Newb has questions - first tank ever.

[atxchris1234]

So, I got the tank yesterday (Sunday) 30 gallon. Added my tank mounted filter, heater (76degrees), lights, water pump, substrate, mixed in my salt water in buckets to make sure it was dissolved, filled up the tank, turned everything on and now its sitting there empty but looking nice. It was foggy for a while, but I did a good job of pre cleaning the substrate before I added it, so within a couple hours it was clear as glass. Beautiful! Can’t wait for rock, and fish!

My question is, I checked my salt levels this morning (after letting it do its thing yesterday and last night) and found that I was a little light on salt, so I added some and will re check it today after work. Im new to all of the ph testing and nitrates, nitrites and all of that stuff, so all I did last night in the way of testing was to check my water hardness. It said in the test kit that I should add between 6-12 drops to the test vial and it will turn from red to green, once it does so this tells me my water hardness. Well, after 30 drops it was still red, so I gave up on that.

My question is, at what point should I add live rock? As I know this is the next step in the “cycle” I want to do this correctly, and certainly don’t want to kill my rock. What is the “key” to adding rock, in other words, what needs to balance out, or be tested? Is it as simple as – once the salt levels are okay its safe to add the live rock? If so, I guess I’ll be ready to go pretty soon. But if water hardness or other factors need to be taken into consideration I am unaware of this. Looking online in articles and in aquarium books it kind of skips this step… So im looking for guidance here.

The other question is, should I be using an undergravel filter in this tank or will my side hanging filter deal do the trick? If undergravel filtration is needed, I guess I need to know before I go buy $150 worth of live rock. FYI, I plan on running a couple of clowns and invertibrates, no coral (at least not for a while)


I have other questions too, but this will do for now.:bigsmile:



Thanks for any advice!!!!

[Texreefer]

If all you have in there is the coral and the water, then you don't need to worry about CA or ALK levels just amke sure temp and salinity are stable, tehn add some live rock,, right now your tank is sterile with no life. adding live rock will begin the cycle process, in a tank that small I would add all the live rock you will want at first and let is start to cycle, once you are not reading ammonia anymore then I would add a little cleanup crew,. take your time and watch your nitrite an nitrate levels. once your nitrite ****es and starts to drop a bit then i would S L OW L Y add a fish or two.. Im sure others will chime in with more detail

[emac]

hummm now is a good time to add live rock. I probably would not use an under gravel filter, they are a thing of the past. your water levels are going to fluctuate a lot, so while keeping your alk and ph stable is a good thing you probably don't want to put anything in the tank till your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are 0 any ways, and that may take a little while. to be honest with you. you probably don't even need a filter until you start putting some live stock in there. i would just get a good power head to circulate the water and keep up with small weekly waterchanges.

[erikharrison]

Congrats on the biggest money pit of a hobby EVER! Welcome to MAAST as well! The above advice is spot on. The hardest but most crucial thing to do is to wait. Waiting will actually save you alot of hassles. It gives you time to read, read, read, and read some more. The learning curve is extremely steep, but if you take the advice given from people on this site in the open forums, we won't steer you wrong. 30g is a good choice as it will not be too expensive, but you have to be very diligent with water changes once it is up and running after the cycle. The reason I say this is less gallonage = faster and more drastic changes in water quality. What I mean here is, if you have two clowns and a anemone in that tank and compare that to them being in a 240g, you should get the idea. Keep a watchful eye, and be patient!

[Bill S]

One more note. Throw away the hardness part of your kit. It's beyond worthless with SW.

For live rock, try Ed at Phenomenal Aquatics - it may be worth your trip. His live rock is cheap.

You should also be using RO/DI water for making salt water, rather than tap water. You can get it at your LFS, or from other retailers. I think maybe Walmart?

[atxchris1234]

Outstanding, thanks for the help.

With relation to the testing I was doing, apparently I was testing gh instead of kh So, long story short, I was measuring for freshwater by accident and the salt was making the water seem ridiculously hard. Went ahead and tested for the kh at lunch and found that in fact, my water is much too soft. Called Aquatek and they said I need some "coral builder, or... reef builder" I believe thats what they called it.
So, im going to head over after work and have them test my water and tell me where to go from there.

