New sump refugium question

[Hanali]

So today I picked up a new sump from Stephen and it is great. Needs some cleaning and minor mods but it will be perfect for my tank.

So here is the newest issue in me building a tank that will hopefully fall apart less while on those long work trips.

What goes in a refugium?

I have seen "Live Sand", which I will pickup from a LFS, soon. Calurpa, which I have less than a fist full that I can start with.



Any other live stock I should be worried about or any other plants?



Should I get one of those pod packages like from here? http://www.reefnutrition.com/



Will the live sand come with bristle worms or do I need to find them?



Thanks a ton for your help so far.

Kim

[erikharrison]

Deep Sand Beds (DSBs) (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm) are the way to go here along with some good macro. I am going to be somewhat of a devils advocate here when I say that caulerpa is not the right choice of macro. Caulerpa will take over your tank if it gets in the display and it can also go sexual in your tank. Chaeto is your best bet. For aesthetics, you can employ the use of mangroves, but for the to be entirely effective you would need quite a few of them. You will need to run a light over your fuge opposite the light cycle of your display. This will help with any ph/alk swings throughout the night.

As far as your sandbed goes, I would recommend getting cups of sand from some established tanks. If you want to order some GOOD stuff full of life for your tank go to www.GARF.org (http://www.GARF.org) and order some GARF GRUNGE. That will REALLY kickstart your system.

Remember to run unskimmed water through the fuge at a slow rate of flow. This increases the dwell time of the water in the fuge thus "scrubbing" the water clean. You can just have it overflow back into the sump.

For fun, www.myspace.com/caulerpa (http://www.myspace.com/caulerpa) ... Happy Reefin'!

Nassarius snails are great in a refugium as they like to burrow in the sand and keep at least the top turned.

Lastly, if you are going to re-do the sump, a good idea is to try Pressure Locking Sump Baffles (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm). They look really handy. :)

[hobogato]

nice post erik :wink_smile:

[erikharrison]

I'm honing :) haha.

[Ping]

Bags of live sand are a waste of money in my opinion. Sand becomes bacterially live very quickly.

along with sand from an established system, a small freshly cured live rock placed in a fuge is a big help to jump start and reseed the micro life in a sand-bed.

[Hanali]

Remember to run unskimmed water through the fuge at a slow rate of flow. This increases the dwell time of the water in the fuge thus "scrubbing" the water clean. You can just have it overflow back into the sump.

Hmmm well this will require me to rethink my plumbing some. Should not be to hard.

I will send in an order for grunge, and am in need of more sand.

Thanks for the help.

[chark]

Deep Sand Beds (DSBs) (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm) are the way to go here along with some good macro. I am going to be somewhat of a devils advocate here when I say that caulerpa is not the right choice of macro. Caulerpa will take over your tank if it gets in the display and it can also go sexual in your tank. Chaeto is your best bet. For aesthetics, you can employ the use of mangroves, but for the to be entirely effective you would need quite a few of them. You will need to run a light over your fuge opposite the light cycle of your display. This will help with any ph/alk swings throughout the night.

As far as your sandbed goes, I would recommend getting cups of sand from some established tanks. If you want to order some GOOD stuff full of life for your tank go to www.GARF.org (http://www.GARF.org) and order some GARF GRUNGE. That will REALLY kickstart your system.

Remember to run unskimmed water through the fuge at a slow rate of flow. This increases the dwell time of the water in the fuge thus "scrubbing" the water clean. You can just have it overflow back into the sump.

For fun, www.myspace.com/caulerpa (http://www.myspace.com/caulerpa) ... Happy Reefin'!

Nassarius snails are great in a refugium as they like to burrow in the sand and keep at least the top turned.

Lastly, if you are going to re-do the sump, a good idea is to try Pressure Locking Sump Baffles (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_3/cav3i1/Baffles/baffles.htm). They look really handy. :)

I am not sure I understand about the plumbing. Are you saying to use a separate refugium from the sump? Do you just split the water that would go to the sump? I was going to build my refugium in the sump. With overflow and skimmer to refugium to return in the same sump. Is that bad? What do you suggest?

[sawarf]

What is the reason for running unskimmed H2O Through the sump? Is it just to get it established? Once the dsb is aged and cycled, is it ok to run skimmed H2O through there? Still learning about this stuff... My dsb fuge has been running unskimmed for about 5 months and I have asked for a killer skimmer for Christmas. My phosphate prob is gone as is the ph & alk swing prob.

The sump is designed such that the tank overflow will feed the new skimmer that will empty to the fuge... Is this design ok?

[erikharrison]

I think the reason for this is because the macro will grow more and help remove more garbage if it is unfiltered first. I know most everyone does this opposite and tees off their returns to their fuges. I saw a cryptic fuge at Patricks house that was of easy design and he said that it works great.
What he did was take an old salt bucket, put the lid on, and put a hole in the top for a small bulkhead. I assume he teed off his water coming from the tank to partially run into the cryptic fuge and put another hole lower down on the bucket so it would gravity feed out of it. The bucket was full of sand, about 8 inches or so. From what I have read and heard this will eliminate nitrates, although finding the cause of the nitrates is much more beneficial in any regard.

I know Lee (LHoy) is doing a cryptic fuge, and I am on the verge of actually constructing some sort of demon fuge for my setup. In my current fuge, I can't ever grow any macro, and I can only assume that it's from the lack of nutrients associated with it's growth. Since I can't grow macro, I am going to section it off with the PLSumpBaffles, and run my inlet partially through the unskimmed portion to see if it will even grow.

