Sump Plumbing Help...OVERFLOW???

[Mr Cob]

I spent the weekend building my plumbing for my sump.

Specs:

Display:
120gal

Sump:
30-40gal Oceanic Drilled Trickle Filter converted to a sump/refugium with an Oceanic in sump skimmer raised up to support more water. Sump has 2 overflow chambers and a third chamber of water that is skimmed and sent back up to the main display…actually I have it setup so that only maybe half the water is skimmed from the refugium and the rest is just filtered.

Return:
Mag 5 return setup external and pushing 5’….about 300gph with PVC pipes and a Ball Valve

Intake:
Pro Clear Overflow Prefilter 60/75/125 (u-tube) up to 600gph, tubing/pvc pipe with a Ball Valve

Questions:
I’m so afraid to turn anything on because I do not understand a few things, even after a ton of research and reading melve’s reef:

1) How do I determine the water level in my sump/refugium?
2) How do I know that my display is not going to overflow?
3) How do I know that my display is not going to be drained too quickly and overflow my sump?
4) Will my u-tube Overflow overflow ever?
5) Should I use the pre-filter on the overflow or remove it?

I do not have the cash at the moment to purchase an Auto top-off.

Thanks for your help. I greatly appreciate your time and expertise.
-Rob-

[RayAllen]

You have to take a few risk to get it started correctly. For your questions

1.) Best way to determine you water level in your sump is to have it half full. Start everything (pump) and have the water moving. Then shut it all off and if your sump is about to overflow you know your water level is to high (start the pump again so that it does not actually overflow). Once you get to where you can shut everything down and it does not over flow you know what level you are safe at and mark it with a permanant marker. **You have to drill a hole at the water surface on your return line or this will not work** To get your overflow going you have to use airline tubing. Insert one end into the U-Tube with it in the overflow suck the airout and this will force the water through which will make the gravity do the rest.

2.) A mag 5 will not make you 120g overflow unless you have something blocking the overflow. Your tank would only overflow if the pump was too strong and the overflow couldnt keep up or if the overflow it self stops syphoning.

3.) Your display will not overflow into your sump to fast with a mag 5. Its also important to know what your overflow is rated for (GPH)

4.) NO but it is important that the pump GPH is strong enough to keep constant flow so that air is not allowed to gather in the U-Tube

** Important on your return line drill a hole at the waters surface so incase you do have a power outage or turn off your self this prevents the tank from continously draing into the sump. Basically air will get sucked into the small hole stopping the water from flowing anymore. VERY IMPORTANT to do this.**

[RayAllen]

Hopefully all this make sense. Very simple process, just try not to over think it.

[erikharrison]

Fill your sump up, and just barely cover the return with water. Fill it enough so it doesn't suck in air. Make sure that your U-tube is siphoned and ready to go. You can test that by filling the display with water. If it works right, it will go down into the sump. If it fills with no drainage, your overflow is not siphoned. Once all of that is just right, turn it on. Watch the display to make sure it is not filling, it should stay at the level that it is at. If you start sucking air, fill it more until it stops. DO NOT OVERFILL, yet.... Once it is not sucking air and the whole thing is running, unplug the mag 5. Let the water fill the sump. Top it off to the level at which you are comfortable with while it is off. Plug it back in. Once it is running again, you can now mark the level of the water while it is running. As long as you don't pass that line, it will not get higher than it was when it was unplugged. If you need further help, call me... 885-6214.

The prefilter is good if you have a sump that you don't want to get dirty with organics. I have hermits etc, in my sump which rely on food coming from the display.

I highly doubt that your sump will overflow, the return is what stops and starts the flow inbetween the display and sump.

Your U-Tube will probably never overflow.

[erikharrison]

haha... jinx!

[Mr Cob]

** Important on your return line drill a hole at the waters surface so incase you do have a power outage or turn off your self this prevents the tank from continously draing into the sump. Basically air will get sucked into the small hole stopping the water from flowing anymore. VERY IMPORTANT to do this.**[/quote]

Ray, thanks for adressing my issues so quickly. You are very thorough. In your above comment how do I do this if my return is external? My sump is drilled on the side at the bottom of the tank.

I'm confused on this part...???:Timeout:

Thanks.

[erikharrison]

What he's talking about is the return tubing that is inside the tank. It's usually blakc loc line, with an adjustable head. drill a hole in the locline right above the water's surface. 1/8" will do fine. Basically, if you lose power, the hole in the side will draw air. If not, gravity and the siphon keeps the flow going, but in reverse.

[Mr Cob]

haha... jinx!

Man...you guys are fast!!! Thanks for the help Erik...and for posting your number...I saved it to my phone in case of an emergency. Thanks for the help line :)
-Rob-

[Mr Cob]

What he's talking about is the return tubing that is inside the tank. It's usually blakc loc line, with an adjustable head. drill a hole in the locline right above the water's surface. 1/8" will do fine. Basically, if you lose power, the hole in the side will draw air. If not, gravity and the siphon keeps the flow going, but in reverse.