More questions - bstreep - beyond worthless? so the kh and gh don't really matter? RO/DI water, I don't need to drain and start over with this type of water do I?? Can I get away with water changes implementing this type going foreward?

texreefer - You explained my thought process. I would assume, because there is currently no algae, or other naturally formed bacteria in the tank, that I really have nothing to monitor as of now other than temp and salinity. As those two things are the only current factors actually taking place in my tank right now besides circulation, are there any other things that need to be monitored prior to introducing live rock?


And lastly:
Is this the correct idiots guide?

1- Make sure salinity and temp is good.
2- Add rock and monitor ammonia
3- when ammonia is good (1 week to 1 month) add cleanup crew
4- change water frequently once step 2 has taken place
5- add fish slowly, and one at a time


If not, feel free to add to, or suggest a step by step idiots guide of your own, of which I will certainly put to good use :)

And once again, many exuberant thanks!

[JimD]

1- Make sure salinity and temp is good.
2- Add rock and monitor ammonia
3- when ammonia is good (1 week to 1 month) add cleanup crew
4- change water frequently once step 2 has taken place
5- add fish slowly, and one at a time

Thats a good starting point, just keep asking questions and listen to the advice of these guys and you'll be just fine....
Welcome to MAAST!! Oh yaeh.... NITRO RULES! lol

[coraline79]

and the most important thing when starting a new tank is paying an additional 25 bucks to be charter mamber so you can go to cool meeting and win awesome free stuff. I won a goody bag worth about 80 bucks at the last meeting....my first. I call that awesome ROI(return on investment). Also, you get t be a great part of a growing community, that can dig you out of almost any issue in salt.!!! Welcome!

[Bill S]

What I said was that a HARDNESS test kit is for freshwater. Alkalinity is a whole different thing!

Seriously, without anything else in the water, I wouldn't dose anything at this time. Just add a bunch of rock, and take it from there!

[bronck83]

If you used straight tap water from the faucet I think you should drain it & start over with ro/di unfortunately.

[atxchris1234]

If you used straight tap water from the faucet I think you should drain it & start over with ro/di unfortunately.

really?? Can I not just treat the water thats in there?

[JimD]

If you used straight tap water from the faucet I think you should drain it & start over with ro/di unfortunately.

That would all depend on the tds of his tap water...

[JimD]

really?? Can I not just treat the water thats in there?

No, because its the organics and phosphates from most city water supplies that fuel algae blooms . You need to have your tap water tested for whats called, Total Dissolved Solids. I can do that for you, what part of Austin are you at?

[Hydramatic]

That's interesting news to me. I've used nothing but tap water w/Prime in my tanks, fresh or salt, and only ever had diatom and cyano problems(my fault, not the water...)

Now that I have a good skimmer, both are more or less completely eliminated, with anything left over being taken care of by my snails and a quick swipe of the magnet cleaner.


....but then again, I live in New Braunfels and our tap water comes from a spring. It's already fairly good, clean water, and it barely needs to be treated before it hits our faucets.

Austin, I'm not so sure about...I think ya'll drink recycled water sent through treatment plants like Houston...:)

[atxchris1234]

jim, big thanks for offering your help, wish I'd read it sooner! Decided to stop by aquatek after work and after listening to my concerns, convinced me to swap to distilled. I swapped out 90% of the water and here are my new numbers:
temp:72 (new water)
kh: 8.5
ph: 8.0
N02: 0-.25
salinity: 31
S gravity: 1.023

So, overall a promising improvement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if things keep up like this I should be ready for rock soon eh?

Btw, how can I get some cured rock at a good price? One cured rock at aqt was going to set me back $90.

[JimD]

Yeah, rock can be very expensive, I suggest keeping an eye out here in the for sale section or in the venders forum, sometimes they'll post a sale for different items, sometimes live rock. Actually, you can introduce the rock at just about any time, the sooner the better as long as the temp and salinity are at an acceptable level. Since its a new tank, you might want to start with a few pices of un-cured (cheaper) rock to get the cycle started, dont use a fish like a Damsel to do it,youll never get it out after he decides to terrorize your tank. Did Aquatek test for the TDS of your tap water?