[erikharrison]

Chark, welcome to MAAST. The answer to that question is this... Run one side of the inlet water to the skimmer side, and opposite that, create the fuge using baffles and have very little of the water run through that side. Let them both overflow into the middle/return area and back up to the display.

I forgot, the main reason that everyone tees off their return is to recycle the water through the fuge.

[hobogato]

In my current fuge, I can't ever grow any macro, and I can only assume that it's from the lack of nutrients associated with it's growth.

or i could be high phosphates from that tap water you are using as that can inhibit macro algae and sps growth - woah - kinda combining a couple of threads here :)

[erikharrison]

true true. Ace, you have seen my tank though. I check for phosphates once a month and my readings are always nil. I also never have algae, no hair, no cyano, nothing. I even called my apartment complex and asked them if they had water filtration in our units and they told me no... I am however happy to NOT have a phosphate problem. I really can't figure it out. I only clean my glass once per week??

[Ping]

It is acceptable to supply water to your fuge from any source. There are pro's and con's to either method.

[lhoy]

I am indeed doing a cryptic fuge (let's say harvesting any algae after a while gets old!!). I have always had a lot of luck with sponges, etc. and after reading a thread at the Central site I became very interested in the concept of the cryptic fuge. Basically, it is a DSB with a raised eggcrate platform with live rock for growing things that do better in the dark (read less heat from lighting, no algae, etc.). The theory is (and no I can't prove anything scientifically here) that the sponges, feather dusters, etc. will clean the water as well.

No matter what type of fuge you run, DON'T put predators in the fuge that defeat the purpose. People often drop off unwanted hitchhikers, sand sifting stars, etc. that eat the things we are trying to grow in a fuge. Calfo's book "Reef Invertebrates" gives an outstanding discussion of this whole topic.

I will post some pics of the my cryptic fuge tomorrow on my build thread. I don't want to hijack this thread because it is a great discussion. I did "T" off from my drain to this fuge and then I have (2) 1/2' bulkheads (they were what was already drilled on the tank) near the top. I put threaded/slip adapters that I turned sideways to skim off the top. This tank is taller than my sump so it gravity feeds the sump. I did this to avoid another pump and I wanted to use the "refuge" section of my sump as a frag tank.

Hope that helps.

Lee

[Ping]

Slow flow through a fuge is an antiquated theory for a fuge with a deep sandbed, Advection with our sandbeds is more efficient with moderate current (Delbeek).

Slow flow works, it just works best in a fuge that is bare bottomed and can be vacumed of detritus.



The Reef Aquarium, Volume three, Delbeek and Sprung

[lhoy]

Yes, the key with the cryptic fuge or a Remote Deep Sand Bed is some moderate flow to keep the detritus from settling on the top of the sand as Ping pointed out.

Lee

[emac]

there are more than enuff bristle worms and such in your live rock. there really is no need to go and spend money on a pod culture they will cover your fuge in due time.

[blueboy]

fuges can serve several functions, they can be used to reduce nitrates(DSB, macro), stabilize parameters such as PH and alk, and /or to provide a natural food source for your tank. what you are trying to accomplish will dictate the design of your fuge. most folks on here who use s fuge seem to use it primarilly to reduce nitrates, so DSB and macro are the order of the day, but liverock rubble is prime for growing pods for fresh fishy treats 24/7.

[Hanali]

there are more than enuff bristle worms and such in your live rock. there really is no need to go and spend money on a pod culture they will cover your fuge in due time.

Yeah so... my live rock. Well it is alive but it has seen better days.

See I have had this tank up for almost 3 years and I am shocked it comes back after a long trip or my lack of knowledge and money. So not sure how much will come back. 2 weeks ago there was some pods and I saw a bristle worm. Now... nothing but I let it go some to rebuild it to this.


fuges can serve several functions, they can be used to reduce nitrates(DSB, macro), stabilize parameters such as PH and alk, and /or to provide a natural food source for your tank. what you are trying to accomplish will dictate the design of your fuge. most folks on here who use s fuge seem to use it primarilly to reduce nitrates, so DSB and macro are the order of the day, but liverock rubble is prime for growing pods for fresh fishy treats 24/7.

So why do I have a fuge... well to up the amount of water for my 55. I was only holding about 5 gallons extra and tonight I loaded 15 more gallons to the tank with the new sump. The fuge is to hopefully stabilize my tank so when I travel for work for a week I can come back and not have it crash. I am not the best about water tests and all that other stuff so trying to make it a hair more tolerant for those times I am not there.

The sump is fashioned in a stair step so one chamber is lower than the one before it. I T'd the line and placed a ball joint to limit the flow.

I am really unsure how to hold the pipe up and over the sump, but that is easy enough.

So far no leaks and I need a TON of sand.

So skimmer and return is working. Looking for sand and Cheato... or however you spell it.

[chark]

Great thread all! ! ! Hanali the picture was helpful.
Although, I have more questions. I plan on running a deep sand bed and macro algae for the reasons mentioned in other posts. Ping mentions that the more modern thought is for more flow. Could I then have all flow go through the refugium? I have about 600 gph through the sump. If not how much flow?

[hobogato]

Could I then have all flow go through the refugium? I have about 600 gph through the sump. If not how much flow?

i have my tank set up this way. that means i have about 2000 gph give or take running across my fuge. total system volume is about 400 gallons.

[Hanali]

i have my tank set up this way. that means i have about 2000 gph give or take running across my fuge. total system volume is about 400 gallons.

So I have a powerhead 802 which only moves 400 gph when maxed. Should I open this baby up and only have one drop off into the sump? I was going to trickle it some instead maybe move like 10 gallons or so.

[hobogato]

i would. just my opinion of course.

[erikharrison]

this thread is awesome. I too appreciate the added info! :)