Ok so drill a hole in the return tubing that is inside the display tank at 1/8" just above the desired water surface. Mine is all pvc...custom built.

So....and tell me why water won't shoot out of this little hole?

Thanks.

[RayAllen]

basically if your return comes over the top of the tank and or the tank is not actually drilled for the return the you will need to drill a hole at the waters surface. Heres a pic of my over the top return. The white pvc is my return, under the eggcrate my water line is about 1/2" below and thats where I drilled my air hole.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b108/frogguy1/IMG_1177.jpg

[RayAllen]

lol, water will shoot out of the hole when the pump is started but drill it at a approprate angle so that the hole wont shoot water striaght up. Ive done that before and water was shooting on my couch. Once the tank is full enough it will simply shoot into the tank which doesnt matter. You are also welcome to give me a call 688-9014

Ray

[erikharrison]

I meant a 1/8" hole should be drilled. :)

[Mr Cob]

I meant a 1/8" hole should be drilled. :)

yeah i got that part. I was just confused about the hole shooting water.

[Mr Cob]

lol, water will shoot out of the hole when the pump is started but drill it at a approprate angle so that the hole wont shoot water striaght up. Ive dont that before and water was shooting on my couch. Once the tank is full enought it will simply shoot into the tank which doesnt matter. You are also welcome to give me a call 688-9014

Ray

Thanks Ray. I greatly appreciate the pic and now I'm even more nervouse about this darn little hole...angle.. AWWWW too much room for error.

My wife is gonna kill me if I screw this up...I have this picture of all of my plumbing leaking, the little hole squirting all over my lights...hard wood floors flooded with saltwater etc etc etc...

As you can tell I'm not much of a DIYer but it sure is fun along with a bit of an adrenaline rush too!

Thanks for the help guys!!!

[RayAllen]

hopefully you dont get into to much trouble. My wife just rolled her eyes as the water shot accross the room. I tried not to laugh,lol.

[Mr Cob]

hopefully you dont get into to much trouble. My wife just rolled her eyes as the water shot accross the room. I tried not to laugh,lol.

Classic...LOL

[aquasport24]

I drilled 2 holes on mine, just in case a snail plug the other hole while you not there to see it. And i had extra pump with hose connected to it while i stared up the system for the first time.Point one end to the sink or outside. You use this set up as a back up until you know for sure that things are working.I also used a powerhead to prime the u-tube, it is alot better than siphon it with your mouth.(sw doesnt taste like ozarka water at all..lol). I primed my sump a lillte difrrent , i siphoned the u-tube to the dry sump and then i filled the the sump with R/O water as i needed to the predetermine level.You may have to go back and forth to adjust the inner box.

[erikharrison]

Are you having fun yet Rob? :bigsmile:

[Mr Cob]

Are you having fun yet Rob? :bigsmile:

My name is Rob and it's been 1 hour since I last looked at my tank....

LOL

Yes Erik, I'm an addict and I love it! Fun, fun, fun!

I have everything for my sump hooked up and I just need to get my glass top for it cut some time in the next week (skimmer doesn't fit) and purchase my sand and LR for the tank too...then I'll give it a try.

I'm still very nervous but I think with you guys helping me out I atleast know what I should be doing and looking for.

Thanks a BUNCH! I think it's time to pay my membership fees :)

[Mr Cob]

I drilled 2 holes on mine, just in case a snail plug the other hole while you not there to see it.

Pretty good idea...

I think I'll do the same, Thanks!

[GeoB]

I think you have all the info you need, but since it sounds critical that you get it right the first time I’ll restate some things and add my 2 cents.

Like was said before, add water to the sump through the tank, letting it go through the overflow to the sump. This way your tank will be at or just below its operating level and you can check your siphon breaks on the return lines to make sure they are at or just above the tank waterline. You can also check to make sure the drain lines from the overflow to the sump are not leaking or anything.

Fill your skimmer to its operating level before filling your sump.

Have on hand plenty of towels and an easy way to remove water from the tank. Probably won't need them, but better safe than sorry.

Make sure you can turn the return pump on and off easily while you are first setting up. I use a surge protector power strip within easy reach so I can just flip the switch rather than grabbing a plug with a wet hand. Watch the tank level closely at first and be ready to turn the pump off if the tank is about to overflow. If you do have to shut it off, IMMEDIATELY watch the sump level. If your returns don’t break siphon, your sump might over flow. If it looks like this might happen, turn the pump back on and start removing water from the system. You may have to turn the pump on and off a few times to keep the tank or the sump from overflowing while you are removing water.