[stoneroller]

What kind of lights are you running?

[jtrux]

I use tap water as well but i'm sure i'll use that other stuff eventually but i've never had an issue with it so I don't see why anyone else would either.

[emac]

new braunfels water is horrible i've tested the tap and you can acutally get a visible phos. param. and the nitrates are at 10 ppm 0_o. switching to distilled was a good choice.

[hobogato]

hair algae, cyano, dinoflagellates - all are issues that are usually recurring if you are using tap water.

[atxchris1234]

Im running whatever lights came with my kit. Sorry, but I am not sure.

Should I buy uncured liverock and go through the curing process myself or should I buy cured rock?

Is any better or worse for establishing a good tank?

[tony]

welcome to maast, looks like you are off to a great start

cured vs uncured seems to be personal preference and whether you are patient or not. neither is really better or worse in my opinion their are pros/cons of both

2 of my best investments in this hobby have been an RO filter and a refractometer. both will save you in the long run.

[brewercm]

You'll have a little die off even with cured and if you are using it to cycle your tank it really doesn't matter. If you do use uncured I'd recommend putting a skimmer on there to get rid of the nasty stuff. It sounds like from your setup you'd need a hang on type since it doesn't sound like you are using any type of sump.

Once you have this all up and going study very hard when you get ready to change out your lights (and you will) to make sure you get what you really want from the first time. Not sure if that's really possible but try hard to get what you really "need" and want.l

[atxchris1234]

Im really enjoying the depth of this hobby. Any hobby that takes a while to master is worth doing in my opinion. The advice here is outstanding, thanks again.

More questions -

1.) As the RO filter is a bit out of my price range (other hobbies) is it acceptable to just keep buying distilled for water changes? I see the benefit of being able to create my own high quality water, but if a guy is on a budget is h-e-b distilled good enough for now?

2.) Prob. a stupid question, but... is there any wrong way to mix water? I bought some 5 gal buckets and what im doing is just filling them with distilled water, mixing in my salt (using the good old fashioned hand stir method) until I can't "feel" anymore salt. Once I get to that point I just add it to the tank. Is this correct or should I allow the water more time to fully dissolve the salt? Let it sit overnight?

3.) How would a refractometer be used and for what purpose? Does this allow you to actually "see" whats going on inside your water? Basically... a microscope? If so, what are you looking for and why?

[erikharrison]

1.) You should be fine.
2.) Put a powerhead in the water and leave it for about 30 minutes after you hand stir. This should be fine until you purchase a RO/DI unit.
3.) You drip water on the plate and flip down the press. When you look into it, there are marked lines that show different grades of salinity. You will see a definite line indicating your tank's salinity. A Floating glass hydrometer is always accurate and they run about 10 dollars.

[tony]

Im really enjoying the depth of this hobby. Any hobby that takes a while to master is worth doing in my opinion. The advice here is outstanding, thanks again.

More questions -

1.) As the RO filter is a bit out of my price range (other hobbies) is it acceptable to just keep buying distilled for water changes? I see the benefit of being able to create my own high quality water, but if a guy is on a budget is h-e-b distilled good enough for now?



2.) Prob. a stupid question, but... is there any wrong way to mix water? I bought some 5 gal buckets and what im doing is just filling them with D/O water, mixing in my salt (using the good old fashioned hand stir method) until I can't "feel" anymore salt. Once I get to that point I just add it to the tank. Is this correct or should I allow the water more time to fully dissolve the salt? Let it sit overnight?


3.) How would a refractometer be used and for what purpose? Does this allow you to actually "see" whats going on inside your water? Basically... a microscope? If so, what are you looking for and why?



i ran my tank on water bought from one of those water dispensers in a parking lot for over a year (windmill) it wasnt perfect but it worked and better than tapwater (IIRC i paid $.25/gallon)

i also use the 5g bucket/hand stir method as well. just make sure that is only thing you use the bucket for

refractometer will give you the most accurate salinity reading. a floating hydrometer will also get you pretty close

[jehudson]

B&B has cheapest RO water of any LFS I know of. I paid .29 cents a gal Sunday(please correct me if I'm wrong folks ... no pride here). I've been using the water mill, but I'd rather go to a LFS.

