic insulin needles. it says 1/2 CC. when you look at it, the lowest number will say 5 which is .005 CC, the next is 10 which .01 CC; highest number is 50 CC which is .05 CC.

From what i understood, a cc and a mL are the same (got it from yahoo answers lol). So if i were to dose .1 mL id have to dose 2 of these syringes or .05 CC twice.

[rz1a]

dosed another .12 mL today

[sly fox]

in an article in coral magazine it was saying that vodka dosing may actually increase bacteria that are toxic to people in the tank as well, and one poor german guy cut his hand in the tank and got blood poisoning...

not trying to put you off, just thought id mention it...

[rz1a]

today i added .12 mL

[rz1a]

in an article in coral magazine it was saying that vodka dosing may actually increase bacteria that are toxic to people in the tank as well, and one poor german guy cut his hand in the tank and got blood poisoning...

not trying to put you off, just thought id mention it...

i read somewhere that theres a possibility that bad bacteria will show up as well; thing is that the bad bacteria will still consume nitrates and phosphates (from what i remember). i cant say what the bad bacteria does though

[Joshua]

Yes, it increases all types of bacteria. Fish and corals are at a little higher risk of infection also. Still it only increases bacteria that are already present, you could get an infection at any time without the vodka also.

[bigmoe21]

you could get an infection at any time without the vodka also.
stupid zooanthids gave me a crazy rash on my arm..keep forgetting what they can do, but i didnt even touch them just picked up the rock they were on...

[rz1a]

stupid zooanthids gave me a crazy rash on my arm..keep forgetting what they can do, but i didnt even touch them just picked up the rock they were on...

zoanthids gave you that rash?

[rz1a]

just added .12 mL today-- so far what i have noticed is that algae on the glass is less. before i would always have to scrape some algae off, but now it doesnt seem like it comes back as fast? on the other hand, algae on the sand is coming around. i stopped using my phosban reactor to feed the bacteria

[rz1a]

added .12 today, i will increase dosage starting tomorrow

[rz1a]

today it increased added .12 and .5 mL

[ErikH]

zoanthids gave you that rash?


Palytoxin is very toxic. Of course it depends on the paly.

[bigmoe21]

not sure what type of zoo they were but yup i just reached my hands in the tank and grabbed the rock they were on and within a minute my arms started burning and there was a few spots of irritation on my arms, but with some soap and water they eventually went away..but not for a few hours.

[Richard]

I use Coral & Liverock Stimulator made by Hiatt instead of vodka. Basically doing the same thing but much safer IMO.

If you are concerned about harmful bacteria you might consider using probiotic bacterial additive for a period of time. Regular use of these have been shown to push out harmful bacteria such as vibrio and mycobacteria. You are basically allowing these non pathogenic bacteria to outcompete the potentially harmful species. It requires regular dosing over a period of time though. There are a number of brands out there but here is a link to one that will give you the basic idea....
http://www.keetonaqua.com/pdf/LymnoStudy_brochure_2007.pdf

[rz1a]

i'd be kind of worried about adding something like that without knowing what they do to corals. is that for SW? i think ZEO has some of the bacteria that are helpful but it costs a lot of money to run all of that

i added the increased dosage again today

[Joshua]

Isn't zeo just a more expensive way of dosing vodka?

[rz1a]

i would say it is. to be honest, i havent fully understood or read much into the zeo since i wouldnt be able to even afford it with all the crap they sell just to keep your tank going like that

added another dosage of .12+.5 mL

[rz1a]

just wanted to note that one of my frags is turning a little pale, but all other frags are still retaining their colors-- one or two of my caps have been growing rapidly. weird thing is that the frag that is pale is a tricolor, but i have a colony of tricolor that isnt pale.

green cyano is still there, just read on RC that its common. i want to find out why it comes about.

also just got a superman frag from brian (greenmako) and a texas tort from him. love both of the corals but i love the red and blue from the superman

oh yeah, and coralline algae has started to die. my sump had started growing a lot of it before i dosed, but now the coralline had turned white. in my DT the rocks havent been affected by it though.

[rz1a]

just added another .12+.5 its been almost a month since ive done a water change, im going to do that today

[crossxfire2]

If things really start going downhill, I would stop. I'm sure you naturally would, anyway.

[rz1a]

im going to maintain the dosage instead of increasing it another .5 mL im going to leave the dosage for a couple more weeks to see how it goes and see if i need to decrease it



added another dosage today of .12+.5

[rz1a]

added .12 and .5 mL

[longhorna95]

wouldnt it be cheaper to just use cal, alk doosing chemiclas?

[Joshua]

wouldnt it be cheaper to just use cal, alk doosing chemiclas?

Completely separate things, you still have to maintain everything else.

[rz1a]

looks like im back to dosing, but this time on my 75 to lower nitrates. im starting out with 80ppm, ive done water changes but still hasnt brought them down

im using rowaphos, added my skimmer which has been working well, started adding biodigest prodibio couple days ago, and started on my 2nd day of vodka dosing

in the previous tank it worked too well, but i think i ended up with a monoculture of one bacteria. supposedly the biodigest will balance the type of bacteria available, and its added every 15 days. i bought the one with 6 vials

on my 28 the vodka dosing was competing with the caulepra and began killing it off. it was incredibly hard for the caulepra to grow. couple corals stopped growing, colors were pale on some SPS corals

it all went down hill when i left to NY on a trip and thought that vodka dosing wouldnt make a difference for that week i was gone.. i was wrong. came back to a tank with nothing but caulepra and algae

[rz1a]

i dont know when i started dosing vodka exactly. right now my tank is at 20ppm

i can either contribute it to changing out about 25g of water or the Biodigest+Vodka

hopefully i can get them down to 10ppm in a few more weeks. so this time if it goes down ill know for sure its because of the vodka and biodigest

[marshall.read]

interesting thread ruben. sounds like you've seen some promising results. I'm tempted to give a try myself.

[rz1a]

it takes a while to get things going, but its like anything else out there. with zeo you have to wait months before noticing results and look how expensive it costs just to get your system in a low nutrient envrionment just to end up buying expensive bottles of the nutrients that you just took out to add back!! with a biodenitrator, you have to let it establish before noticing any results, even then it takes a while

im trying out this new strategy of Vodka+Biodigest since supposedly the Biodigest contains various types of bacteria and should balance out the bacteria every 15 days instead of making a monoculture.

skimmer has been working nicely and picking up extra junk when started dosing vodka.

if by the end of the month i can take it down to 10ppm then this will be the best way of doing things and ill post back results

[rz1a]

bumping this up for a friend. instructions are there in the beginning. if you do end up dosing, just make sure you use something accurate to measure the amount like a diabetic's insulin needle that has it in half a CC which is half a ml.

this will reduce the nitrates and phosphates and you can end up telling if your SPS are going to die or need food when they begin turning pale--- at that point youll need to add amino acids or try to cut back on the dosage, maybe even feed the fish a little extra so they can have some nitrate and phosphate to feed on

protein skimmer will be pretty important for oxygen and taking the bacteria out, gl.

[rz1a]

oh and you can go to Holiday liqour or something and buy the 80% vodka that DOES NOT have anything added for taste. i think one of the brands ive been using is called Rikaloff, has a giant bird on it that looks like the trans-am bird. 9.99 for 1 liter

[glennr1978]

Time to bump an old thread!! I just started dosing vodka about an hour ago. Wish me luck!!

[Joshua]

Time to bump an old thread!! I just started dosing vodka about an hour ago. Wish me luck!!

You or your tank? :p

[glennr1978]

The tank, I'm more of a bourbon guy.