When setting up, don’t add water to the sump while the return pump is running. While the pump is running there needs to be enough empty volume in the sump to catch all of the back flow when the return pump is turned off. It is very tempting to add water to the sump if the pump starts to run dry and make a lot of noise, but if you add too much you will get an overflow when the pump turns off.

It is a little difficult to get u-tube siphons fully primed. As long as they are mostly primed and there is enough flow, they usually fix themselves in a minute or so, but your tank level may be a little higher and your sump level a little lower during this short period. Jostling them a little can help get the last of the air out.

[Mr Cob]

Thanks GeoB!!!

[crossxfire2]

Do yall have any pics of your whole return line, and overflow line? I am about to set one up, too!

[erikharrison]

I did it easy, plastic tubing from HD. The kind used for beer bongs :) The overflow uses spa flex, looks like an old vacuum hose.

[crossxfire2]

I did it easy, plastic tubing from HD. The kind used for beer bongs :) The overflow uses spa flex, looks like an old vacuum hose.

The see-through kind? Also, did you connect your return line to pvc? My return will have to travel up and above the back of the tank, and dump into the top of the water line because my tank is not drilled. What would be the best way of going about doing this?

So, I will have my siphon box, which re-starts if the power were to turn back on after a power outage, right? Then I use any old plastic (the correct diameter, of course) tubing from Home Depot to drain the water into the sump. For the return, I connect the tubing to the pump, and the other end to some pvc which can hang on the back of the display, which will dump the water bank into the display? Of course, I will drill the holes that draw air into the line in case of a power outage.. is this all correct? Are there any flaws?

[GeoB]

I don’t know if it is the best way, but here’s how I’ve done it. For going over the top of the tank with the return line you can use two 90 degree pvc elbows to make a U and maybe a third to direct the return water horizontally into the tank. You don’t need to glue the third one which will allow you to adjust the direction of the flow in the tank. Or instead of the third elbow you can use a ¾” threaded adapter and a loc-line. Water doesn’t like to turn, so to maximize flow I usually go up a size for the elbows (if the return line is ¾” then I’ll use 1” elbows). Between the U and the return pump you can use a hose adapter then clear vinyl tubing. You can use all hard pvc, but this sometimes creates vibration/noise issues. Using a return line that is a size or two larger than the pump outlet will increase flow a lot (if your pump has a ½” outlet, use a ¾” or maybe even a 1” return line). Use hose clamps for all of your hose connections and pvc tape for all threaded connections.

For the drain lines I’ve used the spa flex as well as hard pvc and flexible pvc and combinations of all three. It might depend on your setup as for what will work best.

The overflow siphon should stay fully primed when flow stops. If it doesn’t there is a serious problem with the setup. Be sure to check this by turning the return pump off and back on again.

[Bill S]

Speaking of hose clamps, don't use the ones from HD or Autozone, etc. Go to a Marine or Boating store and buy them there. They are the same price, but the marine clamps have a stainless steel screw in them, rather than chrome plated mild steel. It may take 6 months, but you WILL notice a difference! In a year, the HD ones will be completely rust encrusted.

Oh yeah, and as noted above, go up a size with hard plumbing. A jump to 1" from 3/4" gives you twice the volume (the piR2 thing...), which helps overcome the losses in elbows.

[crossxfire2]

So I can obtain hose adapters from Home depot I assume. Am I correct? Also, is it bad to use clear tubing for the overflow? Is spaflex quieter maybe?

[Mr Cob]

So I can obtain hose adapters from Home depot I assume. Am I correct? Also, is it bad to use clear tubing for the overflow? Is spaflex quieter maybe?

If light will get to the clear hose then it will begin to build up algae which could slow your flow over a period of time.

[caferacermike]

Even go so far as to impress and confuse the guy at West Marine by asking/demanding 316L stainless steel. Grades 303, 304, 308 are all typical consumer grades of stainless, they all still contain iron. Not alot but enough to start the oxidization, rusting, process. Once it begins it will spread like cancer and eat away at the clamp. 316L is a medical grade, implantable, stainless that all of the iron has been blown out during the casting. By leaving in a small amount of iron it makes the metal easier to machine. Stainless kitchen knives are generally 304ss as it is easier to sharpen. It does not hold it's edge as long as it could but the ease of the end user to sharpen is a larger benefit. How many of your stainless knives and utensils come out of the sink with rust spots after a while? Quite a few of them. That expensive ss chef knife you bought that sat in the bottom of the sink for a few days seems to get little rust spots all over, those are where the iron bits remained.

[tomanero]

That's why I love plastic clamps.
No rust.
Easy to put on and take off.

[GeoB]

So I can obtain hose adapters from Home depot I assume. Am I correct?

You can find them at Home Depot or Lowes near where they sell vinyl tubing. They are white plastic, threaded on one end and barbed on the other and come in individual pkgs. Look in the pvc section for a threaded bushing if you need to go from slip pvc to threads.