[atxchris1234]

Just got back from lunch, ran home and checked my numbers while I was at it.


Temp-78 (yesterday 72)
kh - 7.5 (yesterday 8.5)
ph 7.7 (yesterday 8.0)
salinity - 34 (yesterday 31)
s Gravity - 1.025 (yesterday 1.023)


Looking at the numbers, my kh and ph is looking better than yesterday, while my salinity for some reason has gone up. Hmmm. Could this have something to do with water temp? It must, as its the only variable that has changed (to my limited knowledge)
Considering I am looking to get live rock tonight, do I need to give it more time and make sure my salinity levels are more consistant before I risk my high dollar rock? Or is it okay to simply buy the rock, add some water and be done with it?


Just want to know how to do this the right way.
Thanks

[brewercm]

I've found that not all salt is completely dissolved for quite a while and it can go up another couple of points after mixing for about 24 hours. Not a huge problem on a large tank but on a smaller one can cause you problems. I've gotten to where I let it mix for at least 24 hours and getting stable before adding to tank.

[erikharrison]

B&B has cheapest RO water of any LFS I know of. I paid .29 cents a gal Sunday(please correct me if I'm wrong folks ... no pride here). I've been using the water mill, but I'd rather go to a LFS.

I think that's for premixed saltwater too, isn't it?

[jehudson]

I think that's for premixed saltwater too, isn't it?
I think that was 1.00/gal (same disclaimer as above). Not bad, though.

[RedDragon]

welcome to MAAST I know this place sure did help me out alot when I first started and still dose....have fun in this new to you hobby....

[atxchris1234]

Thanks for the hospitality, great forum.

So, I went over to River City Aquatics after work yesterday and picked up my first live rock. Needless to say I was very excited to finally get it setup in my tank (its finally coming together). The rock that I got was fully cured according to the nice and patient woman that helped me. In addition to purchasing some rock I also got some reef buffer as well.

After adding the rock I let it sit overnight, woke up this morning, checked ph and kh (still low) and added some reef buffer. Then checked my levels.

Temp 77
KH -9-10
ph 8.6
ammonia - 0
CO2 - 0,6
Salt levels - perfect

Probablly important to note that my levels were checked immediately after adding the buffer, therefore the validity of these numbers is likely questionable at best. I will check them again at lunch.
There is some die off on one of the rocks that had purple stuff growing on it, but the other rocks not only had nothing growing on them, but they all appear to be clean.

My questions for today are,

1.) If I wanted to add more live rock (she said I could add 10lbs more and I was at my limit) would this ultimately set me back in the cycling process by producing a whole new set of ammonia?

Currently my ammonia is at 0. I would assume this is because 1.) my rock is cured 2.) My rock has just been introduced 12 hours ago.

2.) Is there a chance that because my rock is cured that my ammonia ****e will not happen? Or if it does, that it will be brief? If so, would I then introduce hardy fish as a way to build ammonia and get the cycle going?

Thanks again maast and maast users!

[jehudson]

If so, would I then introduce hardy fish as a way to build ammonia and get the cycle going?

When you introduce a fish ... don't start with Damsels. IMO you will regret it later. They are territorial and mean.

[MissT]

the liverock will cycle the tank for you. You shouldn't notice a sp ike in the water params once you get the rock fully cured in you system and start adding fish.
I don't think it can be stressed enough though, to TAKE YOUR TIME, you'll be glad you did in the end.
Good Luck!

[erikharrison]

TAKE YOUR TIME, you'll be glad you did in the end.
Good Luck!

TAKE YOUR TIME, you'll be glad you did in the end.
Good Luck!

TAKE YOUR TIME, you'll be glad you did in the end.
Good Luck!

TAKE YOUR TIME, you'll be glad you did in the end.
Good Luck!

TAKE YOUR TIME, you'll be glad you did in the end.
Good Luck!

Don't forget, take your time. Best advice ever.

[Bill S]

What Erik said...

[JimD]

If so, would I then introduce hardy fish as a way to build ammonia and get the cycle going?

When you introduce a fish ... don't start with Damsels. IMO you will regret it later. They are territorial and mean.

Ok, dont use fish to cycle your tank, rely on the die-off from the rock, cured or not! Eventually the ammonia will top out and then begin to drop, when its at zero, you can begin to add a clean-up crew...


Temp 77
KH -9-10
ph 8.6
ammonia - 0
CO2 - 0,6
Salt levels - perfect

Explain the Co2 level, what in your opinion is a perfect salt level? Temp could be slightly warmer and you Kh is perfect.

[atxchris1234]

Jim,
salt level was 32 3hrs ago, which according to the gauge is perfect ( feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)
The co2 is listed exactly how it read on the chart which came with the test kit.
My kh has dropped back to 8 again.
I still have zero ammonia and zero nitrites.

[crossxfire2]

Now wait a second, even if he waited for his tank to cycle due to the dying of some of the rock, wouldn't he still experience a mini-cycle when he adds his first fish? I am probably wrong, but I'm guessing that there would be minimal nitrogen-fixing bacteria within the system. Therefore, the tank would then again have a mini cycle until the bacteria compensated. (Don't quote me)

[MissT]

IF you are patient with letting the tank cycle properly and don't add fish and cleanup crew the day after you are reading no ammonia, no nitrites... in other words, do everything as SLOWLY as you can possibly stand, you will be on track to having a successful reef tank.
Read this to pass your days:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/SmokeStew20/reefaquarium2large.jpg
file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpg

[atxchris1234]

Okay, Slow as possible, got it.


Question...

How long is it going to take for some ammonia to start showing? as of now im still at zero ammonia. Is there a trick to at least starting the cycle? Should I scrub all the dead stuff off of the live rock? that would certainly get some waste flowing about would it not?
Should I remove the paper filter? Maybe its filtering out too much waste already...
The suspense is killing me here..

[ismvel]

I have always put a cocktail shrimp (the frozen ones you find at the supermarket to eat) in the tank for a couple of days, and that kicks off the cycle. I have never put any live animals in the tank to start the cycle.

Or you can just feed your tank, that will cause an ammonia ****e because there is nothing there to eat it up.

[Bill S]

Don't forget, take your time. Best advice ever.


Did you miss this post? :shades:

Seriously, plan on this process taking WEEKS, not days. Otherwise, just reach into your wallet, take out a handful of $20 bills, and tear them up. There are no real shortcuts in this hobby.

[stoneroller]

I'll reiterate the point, patience is the reefer's best friend.

[erikharrison]

Chris, test once a week. This is the hardest part, yet most important part. You have to be able to walk away from it and not over analyze. I know it's the worst, but you have so much to learn, I would read up on as much literature as you can. If you feel the need to buy a fish, buy a book instead. There is no instant gratification in this hobby, everything comes with growth! :) Test once a week, for a couple of months. You may not ever have a ****e, but this gives time for the live rock to seed the rest of your tank and let all of your beneficial microfauna grow.

[ismvel]

Did you miss this post? :shades:

Seriously, plan on this process taking WEEKS, not days. Otherwise, just reach into your wallet, take out a handful of $20 bills, and tear them up. There are no real shortcuts in this hobby.
Bill is right, I have had 3 tanks...2 of which I feel I have done correctly...and I cycled those tanks for about 5 weeks each before I knew I was ready, and to verify, I took my water to LFS to test.

The new tank I set up here in the next couple of months will be no different. I have had rocks curing in the garage for a couple of weeks now...and I have a 29 gallon filled with about 40 - 50 lbs of rock. I will throw my rock in, a couple peices from the 29 gallon and let nature takes its course for the following 5 weeks (possibly a little shorter because the rocks are already curing, but I am in NO rush)...

[merlin0883]

possible to take 1-2 wks for ammonia to register. More likely, 4-6 days, if ur rock is indeed cured well, but there is stuff in it that will decay, if u give it time.